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Ya gotta admit Bong, he does have a pretty valid point. Nothing like a GS(oops, I mean Mostafa :rolleyes: ) post to get the blood boiling. And, we all know you're the Crazy Neocon. Don't feel bad, embrace your insanity as I have. After all, "Fengzi" just means crazy person in Chinese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
If he would......spell America with a "C" just once.....I would hold out hope for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fengzi
I have 2 kids...i had 2 kids in Diapers at the same time......I am certifiable nuts.... You would have to be.
I just dont understand....How, (ie Gs, Pissy, Eg, you know the cast of characters....) can hate America so much?
I'd hate to speak for everyone, especially because when you throw that wide a net out (and hook people like gs) the issue becomes a little more mirky...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bong30
So let me explain a basic perspective on the matter instead. It's a common neo-con myth that liberals hate the US. This is false. Most liberals love the US. We think it's an amazing example of what is possible with respect to insuring human rights and freedoms. Perhaps even the best example in the world today. However, simply being the best example isn't a reason to stop progress. And in the spirit of our constitutional values that all men (and women we should think) are created equal, with certain intrinsic rights and priviledges, these values should extend beyond our prejudges and even beyond our borders to the way that we as a nation interact with the rest of the world.
If slavery was wrong, then why isn't it wrong to make economic slaves out of factory working children in indonesia? Simply because we don't think of it that way?
One example. I've got more if you like.
I dont care about slavery issues in indonesia....tell them to start a Union.
We did......now the illegal imagration is fucking that all up HUH?
Yes slavery of kids is bad, so we deal with that with diplomacy...seams easy.
are those Islamic states you are talking about? Hummmmmm?
I dont see slaves (esp kids) in many democraticly elected countries? Hummmmm?
Please inlighten me......
Bong may not agree with me Poly, but I don't throw you in the same group as GS, and Pissy. You may be a bit farther left of the middle than I am, but you don't seem to suffer from the delusions that some of ther others do. Unfortunately, it's folks like GS and Pissy who give the liberals a bad name. As in most groups, the most outspoken members of the group tend to be the most extreme. So, it's no wonder someone like Bong would simply group anyone that is left leaning with them. Just as anyone left leaning would assume all conservatives are like Bong. My personal belief is to walk with one foot on each side of the line and let common sense dictate which direction you should take for any given issue. Most people's insistance on staying on one side or the other causes way too many problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Your example of children working in places like Indonesia is a perfect example. My personal belief is that folks on the far left are actually making the situation worse for the children. I didn't just pull this out of my ass, this comes from having degrees in both International Business and East Asian studies. It is also an opinion held by many very knowledgable people. It's been over 10 years since I got out of school so I honestly don't remember the names of any specific references, but if you go to any college library and hunt around a bit you'll find some.
You see, the sad fact is that in some countries children must work. Yes, it would be wonderful if this wasn't the reality, and that they could all go to school and eventually become Harvard scholars, but that is just a dream. The families need the children to work so they will. It is not a situation where if the factory didn't exist they'd be in cute little uniforms at the local school. If the factory didn't exist they'd be working out in the fields with the heat, sun, and poisonous snakes(lots of them). Or in many cases prostituting themselves on the street. This is not an exageration, this is reality.
So, "how is the situation made worse by the folks on the far left?", you may ask. Because they are delusional and can't see reality. A big company like Nike, for eaxample, could set up a program where kids work in a factory for part of the day and go to a factory school part of the day. They could manage it in a way that would meet all of the families needs. Instead, the folks on the far left have demonized child labor to the point where no major company will touch it. Even though something like that would be extremely beneficial, if Nike were to set something like that up it woould be a public relations disaster. So, instead of working in a factory where things could be controlled they work in factories run by unscrupulous people who don't give a damn about the kids.
Of course, big corporations could just decide to feed and cloth all the worlds poor. A solution usually favored by my neighbors up in Berzerkely :rolleyes: But let's face it, there's a better chance Santa Claus will solve the problem.
Many societies cannot survive without some child labor - even if it is in the home, helping the parents. I started working at various jobs at a young age, and it didn't kill me. In the past, many Europeans and Americans were indentured servants from their early teens, which was a type of slavery. Having regulated workplaces for children in the less fortunate societies is far better than what many of our ancestors went through right here in the U.S.A., Europe, and elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fengzi
There are some well-off kids that are getting credit in the media for rabble rousing against child labor. These kids' parents are no doubt behind their crusade - but they inherited a stable economic situation and nice lifestyle. Most of the world's population, unfortunately, is not born with a silver spoon and does not have these privileges.
You've always had common sense Breuk:thumbsup: It's too bad more people couldn't see the big picture. Especially the "rabble rousers". They love to promote their cause of the day but most have little, if any, understanding of the just what is involved. Unless someone can intelligently discuss the socio/economic factors involved with this type of issue they have no business discussing it at all. Sadly, however, its these idiots who make the most noise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Breukelen advocaat
You have some good points Fengzi, and I actually wouldn't want to argue with any of them at this venture.
But surely we can agree that there's a difference between outsourcing Labor, both as a means of keeping costs lower and providing work to other countries; and economically exploiting 3rd world nations.
I'm not suggesting that we don't utilize foreign markets, but rather that we pay them a fairer wage for their labor. I know what your thinking, it would cause our own costs to rise, maybe you'd pay an additional dollar or two per shirt. And of course, the place to start with this balancing act is at home, because the excess of some in the face of the overwhelming poverty of many is disgusting.
I just think it's going to become an inevitable step, sustainability is rapidly becoming a necessity in our future. And the sooner our nation realises that, the higher the level we'll be able to sustain. Time is money after all, and we seem to rapidly be running out of both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
Paying foreign workers a "fair wage", or the failure to do so, is another myth created by the left. What is "fair" can only be determined by the people living in a given area. What seems grossly unfair to us may seem pretty good in Indonesia.
When I first met my wife 11 years ago, she was a professor at a top university in China. As a highly educated professional, working for the Chinese equivalent of Harvard or Yale, she earned about $200 a month. That's about $10 a day and that was considered very good in Shanghai.
While it would seem like the noble thing to set up a factory and start paying the workers there $6/hr, the reality is that it would wreak havoc on the local economy. You would flood the economy with money and inflation would go up. Before long the factory workers would become the new rich, using their resources(money) to compete with the rest of the local population. The result would be that the rest of the population would no longer be able to afford to keep their old standard of living. So, while you've helped a few hundred factory workers, you've fucked the rest of the population.
Think about it, there's a reason Nike can set up a factory in some thid world place and pay workers $1/day. Although the left likes to use terms like "slave labor" the reality is that people are there by their own free will. Do you really think they'd stay working for $1/day if it wasn't better than the alternative? If the alternative is working in a snake, bug, and disease infested rice paddy for $0.75/day, is Nike really taking advantage of them.
Just something to think about.
there are all sorts of justifications for the status quo. And they are exactly that, justifications.
The fact that people live in a situation where they choose to survive, vs not-survive is not highly indicative of a free choice, but I see where you're going with that. Having fewer constraints on ourselves, surely we could lower ourselves somewhat in order to expand the parameters of their existence to something beyond mere survival. I work a job in order to have money to pay bills, rent, for food, and even luxury items like the occasional eighth and high speed internet. The fact that people can be hired for jobs which basically allow them to slowly starve is ridiculous.
I'll admit, I'm something of an idealist over a sound economist though. I agree with other out-there policies such as aids relief and water purification projects in africa and the like.