Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet
Howdy Torog,
We're not 'flushing them out' Torog, we're creating them. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Even George Bush finally admitted that. Again, Iraq was the only secular country in the middle east that wouldn't tolerate Clerical rule.
We yanked most of our forces out of Afganistan where they should have been, to invade a neighboring country that was giving our oilmen trouble; in the meantime letting the 9/11 attackers escape. Yes, we should be in Afganistan tearing it apart to find Bin Ladin. But that's only an afterthought because there's no money in it. The bucks are in Iraq.
I like the Cindy Sheehan solution--get our boys out of there before they get their asses shot off! They've been conned into thinking they're defending us from Iraq--a country that's certainly given us a ration of shit, but never attacked us. We've been sold on some fable that we're fighting in Iraq because of terrorism. We're fighting in Iraq because of OIL.
You also have a good one.........
Howdy Hamlet,
You claim that "we're not flushing them out-we're creating them"..lol..give me a break,are ya saying that there were no terrorists till we "created" them ? Did we also "create" nazi's and commies and japanese imperialists too ? The reason that saddam kept Iraq secular,was so he could be the absolute power and rob Iraq of money.
If we are in Iraq,solely for the oil,then why isn't there a steady stream of it,flowing into the Strategic Reserve and our refineries ? I have heard no reports of such..maybe you have ? As for Afghanistan and Pakistan,there are elements in the goverment and military,of both countries,that are protecting usama..maybe if more of the world would help us,we could have enough soldiers there to overwhelm the systemic corruption and sedition there.
In a way,I kinda like the Sheehan solution too,as soon as we pulled out,and abandoned Israel,Iran will attack Israel and force them to start lobbing nukes all over the ME.maybe then,you'll finally understand the enemy that we face over there and the religion that fuels the war.
Have a good one ...
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
point is there is A terrorest in a town then instead of trying to find him we just sloughter the town, Bomb it. well others see this happen and go yeah USA is a horable country rapeing and killing people i'm going to join these guys defending my homeland. hence + more terrorests. If we simply added our $$ and forces to finding and getting the real guys and not creating reasons to join them by blowing everything up. We are distroying there land DU in bunkerbuster bombs stays around for 1000+ years causeing birth defects etc.
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
Bong, you're starting to sound like Dubya.
Dubya's Own Experts: " The war in Iraq has made us less safe from terrorists"
Dubya: "No your wrong, I'm the President and I'm always right"
Dubya's Own Experts: "2+2=4 sir"
Dubya: "No, 2+2=6. I'm the president so I'm always right"
I'd have expected it from Torog but thought you'd have a more sense. I'm so disapointed Bong.
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
Well, we can't just pack up and leave now. If we do, the Iraqis will suffer more, as there would probably be a violent and bloody civil war, and in the end we'd probably end up with some religious freak ruling the country, which would be worse than Saddam by far. Now that we stepped into the mess and got our feet covered in shit, it's gonna be expensive and difficult to get out of there without looking like we got our asses handed to us.
What bugs me is the sheer overwhelming cost. Some estimates put the overall cost of this Iraqi invasion at two TRILLION dollars. That's enough money that we could have fixed our ailing power grids, and made our borders safer, and fixed Social Security for our aging population, and fixed our interstate road systems, AND provided health care for everyone in the country. So we gave up all that, and in return we got...Saddam and a bunch of lucrative rebuilding contracts for Haliburton, and more people than ever willing to strap on bombs and kill themselves to kill even more of us. That was not a good deal for the American people, at least those who drive, or use electricity, or need medical care, or are aging, or want a more secure country. Surely, there were better ways to spend that amount, that would have made us more, rather than less, safe. Too bad Congess just caved and let Bush have his way, rather than doing their jobs and figuring out the BEST way to allocate our resources. But they're gonna pay for that at election time.
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torog
Howdy Hamlet,
You claim that "we're not flushing them out-we're creating them"..lol..give me a break,are ya saying that there were no terrorists till we "created" them ? Did we also "create" nazi's and commies and japanese imperialists too ?
...
Torog, you give a new meaning to the word "ignorant". Yes, of course there were terrorists before we were in Iraq. Yet before Iraq there were a lot more pissed off Muslims who were content to just spit at the tv when they saw a story about the U.S. on the news. Now that we've invaded, set up a puppet government in, and basically seriously fucked up, a sovereign Muslim nation all those pissed off Muslims are more than happy to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.
