finally, an honest man who is willing to admit that he sees the individual as merely an unimportant cog in the vast machine.
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finally, an honest man who is willing to admit that he sees the individual as merely an unimportant cog in the vast machine.
"the needs of the many...outweigh, the needs of the few?"-spock
Sometimes the needs of the few or the one outwiegh the needs of the many. Captain James T. Kirk.
We in the US are a republic not a demacracy. It is ALL about the ONE.
Many ones make a majority and that rules. Rome was a republic.
With out free thinking individuals we would not be aloud to have this conversation.
:thumbsup:...Quote:
Originally Posted by LOC NAR on probation
Amen, technically each state was intended to be it's own individual republic. The states created the federal government and gave it limited powers. Ultimately the little republics should be allowed the Big republic, unfortunately the states keep losing powers while the Feds keep seizing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOC NAR on probation
I think that a lot of you are unfairly bashing socialism. It is important to understand that many of the socialistic policies in this country exist because of the failures inherent within a capitalistic, conservative, system of government. If our government was able to provide the basic necessities to anyone willing to work for them, their would be no need for socialism. The welfare state would not exist if the average American was able to provide for themselves and their family on a working wage. The socialistic policies which have been adapted by the American government over the years are there to address certain domestic failures within the federal government.
The reality is that there are millions of Americans out there with no health insurance, no life insurance, and no savings. These are honest hard working people who are simply unable to make the money needed to take care of themselves. What are they supposed to do? How are they supposed to take care of their families? The government is not helping these people in any way. Yet they pay taxes. They pay money to the federal government in the hopes that they will use it to provide for the common people.
A lot of people forget why we pay taxes. We don't pay it for the privilege of simply living in this country, we pay it so that the government can make things better. We pay it so that the jobs we pay them to do get done. Its not just some gigantic bank account that the members of our government can use as they please. But nowadays that's what it seems like. Hundreds of billions of our dollars are spent on things that wont even effect us.
Saying that things like the unemployment program, medicare, and section 8 housing, are a waste of money is just plain fucked up. Millions of people rely on that money to survive and that's a fact. These people have done nothing wrong, they have tried to do everything they could and because of failures within our government there is a wall they cannot climb.
In the end it all comes down to empathy. The ability to feel any sort of connection to your fellow man. If you can eat lobster every night while your neighbor starves, then I don't know what to tell you. Its all apart of this idea that the government is not responsible for the well being of the American citizens. Think about what this country would be like if everyone simply had the "chance" to live a peaceful life. Apparently that's what America used to be like.
The government isn't responsible for providing financially for American families. We come back to personal responsibility. Anyone is capable of surviving on wages made form working the most menial job, they simply have to budget their money. If they are uneducated, unskilled, and unable to find a decent paying job they shouldn't have children. It is not the tax payers responsibility to pay for someone's kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramulux
If they don't have health insurance they need to look for a job that will cover them and their family or buy a private plan. If health insurance is important to them they can sell their tv, downgrade their car, move into a cheaper apartment, eat less, etc. I don't have a fucking savings account, but I also don't think anyone else should provide me with one! If saving money were important to me I would not smoke weed, buy so many books, drink beer, and have an HDTV.Quote:
The reality is that there are millions of Americans out there with no health insurance, no life insurance, and no savings. These are honest hard working people who are simply unable to make the money needed to take care of themselves. What are they supposed to do? How are they supposed to take care of their families? The government is not helping these people in any way. Yet they pay taxes. They pay money to the federal government in the hopes that they will use it to provide for the common people.
I also disagree with the current tax code, however, why should they get more from the government than the average citizen?
We also have charity hospitals in most major cities. Free health care is already being provided in the form of these free hospitals and clinics. No, they aren't great and the lines are ridiculous, but it is far better than nothing. If you can't afford to pay it on your own, you can't complain about the charity already being extended by the tax payer.
No, we pay taxes for protection in the form of a military, the postal service, interstate road's (which was only allowed under the constitution under the argument of military transport in the case of war) , police stations, fire departments, schools etc. These are the common good programs our taxes are meant to support. We don't pay taxes so a certain portion of the population can get special benefits. How do special benefits for some fit into the common good?Quote:
A lot of people forget why we pay taxes. We don't pay it for the privilege of simply living in this country, we pay it so that the government can make things better. We pay it so that the jobs we pay them to do get done. Its not just some gigantic bank account that the members of our government can use as they please. But nowadays that's what it seems like. Hundreds of billions of our dollars are spent on things that wont even effect us.
And yes, the federal government squanders a lot of our tax dollars, most of which is pumped into social programs that don't accomplish a goddamn thing.
Actually many of them have done things wrong. They pop out children like they are going out of style, many don't have jobs, a portion are illegal immigrants who have never paid taxes other than sales tax. Have you ever thought that if we pulled the funding slowly they would find a way to survive? Yes, some are good people who have simply gotten a few bad breaks, but to assume they are all good and deserving people is ludicrous.Quote:
Saying that things like the unemployment program, medicare, and section 8 housing, are a waste of money is just plain fucked up. Millions of people rely on that money to survive and that's a fact. These people have done nothing wrong, they have tried to do everything they could and because of failures within our government there is a wall they cannot climb.
