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For that matter, ideas in general have caused more strife than anything else. It will be a good day when we all stop thinking, and definately stop having convictions of any sort. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by savagepossum
IOW. stop being human. Your beef ought to be with the human race in general, my friend, not "religion" per se.
So? Why is slavery, in and of itself an inherently evil, utterly intolerable thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by orange floyd
Now please keep in mind, I'm not asking about how such slaves ought to be treated - that's an entirely different question. Too often people confuse issues, and end up attacking things which are only tangental to the real issue at hand.
The fact of the matter is, we're not really as "anti-slavery" in this part of the world as we pretend to be. Nobody seriously thinks parents should not have some kind of rights over their children (even if they've reached the age of reason - which most would say is somewhere around seven), including the ability to restrict their freedom. Indeed, all of us to some degree have exterior forces curtailing our freedom - and only the most immature of adults will regard that as an utterly intolerable, unforgivable thing. No, it's just a fact of life, and we make the best of it.
I always felt the age of reason is 13..in part I suppose based on Jewish tradition. However, I'm Wiccan, and we also hold 13 to be the age of reason, more or less. That's when we start allowing our kids to take a more active role in ritual etc., and begin the process of instruction and initiation.
i grew up in an evangelical christian church... was licensed and ordained a minister. worked fulltime at a church as a youth pastor/young adult pastor... and i smoked weed. not saying i didn't struggle at times wondering the morality of it SIMPLY because it is against the law and the Bibile is strong in its stances on obeying authority. i never doubted its morality simply as a plant to be used for medicine/recreation/spiritual pursuits and i still do not.
Jesus rules! God's Word is such an amasing book of wisdom and knowlegde, so sad so many people don't really know the power it contains.
Prayer Requests and Miracles 24 hours a day! Prayer.
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Originally Posted by sharer6969
Dude, there's a HUGE difference between slavery and parental rules, or general societal laws. Parents set down rules for CHILDREN to keep them safe from bad decisions and the dangers of life, and they're still expected to keep it somewhat reasonable or they'd lose their kids on grounds of child abuse. Laws and societal rules in general are something we all wilingly abide by because it's for the well-being of the general public. SLAVERY, is the imprisonment of a grown individual, who's issue above all is that they'll never have the ability to choose their own path in life and make something of themselves, or enjoy the same rights and privilages that the rest of the public does. There's a HUGE difference between slavery and our little social rules.
what about outsourcing overseas then?
I don't really agree with any of sharer's actual points, but I think he might be right in saying we're not as anti-slavery in practice as we preach to be.
Awesome. Thanks for sharing.
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Originally Posted by hazetwostep
"Differences", even significant ones between two things, does not necessarily mean the two are utterly different. And I submit, there is a similarity, in so far as the two (parental authority and slavery) essentially involve authority to the point of virtual ownership. Now if that in and of itself is not inherently immoral, one will have to find something else to criticize slavery for, if they're going to insist it is inherently immoral.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdevious
So in other words, if a parent behaves in a moral fashion (how one defines that is another argument), their rights over their children remain in tact? Well, one could just as well say the same thing, in principle, about slavery. Like I said, how one treats slaves, and the condition of having slaves, are two separate matters. It's like saying that because there are abusive, shitty parents, that parenthood is inherently immoral.Quote:
Parents set down rules for CHILDREN to keep them safe from bad decisions and the dangers of life, and they're still expected to keep it somewhat reasonable or they'd lose their kids on grounds of child abuse.
Generally, but not always. OTOH. there is no such thing as absolute authority, at least not amongst mankind. If a government attempts to enact something outside of it's "God-given" authority, then it is no law at all. The same is true of parents who demand immoral and unreasonable things of their children. If say, mom & dad demand that jr. go and put some rat poison in someone's coffee, that child is under no moral obligation whatsoever to agree, and in fact would be morally obliged to resist such an order.Quote:
Laws and societal rules in general are something we all wilingly abide by because it's for the well-being of the general public.
Indeed, I'm kind of blown away by a "because the gov't says so" argument coming from a fellow cannabis lover.
Umm, life in general has a way of cramping our styles and preventing us from doing whatever it is we may want to do (even when that something isn't even a morally objectionable thing.) The fact that I wasn't born into a rich family has put a lot of restrictions upon just what it is I'm free to do, including entirely wholesome things. Can I complain about this? Sure. Does it matter? Not really, because in the end being compelled to be a wage slave and pay taxes is not, in principle, immoral. It may not be the most desirable state for a man, but that's hardly the same as saying it is an inherently intolerable one.Quote:
SLAVERY, is the imprisonment of a grown individual, who's issue above all is that they'll never have the ability to choose their own path in life and make something of themselves, or enjoy the same rights and privilages that the rest of the public does. There's a HUGE difference between slavery and our little social rules.
