How can anyone support war? I support our troops but not the war. There is a difference, don't let politicians or morons tell you otherwise.
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How can anyone support war? I support our troops but not the war. There is a difference, don't let politicians or morons tell you otherwise.
You libs must not understand just how much oil is under the worthless Iranian desert. And if we hit them now, it'll be a sucker punch to a soft-bellied pushover.
Beyond that, do you understand that Iranians on the street actually like America? More than almost any other Muslim country. And Iran is a young country, with most of the population under 50. They LIKE us. At least, if we don't fuck up. Which, of course, we probably will, especially if Hillary gets elected.
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I have worked at Walter Reed in DC, and just seeing all of those young people, some younger than myself, with the WORST health care imaginable. You think our nation has bad healthcare? These poor KIDS barely even have adequate health care- the rates of amputations, paralyzations, skin grafts, infection rates, chronic pain, and the rate of Post-traumatic stress disorder is completely unimaginable!
People are all concerned about the welfare of democracy overseas, the fight against terror, the war budget, weapons, ect... Yet a pithying of money, an INSULT of money, is being "spent" on medical "care" for these guys and gals... All this talk about protection of our freedoms and this "great land," yet we leave our injured in the fucking dust.
I've seen labor and delivery rooms more technologically sound than the ORs and ICUs at Walter Reed.
And they sent 20,000 more troops into Iraq? Pardon my language, but how the FUCK does that make sense? BOTH sides of the political spectrum sit in their lofty chairs overseeing this, and deciding this without actually taking any PART in the equation. All they really have to lose is money and approval ratings. How the hell is that freedom?
HELL NO..... And to the 14 people who said yes. Pick up a rifle and go over there. I did and I will never do that again.
War with Iran is just another of Chimp/Cheney's totally batshit crazy ideas. Like destroying Social Security. If total war is induced with Iran, the Straights of Hormuz get bombed to hell and oil delivery becomes impossible. Hello total paralysis of commerce in the US. Keeping us safer huh?? 9/11 occurred on Dubyuh's watch. They have Never succeeded in preventing a single "Terra" attack. What about the anthrax attacks? What ever happened there?
The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty- which country has not signed it
1.USA
2.Iran
3.Israel
USA!!
I am in the army and I don't support the war with Iraq and I won't support a war with Iran. I was in Iraq and I have seen some shit that I doubt anyone here has seen. We are just getting ready for a second generation Vietnam except that there are no drugs.
Israel.....and they have nukes! I would hope no one fires a nuke on Israel, it be one bad day...
im sure the government has sum better drugs now days, you know the ones that erases your memory, after killing a bunch of innocent people.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulkishi
Bush is the most insane world leader ever and the idea that Iran will just roll over and lay down is complete madness. The US should get it's troops back where they belong which is on American soil instead of starting wars where they have no chance of winning.
Warmongers and retards in the whitehouse is not a good situation.
Uh I'm against a war with Iran but just because I don't think it's any of our business.
If we want to really protect our country, the troops we have spread out all over the world should be protecting our border and our country instead of going halfway around the world to play with their toys in the sand.
That's my opinion, though.
I really aggree with a lot of what you say, and you seem to be well informed about what is "really" going on in the world. I just dont aggree with this.
Hmmm don't really understand why you think this, but you have a right to your own thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by palerider7777
Going to Iraq was the wrong move. 1: We were going after those blamed for 9/11 which had no ties to Iraq. 2: You can't just go to war for suspicion someone has WMD. 3: What is a WMD? Could the U$ armed forces be considered a WMD considering all the innocent people we have killed in Iraq? 4: Genocide is just an excuse there are plenty of other situations of Genocide where U$ just turned the other cheek.Quote:
Originally Posted by palerider7777
Bush has managed to lose the war of ideas, at least in the eyes of the billion muslims who may or may not decide to attack us. And lost it to a mass murderer who lives in a cave. Unfucking believable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ezygzy
I could go off for pages and pages.
