god vs. no god

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Originally Posted by greendove

Just because everything had to have a starting point, it doesn't automatically mean that it was a God that created everything. I don't precisely know where my desk lamp came from either, but I bet it wasn't God. Thomas Aquinas was made famous by this argument, but it's still based on a logical fallacy.

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Ok, but here's the thing...and it can be applied to both the universe as a whole, and the Earth specifically.

Before there was something, there was nothing.
Thats some transition.
Even with the big bang.
What was before that?
A big rock?
And before that?

And then what about Earth.
Initally it was lifeless. At least thats the assumption.
And then :POOF: there was life. :birthday:

Now thats some trick.
Agreed?

Perhaps our limitations make something from nothing seem like a big deal. What if we looked at the problem on a smaller scale. For example, our thoughts. Ever notice how they appear random but in reality are not? They are a result of composite perception and base chemical reactions...we create inner universes out of mere emotional responses...perhaps the universe in the same manner realised it's own infinity, gasped and created thousands more?? <stoned rant, don't hold it against me> Peace!

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Originally Posted by hewhispers

Ok, but here's the thing...and it can be applied to both the universe as a whole, and the Earth specifically.

Before there was something, there was nothing.
Thats some transition.
Even with the big bang.
What was before that?
A big rock?
And before that?

And then what about Earth.
Initally it was lifeless. At least thats the assumption.
And then :POOF: there was life. :birthday:

Now thats some trick.
Agreed?

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"Trick" or not, this is known as the fallacy of "Burden of Proof" or "Appeal to Ignorance". To break it down, you're stating that A.) Something happened to create the universe. B.) Since no one knows what, that answer has to be "God". Not very logically sound. It's a good thing that religion is based on faith, and not logic.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-of-proof.html

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Originally Posted by the yeag

I just wish one of you snake handling bible thumpers would quote me some scripture for me to recite to the Mormons and Jehovah's that come around recruiting that shows that soliciting religion is wrong..

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hey i am serious..a little help please for the pope:jointsmile:

the nice thing about faith is thats just what it is-faith in things unseen. i happen to have faith in a God, who is eternal. He never was "created". He always has been and always will be. from there, He created the earth. i am trying to understand your point of view. it does not allow for a higher being, so how did the earth come into existence? where did matter originate? if it was in the "big bang", what specifically caused it? what was the beginning of existence of anything physical? i am not trying to convert any of you to a particular religion, just wondering what you believe. the beauty of this argument is that no one was around when life began and therefore you cannot prove to me there is not a God, as i cannot prove to you there is. so in reality, it is essentially pointless to argue about this topic.

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Originally Posted by wrasler

the nice thing about faith is thats just what it is-faith in things unseen. i happen to have faith in a God, who is eternal. He never was "created". He always has been and always will be. from there, He created the earth. i am trying to understand your point of view. it does not allow for a higher being, so how did the earth come into existence? where did matter originate? if it was in the "big bang", what specifically caused it? what was the beginning of existence of anything physical? i am not trying to convert any of you to a particular religion, just wondering what you believe. the beauty of this argument is that no one was around when life began and therefore you cannot prove to me there is not a God, as i cannot prove to you there is. so in reality, it is essentially pointless to argue about this topic.

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well
following this logic, prove to me that reality was not shit out by atomic space jellyfish that orbit the horsehead nebula.
you cant disprove it, therefore it must be true.

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Originally Posted by wrasler

the beauty of this argument is that no one was around when life began and therefore you cannot prove to me there is not a God, as i cannot prove to you there is. so in reality, it is essentially pointless to argue about this topic.

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Precisely. I'm just one of those folks content to not know for now. Maybe the answers will be mine to know one day. Good for you folks who have already found yours.

If you look at the universe it seems like every law in physics was made specifically for life to exist. If one small feature of physics was different we would not exist. Also in quantum mechaniques in order for something to exist it must be observed. If our universe is the only universe then it would be too much of a coincidence for us to exist, so god had to have created us and is watching us now. If it turns out that there are trillions of other parallel universes right next to us,(which is probably the case), then most of those universes have no life and we are just a lucky percentage. Also with parellel universes something does not have to be observed to exist. I don't know which one is right, but beyond our universe there still may possibly be a greater power

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Originally Posted by greendove

B.) Since no one knows what, that answer has to be "God". Not very logically sound. It's a good thing that religion is based on faith, and not logic.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-of-proof.html

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I certainly am not filing all that is not known under God.
My point was that life came from non-life.
That to me this is the only true miracle that I can think of.
Maybe one day man will be able to something so amazing.
I tend to doubt it.

The whole Intelligent Design theory is a sad attempt by Christians/right wing to insert God into evolution.

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Originally Posted by MastaChronic

well
following this logic, prove to me that reality was not shit out by atomic space jellyfish that orbit the horsehead nebula.
you cant disprove it, therefore it must be true.

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you are totally misconstruing my words. i am stating what i believe. i am not trying to convince you one way or the other. i also was not stating that because you cannot prove one way or the other, that my belief is true; its just what i happen to believe.

hewhispers,
sorry to say this, but "right-wing" has nothing to do with intelligent design. many faiths have believed in a creator long before darwin hypothesized the theory of evolution in the 1800s. a thing to keep in mind is that whatever you believe about the origin of the universe and life is this: EVERY IDEA IS A THEORY. no one was there, therefore you cannot prove one over the other. if you could, they would be LAWS.