Global Warming?

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

Our dumbass president likes to let market forces solve the world's problems, and that is where we are getting those jumping in to make a buck offereing solutions ---.

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It's funny you say that, because Al Gore sits on the board of his own carbon offset company.

Please keep on reading, I used to buy the global warming myth along with the rainforests are disappearing myth. In the gov screwls that I attended they taught both as if they were fact. I believe that this all has more to do with fear mongering than anything. It's now a core democrat issue, however I cringe when I hear republicans falling in line as well, just tells me who has integrity and who is just there taking up space. The fix is in, please keep on reading, did you read what fencewalker put up? I know it's from the government black helicopters blah blah, but seriousely this is a political scam, politicians are trying to use to take advantage of people. Scientific evidence at one time conclusively proved that the next ice age was just around the bend, well? What happened? Science conclusively proved at one time that ALL the worlds rainforest would be gone in 25 years, well? Satellite imagry shows that there is actually more rainforests today than their were during the 80's when that fear mongering was going on. Lots of people made money on it though, and I am not talking about coorporations, I am talking about "activists". The same crowd is now taking up global warming, and doing the same thing. There isn't nothing new under the sun folks!:jointsmile: I gotta go now, need to suffocate my wife before she destroys the planet with all her hot co2!:D

Scientest that claim man made global warming is real. Of course, they recieve government funding, their jobs depend on it.
Politicians that claim man made globla warming is real. Of course, their jobs depend on people to "need" them, create a climate of fear then make yourself the crusader of justice to find the solution.(Al Gore as well as many others) Increase taxes to subsidize scientest to solve a problems that humans have no effect on!:wtf:
The liberal news media, obviously contradicting what the "truth" is would make their political favorites look very, very bad.
Peoples that live in 3rd world countries that may be forced to continue their lives without the advent of modern technology for the sake of "saving the earth". Most 3rd world people are not going to be buying solar panels for their grass and manure huts. I forsee a time coming soon when they will not be allowed to use certian things that many of us take for granted because they "hurt the environment". Remember when they stopped spraying DDT because it was so horrible? Yeah, is it worse than malaria, or west nile?
Just ranting though, you never know you may be right dragon.:)
Maybe I am just a cooky right wing nut job.:jointsmile:

Anyone got a 55 gallon drum I can borrow, one with a lid!:D

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Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH

It's funny you say that, because Al Gore sits on the board of his own carbon offset company.

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Like I said, more power to them. There will be a lot of money made by innovative people working to solve this problem, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm just not sure market forces will be enough.

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Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH

Scientest that claim man made global warming is real. Of course, they recieve government funding, their jobs depend on it.

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There are a lot of scientists involved in studying climate change who have no stake whatsoever in a particular conclusion. My father is not a climate scientist and was not involved in the global warming debate, but he was involved in one of the longest running ocean surveys in the world. The survey began 50 or 60 years ago or more when the California anchovy fishery collapsed and has gatherd temperature data and ocean chemistry data for that entire time in a consisitent area off the CA coast. The research had nothing to do with global climate change but the data do support it.

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Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH

Politicians that claim man made globla warming is real. Of course, their jobs depend on people to "need" them, create a climate of fear then make yourself the crusader of justice to find the solution.(Al Gore as well as many others) Increase taxes to subsidize scientest to solve a problems that humans have no effect on!:wtf:

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Politicians often do exploit fear to get what they want. For example, some politicians exploit the fear of terrorism to curtail our constitutional rights. Other examples of fear mongering include political claims that environmental protections will hurt our economy. Environmentalists want us all to live in the cold and in the dark!

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Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH

The liberal news media, obviously contradicting what the "truth" is would make their political favorites look very, very bad.

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The liberal news media is a myth.

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Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH

Peoples that live in 3rd world countries that may be forced to continue their lives without the advent of modern technology for the sake of "saving the earth". Most 3rd world people are not going to be buying solar panels for their grass and manure huts. I forsee a time coming soon when they will not be allowed to use certian things that many of us take for granted because they "hurt the environment". Remember when they stopped spraying DDT because it was so horrible? Yeah, is it worse than malaria, or west nile?