Let me just give a few reasons:
1. Ahmedinajad did NOT threaten to "wipe Israel off the map." (Zionist/NeoCon lie.)
2. Bush lied to take us to war with Iraq.
3. War means killing people.
4. There is no good reason. A lot of countries have nukes, or are building nukes.
5. Israel has enough nukes to protect itself.
6. Ninety-five per cent of what you see on TV is propaganda.
7. Many war veterans are against the war.
8. 9/11 was an inside job.
9. CFR, Trilateral Commission, PNAC, Bilderberg Group, the military industrial complex, New World Order, WTO, MKUltra, Federal Reserve, CIA, IRS, Rupert Murdoch
BTW you forgot the Jesuit's =).Quote:
Originally Posted by angry nomad
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
No way.
So what if they have nuclear programs? Noone is ever going to start a nuclear war, well not on purpose anyway. Noone is that dumb. In fact if anyone was ever gonna start a nuclear war it would be the USA (not bashing America or nothing but its true)
I can see the propaganda surfacing already in the US media though. Your government is getting ready. You notice the Bin Laden video? Nothing to do with Iran, but in Bush's speech concerning said video he managed to make Iran the main subject, talking about "homeland security" and trying to gain support.
The USA should worry about itself and gets its f**ked up cannabis laws sorted out before they think of any other countries :)
So yeh, I dont support it, but it will happen, 2009 is my prediction.
To anyone who wants a war: You First.
war is a meaningless loss of blood, people, peace and tranquility. isn't bush supposed to be working world peace? wtf is going on then?!
economically, the world might even suffer. iraq - one of the worlds biggets producer of oil's completely buggered up. iran, another country which produces almost all of the worlds oil would be willing to go down but they'll take everyone down.
i've even lived in iran for two years. just like you guys to know that you shouldn't be stereotypical and say iranians themselves are assholes. they're the most welcome people on earth but unfortunately the govt. doesn't welcome anyone.
No. I don't think we need another war.
And who hasn't done this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenaline Rush
I think you and your family should enlist first, then cast your votes.
I get sick of the country with the biggest nuclear arsenal telling others they aren't allowed them, it's so damn hypocritical.
I don't see America imposing any kind of sanction against Isreal because of thier nuclear weapons.
America should take care of business at home before they go throwing thier weight around telling others what they can and can't do ,, isn't that called dictating? and aren't those who do it therefore DICTATORS ?
The US goverment is completely FOS !
A war against Iran would accomlish only one thing for the american people.
It would create more hatred toward us. More hatred = more "terrorists"
The fact that we've been over in the middle east stirring up trouble for more than half a decade is the reason terrorists want to attack us.
Going in and attacking the middle east more is only going to make the problem worse...that is unless we manage to kill everyone over there...in that case the rest of the world would hate us (more than they already do) and we would then end up going to war with them.
Killing terrorists makes about as much sense as killing misquitos with a fly swatter to end malaria.
unfortunatly, alot of the damage has already been done, if we stop everything and end any and all operations in the middle east, it wouldn't make them like us. Basically we are completely fucked if we stay and keep fighting over there, and merely screwed if we don't.
Imagine if china was building military bases in the United states and killing our leaders etc...do you think we'd just sit by and let them do that?
The problem can only be fixed by a foreign policy that supports non-intervention on other countries affairs (the principals America was founded on). We can't lead and police the world at the end of a gun barrel. We can only lead by example.
Ya, let's just let Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong-Il get some nukes because we know they'll play nice right? It's not like he's ever threatened to wipe any other country off the face of the Earth right?Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
You people amaze me. I know America isn't perfect but I know we're the good guys. Someday all you anti-American fucks will get your wish, and when there's total chaos and dictators everywhere have nuclear capabilities and the world's a mess you'll all be crying about how America didn't come save ya.
