Communism

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Communism is a stateless, classless society

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Do you honestly believe that ?

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in which nobody has the power to enforce their ideas on other people.

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Do the millions upon millions who have been killed under communist's Governments count ?

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Decisions on how workplaces and societies should be run are made democratically by their members.

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That is called Democracy, not communism.

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Under capitalism you are subject to governments and bosses with the power to write the rules and tell you what to do, hence all the corruption we see.

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Government that you can vote on, bosses that PAY you money, for a job you can quit if you want too. Can you point to 1 communist Government in history that wasn't corrupt ? As already posted power corrupts, putting more of it in fewer hands which is exactly what (in reality) communism does only makes things worst.

Communism has killed 10's of millions, and all I got was this lousey T-shirt, maybe we should give it one more try.

Ozarks, you seemed to have missed that he wasn't talking about communist nations or their success, he was talking about communism.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Under capitalism you are subject to governments and bosses with the power to write the rules and tell you what to do, hence all the corruption we see.

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Uh, capitalism doesn't neccessarily mean government. I know quite a few capitalists who are anarchists.

Capitalism is all about freedom. The freedom to hire, the freedom to fire. The freedom to choose how you want to run your buisness. The freedom to quit a job if you don't like it, and run a buisness your own way.

Iâ??ll have more to say on this subject later (a post Iâ??ve been meaning to get to for a month), but let me whet your appetite: In Star Trek, there is no money. People work at what they want to, as much as they wish to. In exchange all their needs are taken care of...

In Star Trek, energy can be converted into matter at seemingly minimal cost. This matter can be any form from a rock, to a steak sandwich, to a warp nacelle...

Therefore we can see: communism can only work if you violate the laws of physics...

Also, the Ferengi, Romulans, and Dominion all have capitalist economies to some extent. And each of them has a better tech. base than the Federation...

You callin' Spock a commie?! Now I'm really offended.

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Originally Posted by mrdevious

Ozarks, you seemed to have missed that he wasn't talking about communist nations or their success, he was talking about communism.

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Yes, I did focus on the politics of it. I think it's imposable to separate the economic tenant of Communism from the political, except in the most theoretical of debates.

Russia/eastern Europe proved that and China is going to prove it again in the years to come, now that they have let the economic genie out of the bottle.

Socially, Communism looks good on paper, but it never turns out that way in practice.

The people are not happy and leave/overthrow the system 1ST chance they get, and I can't blame them. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Transition Force

Uh, capitalism doesn't neccessarily mean government. I know quite a few capitalists who are anarchists.

Capitalism is all about freedom. The freedom to hire, the freedom to fire. The freedom to choose how you want to run your buisness. The freedom to quit a job if you don't like it, and run a buisness your own way.

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Capitalist history has more than a few blemishes. I don't admire groups with money that hire militias, and eventually lawyers, to kill unions and workers rights movements. Capitalism is predatory. It seeks to get people to do a service or produce a product for the lowest, or no wage.

I have quite a few software and electronic engineer friends that would attest to that. :cool:

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Originally Posted by graymatter

Capitalist history has more than a few blemishes. I don't admire groups with money that hire militias, and eventually lawyers, to kill unions and workers rights movements.

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Once a person is forced to do something you leave the area of capitalism and enter the area of facism. This is equally true of Socialism and Communism, which force people to keep workers they don't want to. I am personally against homophobia, for example, but wouldn't force a homophobe to keep homosexual workers.

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Originally Posted by graymatter

Capitalism is predatory. It seeks to get people to do a service or produce a product for the lowest, or no wage.

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That's half-true. But proper competition keeps everything reasonable. If you don't like how one company acts, you can create your own company and pay better if you want to. Naturally, many of the workers from that company would migrate to yours. The other company, thus faced with losing its workers, would have to increase its employees wages in order to stay in buisness.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Uhh, exactly, that's the whole point of communism. Communism is a stateless, classless society in which nobody has the power to enforce their ideas on other people. Decisions on how workplaces and societies should be run are made democratically by their members. Under capitalism you are subject to governments and bosses with the power to write the rules and tell you what to do, hence all the corruption we see.

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This is where communism is self defeating. "Decisions on how workplaces and societies should be run are made democratically by their members." So, if a decision is to be made it is put to a vote. It is unlikely that all will agree everytime. What about those who have a dissenting opinion? Do they have to go along with what the majority has agreed to? If so, isn't that having someone else's ideas enforced on them? If not, what was the point of the decision in the first place?

If you're really interested in seeing communism at work I suggest you study Chinese history from 1949 to the early '80's. Once you get beyond Mao and his atrocities you will see an intersting perpective on communism at work. And I'm not talking about the political side of communism. I mean the actual attempt to make a go of something resembling true communism.

When the communists took over in China those who had possessions were stripped of them. This was in the attempt to make everyone equal. In doing so, however, those without possessions were enforcing their rules on those who did. Instead of making everyone equal, it simply reversed the roles. Now the poor were in power instead of the rich. It wasn't long before those under the one's who now had power started saying "hey, what's up? I thought we were supposed to be a classless society" and the process was reapeated. This happened many times over a 30 year period. I should also point out that this wasn't just happening at the top government level but in the small villages in the middle of nowhere. Often the results were disastrous and in the name of "preserving true communism" many, many people died.

That's a pretty simplified summary of the situation but you get the idea. The bottom line is that many in China did really try to make a go of true communism and it simply didn't work. I haven't even touched on the effects communism had on China's economic, intellectual, and technological development. For example, the situation faced by many doctors and teachers. During the Cultural Revolution doctors, teachers, and many others that were educated were suddenly considered to be of the "upper class" because of their knowledge. Next thing you know they were being dragged out and beaten by the "classless" masses. When I was going to school in China the dean of the University I was attending walked with a serious limp. Why? because, as a teacher she was tossed out of a second story window by "classless" students during the Cultural Revolution.

Oneironaut, I'd recommend you watch the movie "To Live" also called "Lifetimes". Although slightly exaggerated, it is an excellent portayal of communism in action.

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Originally Posted by Transition Force

Once a person is forced to do something you leave the area of capitalism and enter the area of facism. This is equally true of Socialism and Communism, which force people to keep workers they don't want to. I am personally against homophobia, for example, but wouldn't force a homophobe to keep homosexual workers.

Forced labor equals fascism? That's kind of limiting the extent of tools at capitalism's history, including slavery. The latter part of your comment begs the question, who makes a good capitalist? I'll go along with the gist that a capitalist, according to Reisman, "is anyone (from a janitor to a millionaire) who lives solely by his own effort and who respects the rights of others." I couldn't agree with that more. But it's also a broad and ammoral principle; it applies as much to the indentured servant, or slave, as it does the highly skilled artisan.


That's half-true. But proper competition keeps everything reasonable. If you don't like how one company acts, you can create your own company and pay better if you want to. Naturally, many of the workers from that company would migrate to yours. The other company, thus faced with losing its workers, would have to increase its employees wages in order to stay in buisness.

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Or, the other company can call out their corporate lawyers and remind everyone of the non-compete clauses... and there goes my dream of slaying the corporate Goliath.