"Empathy" is the reason people donate to charities. I don't think anyone opposes charitable contributions, however it should be up to the individual who they give their money to. I don't want to support some crackhead with 10 children and I should not have to, nobody should be required to do so.Quote:
In the end it all comes down to empathy. The ability to feel any sort of connection to your fellow man. If you can eat lobster every night while your neighbor starves, then I don't know what to tell you. Its all apart of this idea that the government is not responsible for the well being of the American citizens. Think about what this country would be like if everyone simply had the "chance" to live a peaceful life. Apparently that's what America used to be like.
Everyone does have a "chance" to live a peaceful life. I think you misunderstand what "chance" means. It doesn't mean everyone is entitled to a peaceful and easy life.
You say that is what America used to be like, but I get the impression history isn't your strong point. Our country used to be made up of small and hard working farmers and merchants whoworked hard on a daily basis for their necessities and lived simple lives. These people did not think they were entitled to things they were not able to afford. Today, many of the poor have cell phones, cars (with massive stereo systems and rims) and/or nice clothing etc. Do you really believe the poor of American past had luxuries?
The owner of the convenience store across the street is a Vietnamese immigrant who had to live with 20 other people in a 2 bedroom apartment when he first came over. He now owns two stores and is doing well and providing for himself, his children went to college, etc. The difference between him and the people you are speaking of is that he realized he had to work in order to achieve the "American Dream." He didn't believe the "American Dream" should be given to him gift wrapped in $100 bills!
it has never been my intent to "bash" socialism. it is a perfectly viable alternative to the free-for-all of capitalism and there are many people in this world that are content with its restrictions. i do, however, think we should be honest about the ramifications of living under such a system. socialism is about the destruction of the individual. it is a system which demands by its very nature that an elite few maintain control over the masses. all this talk of the corporate elite and the undue influence of the wealthy may have some validity, but socialism does not change any of that. it merely codifies who maintains that power. the concepts of democratic socialism and a classless society are pipe dreams or even outright lies, there will always be an elite. it is merely a matter of how we determine who is in control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramulux
the beauty of capitalism and a free market is that anyone, no matter their background, may attain the power needed to influence the society. of course few will, but the possibility is always there. there are no guarantees and the risks are great, but there is no artificially imposed ceiling on how high one might rise. the downside is that failure is a possible outcome. without government's parental hand to even out the playing field, the vagaries of a market in the control of the people may squash the budding entrepreneur and send him into poverty. with such freedom comes risk.
the positive side of socialism is that risk is eliminated and mediocrity becomes the standard of excellence. for most of the society it is a straightforward existence, with little demand and a guarantee of survival. within such a society everyone has his place and poverty may even be eradicated, but at the loss of the individual and his potential. only the extremely driven few ever seek excellence under such a system and they are usually shunned unless their work provides some immediate use for the society.
the entire purpose of this poll is to see how many of you believe that the possibility of excellence is worth the risks involved. i have my doubts as to whether its outcome will be of any use, so many seem not to understand the meaning of the term "individual" and others are too involved with the details of our political mess to see a broader picture.
Jagged Edge, your completely misinterpreting what I was trying to say. This isn't about the government giving people whatever they want or giving them handouts. I don't understand how you think that everyone has the ability to survive financially in this country. Have you not heard about the tent cities popping up everywhere? Are you not aware of the hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their jobs? Do you honestly think that there are people out there with HDTV's and expensive apartments who are complaining about not having health insurance? So many people are already barely scraping by with the basic necessities and they aren't wasting their money on superfluous crap. You are really not understanding the situation that many people find themselves in today.
You are also trying to make it seem as if all welfare recipients are crack heads with 10 kids, what the fuck is wrong with you? Could you buy into a stereotype any harder? Obviously there are going to be assholes who try to abuse the system but to just decide that everyone who receives government aid is doing something wrong is ignorant. I understand that you think its all about every man for himself, and that would be fine if every man had the same opportunities as everyone else.
You seem to be stuck in the 50's. I am sure that at that time the common man was perfectly capable of working a job and living a decent life. But its not like that anymore. Can you honestly tell me that you think someone could survive nowadays on minimum wage? There are millions of people making less than 20 grand a year and some of them have families. I realize that if your poor you probably shouldn't have kids, but what about people who have to support their parents, siblings, or grandparents. Also, think about people with illnesses or disabilities. Medicare is absolute shit, and disability checks are never enough to provide the treatment that so many of these people need. I realize that this is hard for you to understand because you have everything you need, you have shelter, food, and entertainment so it is very easy for you to judge these people and say they aren't working hard enough or that they don't deserve any help.
If it is possible, I suggest going to one of these tent cities or even a welfare office and preach your selfish bullshit to them and see what they think. Seriously you need to talk to some "real" poor people and get some sort of understanding of what these people are going through.
My dear D. of N.
I'm the, so far, single other vote.
Why is that?
Well, someone I respect said it for me.
"the entire purpose of this poll is to see how many of you believe that the possibility of excellence is worth the risks involved. i have my doubts as to whether its outcome will be of any use, so many seem not to understand the meaning of the term "individual" and others are too involved with the details of our political mess to see a broader picture. "
You just may be fishing in the shallow end of the gene pool, my friend.
If I had a clear, and objective view of our shared reality, I would be tickled to toss out an either/or, answer.
My only consolation?
Knowing that I do not know.
Hey! It's a start.:D
Try just bein' nice to each other and see if that don't help.
Aloha,
Weezard