We should definitely NOT go to war with Iran. Just get the fuck out of there and let other parts of the world deal with their OWN FUCKING PROBLEMS! We don't need to police the world. Just tend to your own shit and let others be. Almost every trouble America is in right now was caused by our blundering into other people's business which pissed people off. Hell, it pisses off Americans and we aren't even the ones being bombed day and night.
beautiful...:4:Quote:
The problem can only be fixed by a foreign policy that supports non-intervention on other countries affairs (the principals America was founded on). We can't lead and police the world at the end of a gun barrel. We can only lead by example.
A war with Iran? How many fucking wars do you people who support it want to get into? Afghanistan -> Iraq -> Iran... then what? Until we take over all of the middle-east, because all you blind people believed the propaganda on the news? Give me a break. You supporters aren't getting a fraction of the truth. If you were, you wouldn't support it... unless you're a fucking globalist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jack Sparrow
What amazes me is that you think you're country is "saving" people,how do you come to that conclusion ?
Civilian Death Toll in Iraq Climbs
Some kind of saving when so many are dead huh?
then if nukes does it for you then I should assume you think we should go to war with Pakistan...Yeah we invade Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan.......We are making more muslims hate us every single day....we win the war on "terror" when there are less of those people willing to blow themselves up....this pre-emtive war policy will have disastrous consiquesnces in the long run....You are sooo uninformed about this war in Iraq, obviously. Look at the war profiteering, 70% of Iraq wants us out, the war was undeclared. We should be more concerned with Israel attacking Iran because we have 130,000 soildiers right in the middle of that fight. The approach to Iran should be de-escalation, instead all Bush has done is ratchet up the same rhetoric he used to get us into Iraq. There are Jews in Iranian parliament, 70% of the nation does not support Ahmadinajad (the number 2 guy in Iran by the way) just like 70% of this country doesnt support ours. Iran diesnt deserve to be bombed, we will unify all Iranians against America the munite one boot hits the ground.
On a long-term economic level, it would bring benefits to both Iran and the US if happened. Fortunately, I don't think America has the resources to carry it out. Besides, with the resources tied up in Iraq, they could not sustain this without printing more money, cutting the interest rates further.
Once Iraq is rebuilt under U.S. occupation, it could cause their economy to prosper, and benefit ours, since they'll be dollars being pumped into our economy. I don't think the troops should withdraw, we should not submit to our opponents. I didn't say enemy, because I don't believe they are, but the fact is they're killing our soldiers, and our soldiers are killing them. We shouldn't waste this occupation without getting some gains in return.
This occupation in Iraq is just a part of a huge economic battle going on in the world. I don't think Bush has much of a choice. Oil is the bloodline of this economy, 90% of the items in your room, made with plastic, and transported using gasoline. Your home could be heated by heating oil. Until there is an alternative resource that could run transportation AND be able to produce plastic efficiently, it's important to secure the resources. I believe this war has prolonged the inevitable, another depression. It'll happen.
I remember 10 years ago, the dollar was worth something. You could go to Europe and get more value for your good. The U.S. also had much cheaper goods as well.
Inflation increasing slight each year. A weak dollar. Decreased purchasing power, widening trade deficit. The writing is on the wall.
They'll be a crash, and you better be prepared for it. Likely won't happen for another 5-10 years, but it will.
A war with Iran could save us later on. It's sick, but war could bring great economic benefits.
On a moral level, a war with Iran is absolutely sick. I don't believe a nation should provoke another war with another country to steal their resources. But since Bush is taking us on a hell bound bath, might as well. The consequences of an economic collapse in the USA would be far worse.
