FOR ANYONE WHO MEDITATES

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

From my perspective at least, we can say that drugs alter the body. Which creates differences in our perceptions and thoughts in so much as our mental processes are directly the result of physical processes in the body. I won't deny that this is a powerful effect. But I don't think the mind reduces to simply the physical processes. Whether you want to call it the soul, the spirit, the mind, chi, ki, prana, the force, semantics... I have an intuition at least that there is more than just the physical at work. Meditation (for me at least) deals directly with this part, rather than the physical.

So when the physical is altered, sometimes the distinction makes it even easier to focus on that "other part". Why do you think mushrooms and LSD can grant such "spirtual/divine/profound" experiences?

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I think it's more than physical properties too. but I'm looking at it from this perspective.... would a person try to attain a deep level of meditation if they were extremely angry? what about really horny, or grief stricken after seeing a loved one die? of course you wouldn't try to meditate in these states, and these states are created by chemicals in the brain. generally buddhists reject meditating under the influence of drugs because whether it be pot, shrooms, or just powerfull emotions, chemicals cloud the mind and distract it from seeing the true self.

now I"m not saying anybody should write off drug induced meditation all-together, but I am speaking from a buddhist point-of-view (buddha could be considered the ultimate meditator after all), and in buddhist philosophy it is said that the attainment of enlightenment starts with the extinction of "self" (note, this is a rather complex but well explained concept - the extinction of "self" does not mean the extinction of your existence). in order to see the true self, one must liberate him/herself from chemical influences, emotional or otherwise. in attaining this goal, the pure and untainted self is all that remains, unobstructed by drives, conditioning, and emotions that we fool ourselves into believing is the true us.

(note: to clarify this whole "self" issue, which is a big point of confusion for a lot of people, we actually need another word for "self" as in the delusion, and "self" as in the true essence of our being)

So Mushroom meditation is different from sober clear minded meditation is what you're saying. True.

Absoulutly true... but meditation on shrooms or acid or something is still useful, IMO. So I wouldn't completly disregard that...

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

Why do you think mushrooms and LSD can grant such "spirtual/divine/profound" experiences?

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oh, sorry I forgot to respond to that part.

actually, I totally agree these substances can grant such devine experiences. my recent one and only mushroom trip changed me for the better and was truely remarkable. I simply believe that these provide a spiritual experience in their own, but not the same experience granted by meditation. meditation under such influence is more a means of exploring the effects of the substance-induced experience itself.

EDIT: I see I posted a response to your inquiry the same time your wrote it cocacola, maybe I'm psychic ;)

Too many things like that have happened to me for me to believe ANYTHING is a coincidence... We are connected, you and I. And everyone else as well.

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Originally Posted by CocaCola

Too many things like that have happened to me for me to believe ANYTHING is a coincidence... We are connected, you and I. And everyone else as well.

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a force bond perhapse, a rare event that happens between master and apprentice.... oh damnit I forgot to say it with the obiwan accent.....

(doesn't matter anyway, i took that from Knights Of The Old Republic. that's right, I'm a big nerd :D )

I know we're having the slightest of clashes here on this issue. Apparently you're a buddhist. I'm much more of a taoist myself. I don't hold to the truth that all of life is suffering. but meditation being more than just a buddhist phenomena, we can't really point to buddha as the best meditator can we? the best buddhist perhaps, but not the best meditator by necessity.

So let's talk about actual practical use. I've heard people describe the meditative state as something seperate life. For the taoist its more like becoming closer to life. Maybe just in that the focus is on all of life and not just the illusion of our seperation (self). I dunno, mostly I consider buddhism and taoism as two expressions of the same thing, like up and down. I just like the flavor of one over the other, but I may have just mis-stated buddhism, so correct me if I've misrepresented you.

Oh right, so anyway, whether the "self" is altered or not, meditation can still occur. You do realise that you can hold to and be aware of the meditative state all the time don't you? Maybe not as strongly as when one truly focuses, but definately aware. If you were aware of the lack of seperations what would you have to be angry about to start with?

A trip can be like living a lifetime in an hour. Some people don't know how to focus right, and create a nightmare for themselves. But other people can focus on something else, and can create amazing experiences.

I'll leave you with a quote from Terrence McKenna

"'You don't see any contradiction in being a Buddhist
and exploring psychedelics? No, I would almost say,
"how can you be a serious Buddhist if you're not
exploring psychedelics?" Then you're sort of an
armchair Buddhist, a Buddhist from theory. a Buddhist
from practice, but it's sort of training wheels
practice. I mean, the real thing is, take the old boat
out and give it a spin.'"

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Originally Posted by Polymirize

I know we're having the slightest of clashes here on this issue. Apparently you're a buddhist. I'm much more of a taoist myself. I don't hold to the truth that all of life is suffering. but meditation being more than just a buddhist phenomena, we can't really point to buddha as the best meditator can we? the best buddhist perhaps, but not the best meditator by necessity.

So let's talk about actual practical use. I've heard people describe the meditative state as something seperate life. For the taoist its more like becoming closer to life. Maybe just in that the focus is on all of life and not just the illusion of our seperation (self). I dunno, mostly I consider buddhism and taoism as two expressions of the same thing, like up and down. I just like the flavor of one over the other, but I may have just mis-stated buddhism, so correct me if I've misrepresented you.