Think of it this way, how many American's would have supported invading Afghanistan and overthrowing the Taliban before 9/11? Can't you see the parallel?
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamstigator
Well, we can't just pack up and leave now. If we do, the Iraqis will suffer more, as there would probably be a violent and bloody civil war, and in the end we'd probably end up with some religious freak ruling the country, which would be worse than Saddam by far. Now that we stepped into the mess and got our feet covered in shit, it's gonna be expensive and difficult to get out of there without looking like we got our asses handed to us.
What bugs me is the sheer overwhelming cost. Some estimates put the overall cost of this Iraqi invasion at two TRILLION dollars. That's enough money that we could have fixed our ailing power grids, and made our borders safer, and fixed Social Security for our aging population, and fixed our interstate road systems, AND provided health care for everyone in the country. So we gave up all that, and in return we got...Saddam and a bunch of lucrative rebuilding contracts for Haliburton, and more people than ever willing to strap on bombs and kill themselves to kill even more of us. That was not a good deal for the American people, at least those who drive, or use electricity, or need medical care, or are aging, or want a more secure country. Surely, there were better ways to spend that amount, that would have made us more, rather than less, safe. Too bad Congess just caved and let Bush have his way, rather than doing their jobs and figuring out the BEST way to allocate our resources. But they're gonna pay for that at election time.
You sir, have some intelligence:thumbsup: Finally someone who isn't so fixated on taking one side or the other that they've lost all common sense.
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamstigator
Well, we can't just pack up and leave now. If we do, the Iraqis will suffer more, as there would probably be a violent and bloody civil war, and in the end we'd probably end up with some religious freak ruling the country, which would be worse than Saddam by far. Now that we stepped into the mess and got our feet covered in shit, it's gonna be expensive and difficult to get out of there without looking like we got our asses handed to us.
What bugs me is the sheer overwhelming cost. Some estimates put the overall cost of this Iraqi invasion at two TRILLION dollars. That's enough money that we could have fixed our ailing power grids, and made our borders safer, and fixed Social Security for our aging population, and fixed our interstate road systems, AND provided health care for everyone in the country. So we gave up all that, and in return we got...Saddam and a bunch of lucrative rebuilding contracts for Haliburton, and more people than ever willing to strap on bombs and kill themselves to kill even more of us. That was not a good deal for the American people, at least those who drive, or use electricity, or need medical care, or are aging, or want a more secure country. Surely, there were better ways to spend that amount, that would have made us more, rather than less, safe. Too bad Congess just caved and let Bush have his way, rather than doing their jobs and figuring out the BEST way to allocate our resources. But they're gonna pay for that at election time.
Bush is just a puppet. This is just a pawn move for the bigger players. In the end Human's will never be able to rule them selfs. Putting faith in a crupted system is just aiding there cruption.
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fengzi
Torog, you give a new meaning to the word "ignorant". Yes, of course there were terrorists before we were in Iraq. Yet before Iraq there were a lot more pissed off Muslims who were content to just spit at the tv when they saw a story about the U.S. on the news. Now that we've invaded, set up a puppet government in, and basically seriously fucked up, a sovereign Muslim nation all those pissed off Muslims are more than happy to blow themselves up in the name of Allah.
Think of it this way, how many American's would have supported invading Afghanistan and overthrowing the Taliban before 9/11? Can't you see the parallel?
Howdy Fengzi,
You are being 'ignorant',when you presume that all of those previously 'peaceful' muslims,were not a threat to the Free World,to begin with,because being muslim,means that there can never be any peace in the world,until all non-muslims are slain or converted into dhimini's.
I believe that there were and are,many Americans who have supported toppling rogue regimes in the ME,since the hostage crisis in Iran,back in '79.
I can 'see the parallel',however..'they' support brutal oppression and religious extremeism..we are not alike in that respect,as long as the muslim-arab men,cling to their brutalization and oppression of women and girls,they all need to be turned upside-down on their heads. As long as they threaten(and continue to attack) our democratic allies,then they need to be crushed. Is the reason that you continue to support the muslim-jihadists,because yer envious of how each muslim-arab man,is a brutal dictator to his own family and gits to treat the women and girls,like beasts ?