Hmmm Don't quite understand your economic theory here. How do you think going into another war will bring us out of an economic problem? Wars cost billions of dollars that we don't have to fund. The idea is to pay off our national debt not create more, and that is just what a war will do. If you really want to stop an economic catastrophe just do away with the FED, and limit the size of government. The whole Fed process is nothing but a way to bankrupt the country. We spend all our lives paying money towards a debt that can't be paid off. The more money they print to fund a war the more value our dollar loses, and higher interest, and taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by thcbongman
This is assuming we could win against Iran, but don't you ever think of the possibility that we could loose? Is it really worth the risk? And even if we did win, we would certainly harm our ties with Russia and China who are against a war with Iran, and the last thing we want are those 2 guys as enemies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrenaline Rush
Seems like most people that support a war with Iran are naive to the fact that we could actually loose everything we have fought for for 200+ years. Until we find out Iran is planning an attack against US soil, no war on Iran. We don't have the military capability to do so.
exactly, wars cause inflation, which is bad when your currency is just paper, that's been inflating since the day it was unconstitutionally created out of thin air.Quote:
Originally Posted by epxroot
That's exactly what we are doing now. We are printing money for this war. This conflict in Iraq prevented what could've been a recession of magnitude because Bush artificially propped up the economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by epxroot
See war brings in revenue. The government has to pay someone for the various services involved, producing guns, skematics, etc. etc. etc. In this day and age, much of this funding is given to contractors, at a cheaper and more efficient cost. Largely the companies would be American, and that's dollars being pumped back into the economy to other sectors. That's exactly what Theodore Roosevelt did, using socialistic programs to create jobs to pump dollars into the economy for the war effort. And it worked. Not long after the war, the 50s was a very prosperous time for America.
The 2nd reason is because Iran has abundant oil resources. They would be able to recoup some of the losses in the long-term, if we are victorious. If we went to war with let's say Rwanda. Morally, it would be a great thing to do, but what does the US have to gain? Absolutely nothing, that'll bankrupt them.
The danger is inflation is hard to control, and once it starts really rolling, it's hard to stop and can have major consequences, ala Argentina. I agree with you, that the ideal way would be to be fiscally responsible, and reduce the size of the government. None of it is happening. The way the economy is structured...war is the eject button.
I understand what you are trying to explain to me. The problem is it just doesn't work like that today. If you think that I am wrong just look at our current society. Unemployment has not drop much at all since this war started, the price of gas has done nothing but rise since this war started, our dollar is doing nothing but depreciating, we're going more in debt, our federal spending is out of control, the middle/poor class is slowly dieing. The only people this war is helping is the major corporations who supply it, but the problem is the CEO's and other high level executives do not allow the money to trickle down to the people who make the money for the corporation they just suck it up and act like there is nothing wrong with a CEO making 500 times more than the m employee who dedicates most his life to the company.Quote:
Originally Posted by thcbongman
The difference between the 50's and today is the economy was a lot stronger, our dollar had more value, companies were not going over seas, our federal spending was not so out of control, illegal immigration was not as big of a problem and there are many others to list. These are some of the reasons why it was a prosperous time, but as you see those days are not here anymore. Like I said we are in a whole different economical era.
Ok here's the end all, be all of this thread. If you smoke marijuana, have an account on this forum, and are posting that you support war in ANY way shape or form, you're full of shit. Fuck Israel, Fuck Iran, Fuck Iraq, FUCK THE MIDDLE EAST. I dont give a shit anymore. You want to get nukes? Then start a fucking fight. Let them kill each other. If we get nuked, so be it, theres not shit we can do about it. Sure we could attack Iran, and we'll BOTH get really fucked up, then someone will launch a bomb, the other side will retaliate. Besides, Aminawhatchawhosit won't do shit. He might be crazy, but he isn't a dumbass. I honestly, truely believe we are the most likely to nuke anyone. Know why? Fear. It's fear that drives us, fear for our lives, as if ours meant any more than theirs. As far as i'm concerned, fuck the whole world. If you want a war, go right ahead and kill yourself and everyone else. I'll sit here with a fat ass Jay and give you all a nice big finger. When a mushroom clound lights up in my town, oh well. None of it matters, I've given up hope on most of humanity. As long as i can smoke my bud, i honestly dont give a shit what the world is up to too much.
