Are these signs?

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Originally Posted by Mellow Man

personally I believe Jesus is coming! and is now sending out the 7 angel mesage!.........call me nuts but I believe infact I believed before any of these big news breaking storys have come upon us!..................

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You're nuts. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Jesus said he was coming back in the lifetimes of the people he was talking to in the first century, not that he would wait 2000 years. Since he didn't come back in the timeframe he set out the whole ridiculous prophecy can be rejected. Here is the proof, straight from the Bible, in case you don't believe me.

Matthew 16:28. Jesus says:

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Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

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Matthew 23:36. After explaining the things that would happen in the Second Coming, Jesus says:

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Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

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Matthew 24:34. And in case you didn't catch that, Jesus was kind enough to repeat himself:

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Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

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And this isn't just Matthew's perspective on things. The other Gospels report the same lies coming from Jesus' mouth:

Luke 9:27.

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But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

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Mark 9:1.

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And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

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Originally Posted by ermitonto

You're nuts. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Jesus said he was coming back in the lifetimes of the people he was talking to in the first century, not that he would wait 2000 years. Since he didn't come back in the timeframe he set out the whole ridiculous prophecy can be rejected. Here is the proof, straight from the Bible, in case you don't believe me.

Matthew 16:28. Jesus says:

Matthew 23:36. After explaining the things that would happen in the Second Coming, Jesus says:

Matthew 24:34. And in case you didn't catch that, Jesus was kind enough to repeat himself:

And this isn't just Matthew's perspective on things. The other Gospels report the same lies coming from Jesus' mouth:

Luke 9:27.
Mark 9:1.

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Due not getting into this huge debate and stuff but what you just listed to me from the scriptures refere to our time! it's obviouse you don't see the truth there and perhaps may even have a shallow understanding of the scriptures....the generation the Lord speaks about is the generation that see's Isreal become it's own nation! that was in 1948! that generation shall not pass away before my second coming not the generation of the Lords day???????....it's obviouse dude you havent researched things with the scriptures and to understand the lords words and context of things are easy for a man of faith!..................I read all those site you listed they are antichrist all the way! in one of those sites they said Jesus was agaist familys lol because he said clearly I come to turn mother agaist daughter/and daughter agaist mother son agaist father and father agaist son,,,,so with that said one of those site you listed think jesus was promoting hate and disfunction lol ...see what I mean! the real meaning is once you except me into your life you will see others in a different light,and you will be rejected because of my truth and for believeing me,you will even fall from your own family because you are no longer on the same page!!!!!...........see what I mean,thoses people who take a poke at the lords word have to come to the holy spirit before they can even begin to see...........no comment my friend about the EU thing I mentioned even as a skeptic doesn't that make you wonder why??????.............you never even mentioned it in your post,infact you completely jumped right over all of it!...........

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Originally Posted by ermitonto

You're nuts. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Jesus said he was coming back in the lifetimes of the people he was talking to in the first century, not that he would wait 2000 years. Since he didn't come back in the timeframe he set out the whole ridiculous prophecy can be rejected. Here is the proof, straight from the Bible, in case you don't believe me.

Matthew 16:28. Jesus says:

Matthew 23:36. After explaining the things that would happen in the Second Coming, Jesus says:

Matthew 24:34. And in case you didn't catch that, Jesus was kind enough to repeat himself:

And this isn't just Matthew's perspective on things. The other Gospels report the same lies coming from Jesus' mouth:

Luke 9:27.
Mark 9:1.

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I also noticed that you gave all those qoutes of the scripture only in partial form not in it's complete form also left out text before and after those lines of scripture......................for example:there is a part in the scriptures that says there is no god! but a line up before that says only a fool! says ther is no god!....................anyhow read a little of this,it shows that no one exspected it to be that generation of jews!...........................this all tie's into your scripture post you already mentioned..


The Early Church Knew that the Lordâ??s Return was NOT Imminent



There is significant Biblical evidence that the early church had good reasons not to expect His imminent return. Of course, they had the same words of Jesus that we have! So anything He said that we might think refer to His imminent return could not have meant His imminent return to them! Since we know that Jesus meant what He said to them as well as to us, perhaps we should come to the same conclusion that they did!

Here are some examples.



Peter Knew that He Would Die before Jesus Returned



Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. (John 21:18-19)

Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. (2 Peter 1:14)

Imagine that we had the opportunity to talk with the Apostle Peter after Jesus had died, arisen from the dead, and ascended into heaven. Remember, Peter had been very close to Jesus. He was obviously very familiar with what Jesus said in chapters 24 and 25 of the Gospel of Matthew. But, in spite of those words of Jesus, if you had asked Peter, â??Peter, do you think Jesus might return today?â?� Peter would have replied, â??No. Not today. Because He showed me by what kind of death I should glorify him, when I am old. He will not return in my lifetime.â?� (Then, I suspect, Peter would have given us the explanation of the passages that may seem to teach imminency that you will read in this paper!)