I think that's where you may be misunderstanding me - I do believe there is a distinction to be had between what is prefferable and even "most virtuous" and what is absolutely immoral in any context. People who argue that slavery is not an ideal condition for a human being have a good point. But then again, that can be said of a lot of things. This is why I would say that the natural tendency for a prosperous, technologically advanced, and genuinely moral society would be to move away from slavery. However, I'd say the same thing about warfare and capital punishment - while in an ideal situation neither would be necessary and if we can avoid them, charity would seem to require we do so...but when all is said and done, neither is always immoral, certainly not immoral in every circumstance or in every manifestation. If someone is indeed guilty of a (morally) capital offence (like murder), it is morally licit for them to be put to death. "Eye for an eye" - however, just because this is possible, doesn't make it ideal either.
It's funny, for all of the "nuance" so called "sophisticated people" claim to have, it is they who are in reality very unreasonable and unthinkingly dogmatic about everything. Why is something "moral"? Because they say so, because it pleases them. So if they've got a taste for something, that alone makes it moral. If something is unpleasent however, the same type of person will be inclined to say it's immoral. I'm not talking about anyone in particular on this forum when I bring up this point - it's only an observation I've had about secularism in general...that taken to it's logical end, it usually ends up an irrational, tyranical mess which ends up being worse than the problems it thinks it's solving (case in point, Communism ended up being worse than the corruptions it's revolutionary leaders perceived in both governmental and religious institutions.) That is how philosophical and political materialism (atheism and secularism respectively) always end up, when allowed to reach their logical conclusion. Fortunately, a lot of complicating circumstances have prevented such a thing from happening in other parts of the western world... for now at least.
In actuality, all of the above considerations are why I consider many self professed Christians to in fact be compromised, at least on an intellectual level, even when they come off as being "really conservative" (ex. they don't approve of homosexual behaviour, abortion, etc.) While they appear to be "correct" on certain hot botton issues (and even then they often hijack these correct positions, by making stupid decisions elsewhere - case in point, so called "conservative Christians" who support "Dubya" - such persons seem to think that while sodomy and abortion are sins, which they are, lying, thievery, and immoral+illegal warfare are not), their assumptions are actually quite atheistic. Hence, why you see so many "Christians" explaining away or apologizing for certain teachings of the Scriptures, such as those aspects of the Law of Moses which allowed for slavery (and the fact that in the New Testament, the Apostles clearly do not think slavery is inherently immoral either - to the point that St.Paul admonishes a deliquent slave to return to his master.) Deep down, such views manifest a kind of "secularism in Christian drag" - the rhetoric of Christianity, a lot of "Jesus talk", but not a coherently Christian worldview.
As an aside...
...can someone believe things like the above? Yup, if they have their head on straight and don't waffle. And guess what? I believe all of the above, and think that cannabis use is essentially no different than the use of alcohol - both can be abused in their own ways, both can become "mockers" of the soul, though I'd add the caveat that generally alcohol is the more vicious of the two (it certainly does more direct harm to the body, to be sure.) The worst thing I've seen pot do to anyone is make them an unmotivated bum - but that all comes down to a question of moderation, which applies to most things. For all save a few exceptions, there is a time and place for everything. It's true of sex, it's true of war, it's true of peace. And it's true of delicious, frosty buds as well. ;)
So no one should believe for a second that the only people who make pot a part of their lifestyle are left-wing hippie flakes. I'm convinced that save for mindless reactionaries and puritans who think anything "too fun" has to be inherently evil (like the idiots who condemn all use of alcoholic beverages while ignoring the fact that the Lord Himself was a "wine drinker", and even used wine as an integral part of His supreme sacrament, the Eucharist), for most Christians the issue of cannabis is one largely shrouded in ignorance and misinformation. Simply put, these folks have been lied to by a big apparatus of corrupt government and big business - I've found that if you carefully and concretely demonstrate that such propaganda is b.s., they do come around (even if they decide that in spite of this, cannabis is not for them - which is ok too, obviously.)
is this a slavery thread now???
jsn9333... you are not alone but you are in the vast majority! even though weed is much less harmful, that is not the angle other conservative christians will ping you on. they will ping you on "obedience" to the law of the land.. as you know the Bible is huge on obedience and authority.
you could always argue back at anyone who breaks any laws (like driving 1mph over the speed limit, etc) that they do the same... but the fact is that if you are a conservative bible believing christian, you have to justsify willingly participating in illegal behaviors (though they should not be illegal, the fact is that they are).
so if you can justify that aspect in your mind soundly, then more power to you! that is a tough one to get around though... if you figure it out, let me know!!! haha... the only way i could imagine working around it (from a biblical standpoint) is if it is a key part of your spirituality and you felt it was an "oppressive" and hindering law to your walk with Christ (that wouldn't include recreational use though).
anyway, i would love to talk more as it is an issue (though this is a slavery thread now) i have faced for a long time!