I don't think you are wrong about the current economic state. I predicted a market crash in 5-10 years for those very reasons you listed. Read my first post again. I mention those same points. What we disagree on is whether war is an effective economic stimulus.Quote:
Originally Posted by epxroot
But what do you think CEOs do with their money? Stash it under a mattress? Realistically, they invest it, start new ventures, which creates new jobs. CEOs are definitely getting overpaid, but they don't just suddenly decide "I made enough money." They strive to make more money. One way or another, they're being pumped back into the economy whether it's through securities, or paying for services
Take a look at the Dow Jones average. Notice how it declined until precisely March 2003. Then the trend start an incline. As I mentioned earlier, it's propped up artificially through the war. But my point is what goes up must come down. The cost for this stimulus is major loss of purchasing power, and the weakening of the dollar We eventually have to pay for it. And presently the problem.
I'm not saying it'll solve our problems to go into Iran the next day, but if the economy goes into a freefall, it's can be an effective economic stimulus if well-managed.
If I ruled America, I'd have a very fiscally responsible budget, cut the size of the government, especially defense, and wasteful social programs. I'd run America very much like Switzerland and not involve war.
The problem is America is too deep in shit trying to police the world. We are now engaging in an economic battle with emerging economic powerhouses: EU, China, Russia, and India. All of them have the potential to overtake America.
I have HUGE concerns about Iran, but I just don't think we have the troops or resourcees to go in. The mistakes from the current war in Iraq & Afghanistan have yet to be resolved, so they will just be replicated in Iran. Our military is stretched way too thin.
GO BEARS !;)
Palerider--I know you are smart (because you have told us so over and over again), so I am sure your utter lack of reason and blind faith in America is not true hypocrisy, but an accidental hypocrisy born from your uncontrolled Religious Nationalism--Christianity/U.S.A. I know you are a true American, for you place Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan in the same sentence as if they were one big happy family with a single vision.Quote:
...as far as i know the usa don't go around preaching hate. we are the ones trying to keep the peace. why would it be ok for iran or any other for that matter to be able to have nukes when they are nothin but a place full of hate? i know the usa is alot of things but we are also the ones trying to keep the peace. and for magical herb there is a way thats better than war.it's called working together. but thats when both sides want pretty much the same thing.and u can't reason with a mad man.and if a mad man is trying to spread hate and trying to cause an uprising in his own peoplewhat r u to do but take him out? when is enough?
lets see we and most of the world want peace. iran and everyone else in that area wants control. as they have always have as u can see how they live. and people might not want to face this fact but there biggest beef over there and has been for thousands of years is a lil tiny place called israel. it is what they all want over there and have been fighting over it for years. that is what this is all about as u hear them say over and over it's a holy war to them. they all want to claim israel and who has always backed israel?
i think the usa, so in order to get to there goal what do u think they would do?the thing is the reason they never complete there goal is because all the diffrent tribes over there i.e iran, Afghanistan,iraq, and Syria among the others are always fighting as to who gets it .they all want it.i know u don't want to hear it but thats it in a nut shell.
the funny thing is it's all in the last book of the bible.and i know i'll be the outcast now and i'll be labeled a bible thumper but not really the diffrence between me and the (bible thumpers)are i use my own brain they listen to some guy in a church that preaches the same thing over and over.
it's been coming and it's not over the only way is when we go over there and erase them where ever there is a seed of hate it will be wide spread in a very lil time.
I am an American too, but I am not proud of it. I appreciate its good points, and cry myself to sleep over its ugliness. Of course, American is the best place to live if you want something. But try to think about what is required from the rest of the world in order to maintain our standards of living. There would be no America without the third world, world poverty/famine, and wars. Pride is a no-no in every religion known to man.
It seems that you are very upset about 911--a terrible tragedy of course--but it does not come close to the decimation unleashed on her previous inhabitants and the captives of the middle passage that built her, the nukes over Japan, or the bombing of Dresden, or the collateral damage in Iraq (all of it was collateral damage)...even that the American government sponsored tobacco companies unleash more death and dismemberment upon their own citizenry as to make a grown man cry.
