Does God Exist? Scientific proof!!

What if there are just infinitely larger organisms? that control or influence those smaller than them? Every step we take we make huge changes to microscopic lifeforms.. and hell, if atoms were somehow conscious, we rock their world every time we breathe or blink!

Something that always gave me a headache when I was a kid was thinking about the end of space, and what comes after the boundary if space were to end somehow. It has to be an infinite expansion, but how do you create anything infinite? and if space is currently expanding, than what is it expanding into! nothing? how did the nothing get there? where is the nothing going?


Sides, god cant show him or herself.. anyone else seen dogma? If it spoke we would explode:jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by Antipas

The boundaries that make up our existence are space time and matter.
God must exist beyond the thing that He has created, outside that circle that gives you a headache when you think about it.

If God exists, He must be above all things, He must be single or simple, not divided or in parts, He must also be beyond space, and matter and motion, or what we know as "time".
-This doesn't mean He can't interact in existence. In fact, given the nature that He must be if He exists, He would be the one who continually sustains us through our time (matter in motion). He could not start us at one point in time and then not be there the rest of the time because it would require Him to be existing in time,-which is a part of our circle of existence, space time and matter. The Ontos of the Creator must be outside that circle. He can "get into the car and drive it" so to speak, but He must exist beyond it.

So then what can God be likened to that is not space time and matter? We are left with "nothing" when we deduct everything in our existence.
Do we say that God is nothing? It is irrational to think that "nothing" can produce our existence. There something beyond our existence that we can only observe as "nothing" from where we stand, but we know He must be there by the fact of our existence. "Nothing" didn't make us. "Something" did. Let's call this "something" God, so as to better describe the "something" that we can only observe as "nothing" from where we stand.

Deductive arguments can give us a better understanding about what is real. How does smoking pot work on those headaches you get from thinking on the Ontos of God?

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Pot helps :D

I only meant infinite is a hard thing to comprehend. If there is a god, and he exists outside of our bubble, who made his bubble? another god? Or does his bubble go on forever? And why is it that his bubble can continue forever?

infinitely larger organisms is one of the answers my poor little brain pulled out after being cooked by the questions of how the hell can things just keep going forever as a kid :)

not to throw this thread off topic.. but what if we only exist in our own circle? That handles the infinite problem.. just take range of vision as an example.. It's not perfect, but it'll work I think for what I'm trying to say.. We could shoot through space in an infinite distance assuming we don't die first, and of course never find the end no matter what speed we traveled, were it even greater than the speed of light... impossible.. i kno, that's not the point.. But, only a small bubble of space exists to us without communication to others far away, we know what we can see, and that's about it.

What if that is all that exists at that point? our bubble of vision, Then while we could travel infinitely and experience constantly different sights and locations, we still are only in the center of our bubble.

Our bubbles move with us.

sort of a self centered way of seeing things :P my mother nearly slapped me once when I told her that one.. That I effectively thought I was the center of the world.

Do I believe in an Ultimate Being? Yes

Do I even come close to trusting organized religion? Ya, sure, about as far as I can throw Manhatton!

Other than that this is an awesome thread. Good debate on both sides.

I get what you're saying Antipas, however, the question of god requiring a creator is a logical question.

The complexity of life is generally used as "proof" of a creator. Why then does this infinitely complicated being not also require a creator for the same reasons? That spirit is different than mass and motion and somehow works by different rules is a statement of faith not logic.

Ultimately it boils down to an argument of faith against the argument of logic.

However one justifies that we require a creator, the same logic can be applied to god. If you have to take a leap of faith to presume that god needs no creator, what is the logical reason for not just simplifying and saying we need no creator?

Many believers call this arrogance. I say that it is the arrogance of man that demands that he be a special creation of some all-perfect being. The idea that man is the result of random chance is humbling rather than a source of arrogance.

"I say that it is the arrogance of man that demands that he be a special creation of some all-perfect being"

Well said, BB.:cool:

Applies to recursive Turtles as well, yah?:D

Aloha thinking man.

Weeze

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Originally Posted by Weezard

Applies to recursive Turtles as well, yah?:D

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lol, I love a recurring theme . . . :D

"behold the turtle of enormous girth
upon his shell he holds the earth
his thought is slow, but always kind
he holds us all within his mind
if you want to run and play
come along the beam today"

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Originally Posted by bikeTripper

Man, I love a good infinite regression.

"Turtles all the way down..."

:D

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Originally Posted by halfassedjedi

im not catching your witty point.

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:D

HERE

I had to Wiki it myself...

very fitting, indeed

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Originally Posted by BlueBlazer

"behold the turtle of enormous girth
upon his shell he holds the earth
his thought is slow, but always kind
he holds us all within his mind
if you want to run and play
come along the beam today"

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YA BOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIII!!!

LOL

I used to work at Petco. Every time I had to fug w/ the turt/torts I though of this :D

Antipas you're very eloquent and it's obvious you've thought on this deeply.

Only problem I can see is this, if I agree that matter, motion, time, and space (sounds like the lead-in to a TV show) needs to come from "somewhere" and is expanding into "something" doesn't necessarily mean that somewhere and something is god. That conclusion requires faith, not logic.

Indeed, everything we know could exist within the science kit of a nerdy adolescent, whose universe exists within the science kit of a nerdy adolescent, etc, etc, etc. All I know for sure is a turtle is heavily involved somewhere . . . :wtf:

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I'd say it requires just as much "faith" and logic to believe that there isn't a God, as it does to believe that there is a God.

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OK. I can live with that. :D

It can't be proven either way.


Edit ~ I'm not a real big fan of Hawkings either for what it's worth.