Paul Knew that He Would Go to Rome before Jesus Returned



And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. (Acts 22:21)

And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. (Acts 23:11)



If we had asked Paul before he went to Rome if he thought Jesus would return today, Paul would have said, â??No. Not today. He has showed me that I must first go to Rome to bear witness of Him.â?�



The Early Church Knew that They Must Take the Gospel to the World before Jesus Returned



But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Acts 1:8)



If you had asked a Christian shortly after Jesus ascended into heaven if he or she was familiar with what Jesus had said that is recorded for us in Matthew chapters 24 and 25, they would almost certainly have said, â??Of course!â?� If you had followed that up by saying, â??Then you believe that Jesus could return today, right?â?� They would have said, â??No. Not today. He told us that we must take the gospel to the uttermost part of the earth first!â?�



Jesus Taught His Disciples Not to Expect His Imminent Return



And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. (Luke 19:11-15)



While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept... After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. (Matthew 25:5, 19)

These disciples believed (and hoped) that Jesus was soon going to set up His kingdom on the earth. In Luke 19, Jesus corrects them. He compares Himself to a nobleman that went into a â??far countryâ?� and gave instructions to â??occupyâ?� until he returned. He proceeds to remind them that they will have responsibilities to fulfill in terms of stewardship before He returns. In fact, inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luke tells us that the very reason Jesus taught this parable was because some people â??thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.â?�

And even in Matthew 25 Jesus compares His coming to that of a bridegroom who â??tarriesâ?� and who returns â??after a long time.â?� He did not intend for them (or us) to expect an imminent return, but instead to plan on an extended time of serving Him on earth before His return.



Christians in Thessalonica Erred in Assuming the Return of Christ was Imminent



Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

Some of the Thessalonian Christians had evidently become focused on the possibility that they were already far into the tribulation and that Jesus could return soon. It is reasonable for a suffering church to think that perhaps they are going through the last great tribulation. And certainly the Thessalonians were a suffering church (1 Thessalonians 2:14; 3:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:4-6). But Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, knew that they were being premature. He wanted them to learn to â??stand fastâ?� (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and to be â??established in good words and worksâ?� (2 Thessalonians 2:17). He knew that they had work to do before the Lord returned. So he reminded them that there were some things that would occur before the Lord returned (viz., the revelation of the Antichrist and the great apostasy).

If the return of Christ were considered to be imminent, Paul would surely have reminded them that they and he would be raptured before the events described in these verses occurred.



What about References to His Coming as a â??Thief in the Night?â?�



But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (Matthew 24:43)

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (Revelation 16:15)

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)

Pretribulationalists usually assume that the idea of Jesus coming as a â??thiefâ?� necessarily means that His coming is imminent. This is not the case. Letâ??s consider these passages one at a time.

Matthew 24:43

The verse from Matthew 24 must be taken in context. In fact, in Matthew 24 Jesus is teaching against the idea of imminency. He is reminding His disciples that before He returns, there will be the time of the great tribulation. Only one return is mentioned in Matthew 24â??a posttribulational return. In verse 21, Jesus warns, â??For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.â?� Then, in verse 29 He proceeds to relate what will happen â??Immediately after the tribulation of those days.â?� And in verse 30 He says, â??And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.â?� This is obviously a posttribulational return. And there is no mention of any return or rapture before the tribulation given in Matthew 24. (Which is interesting in and of itself, since this is the longest discussion given by Jesus of the end times.)When Jesus warns that the church should watch for His coming â??as a thiefâ?� it is in the context of being aware of the fact that His coming is near, after the events of the great tribulation! (Verse 33: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.)

A close reading of Matthew 24 makes it clear that we are first to watch for the signs associated with the time of great tribulation, then expect an imminent return.



Revelation 16:15

The all important Bible interpretation principle of â??contextâ?� applies to Revelation 16:15 as well. As you read the book of Revelation from beginning to end, you find a description (with powerful symbolic imagery) of the great tribulation, followed by the signs in the sun, moon, and stars, followed by the time of Godâ??s wrath. Godâ??s wrath is described in the sounding of the trumpets, followed by a description in terms of the bowls of His wrath. Near the very end of all these things, just before the last bowl of wrath is described, He warns us that He is coming as a â??thief.â?�

Clearly, the warning is parallel to the warning of Matthew 24. Christians are to watch for the signs accompanied by the great tribulation, then be on the alert for our Lordâ??s appearing.



1 Thessalonians 5:2-4

This passage contains an interesting comment in verse four. â??But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.â?� It fits perfectly with what we have seen in Matthew 24 and Revelation 16. The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. But Christians who understand the signs the Lord has given us (related to the time of the great tribulation) can be prepared, so that they are not overtaken as a thief.

It is also important to consider very carefully the meaning of the phrase, â??The Day of the Lord.â?� The Day of the Lord is a very specific Biblical prophetic phrase with a definite meaning. The â??Day of the Lordâ?� does not begin until the after great tribulation has passed. You can study the Biblical details of that issue in my general paper on posttribulationalism. The point, of course, is that Christians who take the Lordâ??s prophecies about the end times seriously will not be surprised when the Day of the Lord comes. He has left us signs so that it is not necessary â??that that day should overtake you as a thief.â?�



2 Peter 3:10

This passage also references â??The Day of the Lord.â?� See the comments above.