Of course, we are all sickened by 911, but America has a deal with Saudi Arabia--we keep getting cheepish oil, and they will not be fucked with over their terrorism. That is the game. There is an understanding. So while I do not believe the U.S. had a direct role in the 911 attack, they sure as hell are culpable. A machine has many parts, and each part is equally responsible for the actions the machine carries out.
I understand that it is easier to lay blame, when the terrorist is something far off, but the one and only true champion of Terrorism of all time is the Western Economic Machine. How can I, as an American, say this? I just live here, man. I was born here without my permission, and I must live with the hand I was dealt, but that does not mean I have to love everything that happens in America, or because of America. America. America. America. America. America. America. Big woop! I am supposed to worship a flag and a government that pisses on its own people and constitution (sounds like some kind of a third world thing)? What is this part of America that is so wonderful? Mom? Apple pie? Picnics? Baseball? That is all advertising, and we deserve to be punished for only wanting such a plastic lifestyle. Get out of that loop and be a person, Palerider. Do not let yourself be branded. America, the brave has been bought and sold. The America you speak of does not exist; it never did. America, the corporation, does not care about spreading freedom anymore. We only care about security.
What was the original question?...oh yes: No War in Iran! Iran is not a threat, fraidy cats! Russia was never even a threat. The cold war was a hoax. All of these fear campaigns are always driven by the global economic control mechanism. America is just going to have to get poorer for the health of the world, and stop scrambling for the wealth. We do not deserve a television in every room, and a car for every family member. We have been taking more than we deserve for centuries, and there is no legitimate argument as to why we deserve it over anybody else.
Death count 911--3000
[align=center] Annual Causes of Death in the United States 2000
[/align]
[align=center] Tobacco 435,000 Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 365,000 Alcohol 85,000 Microbial Agents 75,000 Toxic Agents 55,000 Motor Vehicle Crashes 26,347 Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000 Suicide 30,622 Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000 Homicide 20,308 Sexual Behaviors 20,000 All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect 17,000 , 5 Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin 7,600 Marijuana 0
[/align]
Are we going to war over death, or is it ideology? From looking at the numbers, it seems that Blackwater "contractors" (Tr. Mercenaries) should be kicking in the doors of tobacco executives. Bunker busters should be dropped on the mansions of fast food executives. We should be offering $1,000,000 rewards for the recovery of known pharmaceutical executives who are using the proceeds from selling their prescription poisons to finance global terrorism (the continued eradication of natural remedies and their support of the war on drugs which imprisons some of our best minds)...and these microbial agents...What kind of Jihad is that? So no, I do not support any more bullshit fucking wars sketched up on cocktail napkins by special interest think tanks, fake Texans, and blind patriots to the scripted American dream!!
I love how the U.S can openly possess nuclear technology, but no one else is allowed to. The Iranian government has repeatedly made compromise offers to place strict limits on its nuclear program beyond what the Non-Proliferation Treaty and the Additional Protocol legally require of Iran, in order to ensure that the program cannot be secretly diverted to the manufacture of weapons. As for the intel that the US has provided to the United Nations IAEA about Iran's nuclear program, most of it has proven to be inaccurate, and none of it has led to significant discoveries in Iran.
The US Nuclear Posture Review which was made public for any citizen in the world to read envisioned the use of nuclear weapons on a first strike basis, even against non-nuclear armed states. The US has repeatedly refused to rule out nuclear first strikes against non-nuclear opponents. This policy is in clear violation of the US Negetive Security Assurance, which pledged not to use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear members of the NPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty) of which Iran is a part of. So if the US doesnt want to abide by the rules, why should anyone else have to? So the current administration's stance in the world playground (IMO) is either you become our bitch, or we'll nuke you. I suppose the one good thing that has come from this "war on terror" is that I can now buy cheap goods from the states!