Oh right, so anyway, whether the "self" is altered or not, meditation can still occur. You do realise that you can hold to and be aware of the meditative state all the time don't you? Maybe not as strongly as when one truly focuses, but definately aware. If you were aware of the lack of seperations what would you have to be angry about to start with?

A trip can be like living a lifetime in an hour. Some people don't know how to focus right, and create a nightmare for themselves. But other people can focus on something else, and can create amazing experiences.

I'll leave you with a quote from Terrence McKenna

"'You don't see any contradiction in being a Buddhist
and exploring psychedelics? No, I would almost say,
"how can you be a serious Buddhist if you're not
exploring psychedelics?" Then you're sort of an
armchair Buddhist, a Buddhist from theory. a Buddhist
from practice, but it's sort of training wheels
practice. I mean, the real thing is, take the old boat
out and give it a spin.'"

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I wasn't clear, sorry, but I don't chew enough salvia to trip. But chewing a quid makes my physical self extremely relaxed, yet my mental self aware and focused. Last night, though, I did "auto talk" or something.. really wierd. I recorded my salvia induced session and for some reason every few minutes or so on the tape I said some really self revealing things, things that I had never taken into account before. Things that overall helped me. (and things that I didn't remember saying at all) Everything was so clear, I ended up apologizing to several people that I felt deseved one, and now I just value life in a completely different way. Unlike before, I want to be on good terms with everyone, at all times.. should anything happen to them or me. Life is precious :)

Peace

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Originally Posted by mrdevious

are you actually trying to tell me drugs don't alter the thought process? wow...

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they change the way your physical brain feels, and as such, might alter the method which your brain sends thought to the mind, but ultimately, you still observe thought the same way no matter how impaired you are.


thought observation comes in only two fassions: observe thought, or dont.

the "altered throught process" is self inflicted, as a result of the physical feel of the drug, you might think you are thinking differently.

there is only one way to think; observe thought. drugs dont change this thought observation. thoughts and the observing thereof are completely metaphysical in nature, so no amount of any drug will ever change thought process, just the thoughts you decide weather or not to observe.

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I don't hold to the truth that all of life is suffering.

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To clarify, buddhist thought isn't that all life is suffering. it's more that the defining characteristic of life is suffering, in it's natural state, and it proposes a means of freeing ones self of that suffering.

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but meditation being more than just a buddhist phenomena, we can't really point to buddha as the best meditator can we? the best buddhist perhaps, but not the best meditator by necessity.

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actually yes, i did mean that, that buddha would be the best meditator in the buddhist tradition, but I guess I didn't word that very well.

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I've heard people describe the meditative state as something seperate life. For the taoist its more like becoming closer to life.

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hmmmm, this is interesting because I actually consider meditation as your desribe it in the taoist sense. maybe this is why (at least partially) why china largely combined taoist and buddhist thought. I actually admire and revere taoism very much in its philosophy, I just found more personal meaning in buddhism. as you said, it's the "flavour" that appeals to me as well. plus, I've never been big into the multiple gods and dieties that taoism has, but the philosophy on living itself is excellent.

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Maybe just in that the focus is on all of life and not just the illusion of our seperation (self).

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actually, while buddhism puts a lot of emphasis on the self, we still believe in the understanding of and compassion for all life very much. the point of buddhist practice is to remove all illusion so as to be in perfect harmony with all life and existence. hence why killing is prohibited whether it be a human being, or a worm. A true buddhist indeed strives to understand and be one with nature.

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I dunno, mostly I consider buddhism and taoism as two expressions of the same thing

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the more I think of it, the more I agree with this. like two different (and in some cases very similar) approaches to the same goal. actually many times in history buddhist and toaist philosophers have congregated in huge philosophical discussions to give each other more understanding.

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Oh right, so anyway, whether the "self" is altered or not, meditation can still occur. You do realise that you can hold to and be aware of the meditative state all the time don't you?

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absolutely, the extinction of "self" is not the extinction of consciousness, buddhism places a huge emphasis on awareness. we're encouraged to maintain awareness of our surroundings, situation, and current state of mind at all times, rather than being constantly lost in distracting scattered thoughts as most people do.

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A trip can be like living a lifetime in an hour. Some people don't know how to focus right, and create a nightmare for themselves. But other people can focus on something else, and can create amazing experiences.

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that it can. The mushroom trip I had was an amazing spiritual experience that made me and my best friend both finally clearly figure things out in our lives. I really believe in exploring consciouesness in all sorts of ways, I just don't like the idea of psychadelics being the only way, because then it becomes a lazy mans way of conscious exploration without training the mind in it's natural state.

personally, im a fan of all schools of thought in some form or another and try to incorporate all the bits that i find useful

yes, im one of the extremely nerdy enough to call ourselves 'jedi' (there are several 'jedi temples' just do a google, and you will find many of the articles written there have a base in a variety of different schools)

for example, i completely agree with the buddhist philosophy of drugs /emotions clouding our sight from the true self, on the other hand, i believe that certain natural substances like the herb, salvia, mushrooms, all can have very beneficial effects on meditation as a whole... after i did mushrooms a couple times, my meditation became much more profound, without any substances, and without attempting actual 'meditation' during the mushroom experience