We were authorized to use force to git saddam to comply with numerous violations of existing UN resolutions,it was a great opportunity to change the ME,hopefully for the better,as well as establish a front-line over there,instead of here. The true danger is Iran and Syria,being in Iraq,makes it easier to take them out. We need more independence from Saudi oil supplies,before we can dump them and start working on that bed of international terrorism. I wish that I could send a personal message,to the prince that was in charge of my district,when I was in Saudi..we heard tell,that he liked to chop off the hands of thieves,personally,in some cases..as well as supporting honor killings and enacting death sentences for gay muslims in his district.
Have a good one ...
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torog
Is the reason that you continue to support the muslim-jihadists,because yer envious of how each muslim-arab man,is a brutal dictator to his own family and gits to treat the women and girls,like beasts ? ...
I don't support the muslim-jihadists Torog, if you had read some of my other posts you'd see that I am actually very critical of them and support stomping them out with whatever force is neccessary. On the other hand, I refuse to delude myself into believing that our invasion of Iraq has made us any safer from terrorism. Unless of course, the long term goal is to kill every Muslim innthe world. then, I guess, we're on the right track:thumbsup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torog
We were authorized to use force to git saddam to comply with numerous violations of existing UN resolutions,it was a great opportunity to change the ME,hopefully for the better,as well as establish a front-line over there,instead of here. ...
Well, at least your honest about your agenda. Change the ME (to make it just like us, whether they like it or not) and establish a larger military presence there. That's the real goal, right? This whole "make us safer from terrorism" bit is just a way to let us sleep throught he night since the truth would make some folks a bit uncomfortable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torog
The true danger is Iran and Syria,being in Iraq,makes it easier to take them out. ...
Again, it sounds like the long term goal is the eradication of the worldwide Muslim population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torog
We need more independence from Saudi oil supplies, ...
So, this really is a war for oil. Thanks for clearing that up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torog
I wish that I could send a personal message,to the prince that was in charge of my district,when I was in Saudi..we heard tell,that he liked to chop off the hands of thieves,personally,in some cases..as well as supporting honor killings and enacting death sentences for gay muslims in his district. ...
Sounds like your kind of guy.
You just keep belivieving what you want to Torog. 10 years from now when the whole Middle East is a fucking disaster area and the history books show it's all due to Dubya's disastrous foriegn policy I'm sure you'll be first in line for the book burning (probably a pretty long line down ther in Texas;) )
Spy Agencies conclude Iraq War is Increasing Terrorism
I don't think we can win any physical war on Muslims/Arabs. Even if we tried, it'd be like using a machine gun to shoot at an advancing army of killer bees. Sure, we'd get some of them, but we wouldn't noticeably dent their numbers. In fact, shooting at them just riles more of them up and makes the swarm grow in size.
But we shouldn't be warring with Muslims/Arabs *because* they are Muslims/Arabs. That's like killing black people because their parents are black. You can't help where, or from what parents, you are born, and just because your parents are Muslims doesn't make one an extremist. There are plenty of good, peaceful Muslims out there; I've met thousands.
The only real way for victory (which I will define as 'peace') is by winning the battle for the hearts and minds of the common Muslim person. Oh, maybe they will never LOVE us; probably they will not. But we can probably, if we work at it, make it so fewer people just outright HATE us. Defeat the hate that lies beneath the violence, and the violence itself will taper off. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.
A little less arrogance on the part of the U.S. would go a long way. I love my country, but we do tend to tromp around the entire world as if we own it, and that is something that people dislike. I remember when I was living in Turkey, I was at a beer house on the bay next to the sea in Izmir with a Turkish friend. He started pointing at people as they'd walk by, telling me which were Americans. I couldn't figure out how he was identifying which were Americans, because it wasn't by hair or skin color or clothing -- Turks dress pretty much like we do. Finally, I asked him and he explained with a laugh: we walk like we own the ground upon which we tread. There is a distinctly American swagger. And once he explained it, I could do it too, pick the Americans out of the crowd. I eventually learned NOT to walk that way (and to speak Turkish fairly fluently too), and suppressed that American arrogance (and the walk) enough that nobody could easily tell where I was from. Some guessed Yugoslavia, some guessed Pakistan.
I hope it all works out okay in Iraq, not just for us, but for the Iraqi people. But I have my doubts, and day by day it looks more and more like we flushed a couple of trillion dollars down the drain because we acted without consideration for the consequences.