It should also be clear that if even one passage that refers to Jesus â??coming as a thiefâ?� does not demand an assumption of imminency, that none of the others would necessarily demand that assumption.



Does Our Lordâ??s Command to â??Watchâ?� Require that We Accept Imminency?



Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only... Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 24:34-36, 42-44)

The same comments that explain the Matthew 24:43 reference to the â??thiefâ?� (see above) relate to these comments.

Our Lord gave us many signs to indicate the general time of His return. He delineates these in Matthew 24 and other passages. However, He warns us that the specific time (â??day and hour,â?� â??watch of the night,â?�) of His coming cannot be known.

In effect, the Lord says, â??Be alert. Watch for these things to happen. When you see them happen you can know that the My return is getting close. But you will not know the exact time of My return. So when you see these things begin to happen, be ready!â?�


You see it was talked about as a further future event rather then a present day event!............................dude open the scriptures and stay out of the antisites,what you should do if interested study the scriptures for yourself and perhaps then people on the net can't lead you to follow them.......

but personally I was kinda agnostic my whole life until the last few years,less just say I had a calling for truth!..........the bible up to that point before I truly believed with my heart was just giberish!...............

everything in this world is a sign. i think that when u reached a certain level of consciousious (fuck sorry for the spelling), well u can be pretty aware about every signs, like simply meeting someone in the street, or whatever, and then u can see the meaning of it.

i think that everything has a meaning in a certain level.

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Originally Posted by mellow mood

everything in this world is a sign. i think that when u reached a certain level of consciousious (fuck sorry for the spelling), well u can be pretty aware about every signs, like simply meeting someone in the street, or whatever, and then u can see the meaning of it.

i think that everything has a meaning in a certain level.

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Absolutly right!,nothing happens by Chance!,All things are in motion and run into one another........people fail to see that though....

I believe that's the theory of causality. for instance, this very thread ended up with me being elected prime minister ;)

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Originally Posted by Mellow Man

I also noticed that you gave all those qoutes of the scripture only in partial form not in it's complete form also left out text before and after those lines of scripture......................for example:there is a part in the scriptures that says there is no god! but a line up before that says only a fool! says ther is no god!....................anyhow read a little of this,it shows that no one exspected it to be that generation of jews!...........................this all tie's into your scripture post you already mentioned..

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If you didn't notice, I provided links so that people could look for themselves at the points in the Bible where these things are said. I'm not going to post whole chapters of the Bible here. If you want to read the relevant chapters and get the context yourself, I've provided you with the means to do that and don't feel obliged to go any further.

If there are parts of the Bible that say that Jesus' return wasn't going to happen soon, congratulations, we've found yet another contradiction in the Bible. That does nothing to redeem the logical consistency of Biblical dogma. Jesus went out of his way in those verses I quoted to say that he was returning within the lifetimes of some of the people who stood there. I simply do not see any possible interpretation of that statement that allows for a far-off Second Coming. It's not as if I haven't looked at the context of the verse; it really is made very clear that Jesus was not speaking of a time 2000 years from then. See this essay for more on that topic.

If we are to watch for the signs of tribulation, it was rather foolish of God to not give us some really definite criteria for what counts as a positive sign. Every generation since the founding of Christianity has believed itself to be in the time of greatest tribulation and thus has had its thinkers which have advocated that the Second Coming is imminent. Society has always been in a state of struggle, and has always had to deal with extreme hardships, throughout all of human history. In the Christian view, God keeps sending us all these immense problems, and we're supposed to wait for immense problems to arrive as the sign of the impending End of the World. That just makes absolutely no sense to anybody with a working brain. It also sends the message that no matter what we do, our society will degenerate to a point where things are worse than they were during that time when Christian dogma ruled the world (the Dark Ages), which of course diffuses people's will to change society for the better, since Christianity teaches them that all such efforts are ultimately pointless.

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Originally Posted by ermitonto

Every generation since the founding of Christianity has believed itself to be in the time of greatest tribulation and thus has had its thinkers which have advocated that the Second Coming is imminent.

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i can't help but notice how closely this sounds to our government of today and how it uses fear to control people, but like i've said before i believe the bible was made up by man to put fear into other men, possibly for slavery, possibly for major outbreaks of crime, why exactly? i don't know. i do know this, your god is supposed to be perfect, yet there are so many flaws and contradictions throughout the bible. seems easier to believe that man made this book up (who are known for having flaws, no one human is perfect, never was never will be) than to believe your perfect god, incapable of 'screwing up' made it up

Many Christians try to rationalize their belief in the Bible by claiming that it was inspired by the word of God but written by imperfect humans. But of course, they refuse to give us Bibles where all the imperfect human material is highlighted, because they propose no way of separating the bullshit from the rest of it. I haven't seen a single Christian go through the thing and try to pick out the inconsistencies. We've had to do all of the work for them: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...a/by_name.html

i do believe that there is something each person is meant for and once he has accomplished it he passes away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

mellow man,,,, i think ermitonto is gonna win this war of words,,,,,,,,,,