How subjective is music, really?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

I do call it arrogance.
It's simply a question of supposed superiority , it's one of the worst forms of snobbery.

Do you know how to repair a washing machine ?
If you don't then by that can we assume that anyone that can is more intelligent than you are ?

Is punk with it's simplistic lyrics and easy to play tunes without merit ?
I think not , punk is a social and political library of how society viewed many of the issues of thier day.

Satire manifests itself in cartoon form ,, does that mean that because cartoons are viewed as mainly for children that adults have nothing to gain from them ?

It's human to need to believe that one is in some way superior , yet when all is weighed and measured it is often found that it is not others who fall short but ourselves.. :D

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No, I don't know how how to repair a washer, and anyone who can isn't necessarily smarter than me, but they are superior IN THAT AREA. You can see it's arrogance all you like, but I'd love to read your thesis on how the guys who write for Archie are the equals of Goethe, or how the Jonas Brothers have every bit as much merit as Bruce Springsteen. People may disagree, but there is a definite hierarchy of quality that is more or less agreed upon by people with actual knowledge and appreciation of the field...i.e. people who are deeply immersed in literature may argue over whether Keats or Shelley is better, but nobody with an informed opinion will ever argue for kitsch--a love of kitsch does not make a person inferior, but it does mean their taste is lower. No disrespect to them as human beings.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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Yes, and some eyes are more discerning, or more aesthetically tuned, than others. Some twisted fucks probably find real beauty in the old Hiroshima footage, doesn't make it beautiful.

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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

Yes, and some eyes are more discerning, or more aesthetically tuned, than others. Some twisted fucks probably find real beauty in the old Hiroshima footage, doesn't make it beautiful.

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To some there is beauty in everything ,, even death.

Some are arrogant enough to believe that they have the right to define what others should appreciate without ever bothering to wonder why.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

To some there is beauty in everything ,, even death.

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Oh, I see your point there. On that we can agree--just the beauty of existence, you mean?

However, I don't know, the whole "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" just never sat with me; I've sort of been a believer in objective beauty--the Socratic idea of the Forms, if you will. It's not beautiful in someone's eyes, but as part of the Form of Beauty, I think. That's just me, though.

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Originally Posted by psychocat

And yet you chose to name some of the most succesful artists of thier time ??
How did they get lost in the crowd ?
If you're good enough then you will shine through just as those that you named did.
Yet !
I will repeat that if someone get's pleasure from something then it is validated and because you dislike it just means it's not to your taste it doesn't mean it's worthless.
If it sells then someone likes it.


I have owned many motorcycles and used to look down on anyone who rode mopeds , I lived in Holland where mopeds are everywhere .
One day I borrowed one to accompany some friends as the road we would be using was restricted to cycles and bromfietsen (the Dutch name for mopeds) , I couldn't believe how much fun I had been missing.

(A moped is any motorcycle with a less than 50cc engine)

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Yes, I did mention some very successful artists. It is very few and far between now a days where artists with actual talent become so successful. People have become very easy to entertain. Take Paris Hilton for example. She didn't do a damn thing to deserve her fame, yet would you consider her just as talented as anyone else? Shit, I can't even compare her to anyone, because getting fame out of nothing can never be because of talent. Unless you consider being a snobby brat talent?

I don't really see where you are going with the moped comment. It mostly shows how you didn't really understand them because you were so stuck on your "superior" motorcycle. I have two motorcycles, yet I've never looked down on someone that owns a moped. It's a very practical form of transportation. Who am I to judge them just because they don't feel that they should spend the extra money for more power and performance? It's not like they bought it as a status symbol like a lot of kids do when they buy sport bikes or harleys or whatever is the in thing at the time.

So at christmas time or your birthday, would you open a present to find cheesy sweater from K-mart and say it's just as good as any other present you received just because someone wrapped it in fancy paper? Or would you say that you enjoyed a present that someone spent the time on figuring you out, so they could pick the exact thing that would bring a smile to your face when you found what was inside?

I'm not saying you're a bad person for liking the music that you like. Just don't go on saying how all music is equal just because it entertains people. It's what is behind the music that differentiates whether it is actually good or not. I simply prefer music that educates the mind instead of wastes my time.

Education is admirable but is in no way a replacement for fun.
A lot of music is simply an expression of how people are feeling.

Mass appeal may not be to your taste but you refuse to allow for the idea that maybe you're missing the whole point of it.

BTW
You have very little idea of my musical tastes and just how wide and varied a selection I have collected

The motorcycle reference is in regard to how even I have been guilty of looking down on others for thier choices.

I am always grateful for gifts. :D

This was my last one , given to me by a very good friend

But doesn't mass appeal reflect the tastes of people whose tastes are not as cultivated, who are largely indifferent to music and just want something their friends think is cool?

I suppose you're right in that if millions of people like something there's SOME value to it, but in a different sense---I'm honestly convinced you can't possibly believe your own argument, that the lyrics of Bob Dylan and the lyrics of Soulja Boy are tied.

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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

But doesn't mass appeal reflect the tastes of people whose tastes are not as cultivated, who are largely indifferent to music and just want something their friends think is cool?

I suppose you're right in that if millions of people like something there's SOME value to it, but in a different sense---I'm honestly convinced you can't possibly believe your own argument, that the lyrics of Bob Dylan and the lyrics of Soulja Boy are tied.

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To compare the lyrics of Bob Dylan and Soulja Boy is absurd. However what you can compare is the emotion each songwriter produces for it's listeners. Bob maybe critically great, some of his songs very enjoyable, but to some, perhaps they want less complexity, just want something chill, to dance to, to move to. In that sense, I don't think of any less of Soulja Boy than Bob Dylan. It's all has to do with taste.

Music is for enjoyment regardless of your purpose and whos better is all subjective. There are so many variables when it comes to music, whether it's technical skills, song-writing skills, the production, the context, how conventional, the emotions. Music is not different than enjoying a painting. Some images may not appeal to all of us. Different people, different strokes. But if you take the time to really listen to it, you can find appreciation in everything.

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Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt

But doesn't mass appeal reflect the tastes of people whose tastes are not as cultivated, who are largely indifferent to music and just want something their friends think is cool?

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Well... best selling bands of all time

There's a lot of bands there that gained mass appeal that I like: The Beatles, Michael Jackson('s music lol), ACDC, Bob Marley, Led Zep, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones etc. I'm sure you'll find music you like that gained mass appeal. Maybe you are just frustrated at the bands who gain mass appeal in the present, although a lot of old bands still tour and make albums, though infrequently.

The idea of 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' is important, it obviously plays a part in music choice because it is subjective opinion. However, if this was the only factor then would there be the same consensus for certain bands? I can't help but think that advertisement plays a large role. Obviously for some people it is more influential than others but exposure to the music causes familiarity and liking for many. Whilst others either dislike the music in the first place or get sick of it through over exposure. Also this is reinforced because friends and family influence you and they are exposed to the same advertisement. Is it still beauty if you are persuaded something is beautiful? I guess it is a question of how much each persons' own opinion guided their choice, but there is no doubt I have met people who like music just because their friends like it.