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Actually many of the "green" technologies are some of the best solutions for poor people around the world. For example, many people too poor to have access to lighting after dark are begining to user solar powered LED lanterns. Many of the power technologies are much more protable than fuel-powered generators, and after they are purchased they have almost no ongoing cost for maintenance, and none for fuel.

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Originally Posted by 8182KSKUSH

Just ranting though, you never know you may be right dragon.:)
Maybe I am just a cooky right wing nut job.:jointsmile:

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Uh, mmmmmmmaybe....

Ha ha!

The biggest stakeholders in terms of money are the industries who have a vested interest in the status quo. Oil and coal companies. Car companies. Transportation companies. Much of the sceptical blather comes from these sources. It's very short sighted. In the early 70's "energy crisis" American auto makers refused to offer more fuel efficient cars, and the Japanese came in and ate their lunch. They never recovered the market share. Same thing is happening again today with the hybrids. It's happening with the energy efficient appliances. I don't see why these lazy-ass industries don't do a better job of seeing these kinds of changes as an opportuntity to get out in front of the curve. The fact is that even if you ignore global warming, our fuel costs are just getting higher and higher, so switching to greater efficiency is going to be the more affordable choice over time. Maybe market forces will save the world.

I believe that our climate is on the verge of going through a period of instability. I think the north pole is going to completely melt at least once within my lifetime.

i beleive global warming is taking place. and we do have somethig to do with it. i beleive it to be a natural event but has been sped up by us.

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Originally Posted by McLeodGanja

I believe that our climate is on the verge of going through a period of instability. I think the north pole is going to completely melt at least once within my lifetime.

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The instability is the greatest concern.

Complex systems like climate are always variable within a certain range. They have a certain amount of chaos, but also a kind of order that brings them back to predictable "averages," or equilibrium. So, for example, you might know that a certain area is good for growing corn on average --- you might have good years and bad years, but on average it's pretty reliable. When a complex system gets an outside input, like extra CO2, it can often maintain it's stability up to a point. But if the input grows too big, it reaches a tipping point where the feedbacks do not pull it into equilibrium any longer and there is a period of extreme chaos. Generally the system will eventually settle into a new equilibrium, but not the same one as before. Our challenge will be to survive the chaotic period until the new equilibrium is reached. There is likely to be unsettled weather for years which will result in crop failures, flooding, drought, and wildfires. If it is bad enough, then part of the chaos will be be the social chaos as we deal with stravation and displaced refugees. This holds true even if the warming is not manmade.

And, yes, you will see the north pole melt within your lifetime. It is only a few years away.

Last I heard 40% of it had melted, by the estimations of submarine radar. Like all floating ice, it's melts faster from the underneath than it appears to from the surface.

The Guardian Weekly went all Independent on us this week and printed a front page climate change propaganda sheet. They said within ONE year the Indian monsoon will destabilise and within 10 years the arctic ice melts and the W African Monsoon collaspes. Not sure how a monsoon can collapse, or if what they mean by those time scales is how soon it will happen or how long the "tipping point" will take to tip.

Either way I skimmed over most of the article, as I usually do, because whilst I believe we are going through a major shift in pretty much everything to do with our existance, I don't think these scientist predictions are really worth reading too much into.

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Originally Posted by McLeodGanja

Either way I skimmed over most of the article, as I usually do, because whilst I believe we are going through a major shift in pretty much everything to do with our existance, I don't think these scientist predictions are really worth reading too much into.

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Often these kinds of predictions need to be take with a grain of salt. Especially when the prediction relates to long term phenomena, but the prediction is for changes in the short term. Too many factors can complicate something like that. The idea that in one year the monsoon will collapse seems a bit precipitous to me. Do they mean no more monsoons in 2009? Or maybe they mean that once the tipping point is reached, the changes could occur in time frames as short as one year or a decade, because that I do believe.

This is one of the things that most people do not intuitively understand about complex chaotic systems. They see something like a prediction that the sea level could change by 1 meter in 100years, so they think that means it will change a centimeter per year. It doesn't work that way. Chaotic systems change suddenly and dramaticaly when tipping points occur. There might be nothing for decades and then the entire 1 meter rise could happen in a few short years. The great thing about his is that Florida will be submerged and no longer able to screw with our politics.