The Historical Jesus: Fact or Myth?

Ok, you're right to say that there's no proof that Jesus didn't or did exist. For all we know, there could very well have been a man named Jesus, or maybe there wasn't. But that wasn't really my point.

What I was trying to show was that people today, the Church as much as lay believers, feel that they need to believe in the Gospels as HISTORICAL (meaning true) documents, that the stories written in them actually happened as they appear in the books.

The author of the book I read showed, convincingly, I think, that whether or not he existed, the Gospels are myths, similar, if not almost identical, to other stories of saviours that existed in the ancient world. If you want me to type the parts where he compares Jesus' life with that of Horus, I could do it, but it's long :D Even the miracles ascribed to Jesus are often copied off miracles performed by these other religious figures.

But ultimately, if someone does have a strong and solid faith, and is able to read the Gospels on a deeper level than just blindly believing it word for word, whether Jesus existed or not is inconsequential, because the story is true on a mythological level. It represents humanity's struggle to live and to understand itself, its purpose, and it serves to show us that the Divinie is inside each of us, not only Jesus.

I hope I explained myself better this time.

you dont have to explain yourself at all...i understand exactly what you're saying, but who are you to tell people that jesus didnt exist? or that his storys are fictitious? let them believe what they wish.

we can choose for ourselves...just like we can tie up our shoes.

So the question is: Was Jesus a real man? Or is Jesus only talked about in the Bible?

So I went to the Public Library and walked down those rows and rows of books and found a book by Cornelius Tacitus, in it he says

"Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius." Annals XV.44

And when I saw this for the first time my skin crawled and I got chills down my spine Because right there for the first time in my life I was seeing the physical evidence in something other than the Bible that Jesus Christ really lived and walked on this earth. Jesus Christ really lived, he really lived, do you understand that, he walked on earth, he had legs, he had hair, he had blood and flesh, he was like me and you!! He really lived!


Here is another reference, although some claim it was added later by forgerers, in a book by Flavius Josephus (but then they would also have had to add the second reference in XX 9:1 where Josephus talks about James the brother of Jesus being executed).

Josephus wrote:

There was about this time a wise man named Jesus - if it is lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works - a teacher of the type of men who enjoy hearing the truth. He drew many of the Jews and Gentiles to him; he was the Christ. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the Jewish leaders, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold along with many other wonderful things concerning him. The tribe of Christians named for him still exists today............

And here was a non-Christian, an unbiased historian telling us this!

But that wasn't the only occurrence.

Suetoneous talks about Jesus, Plinius Secundus talks about Jesus, Thallus talks about Jesus, and the Jewish Talmuds talk about Jesus.

Flavius Josephus Antiquities, xviii 33, & XX 9:1; Cornelius Tacitus Annals XV.44; Lucian of Samosata The Passing Peregrinus; Suetonius Life of Claudius; Plinius Secundus (Pliny the Younger) Epistles X.96.


So there it is, non biased historians, saying that Jesus did live and he was crucified by Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar! Isn't funny that that is exactly what the Bible has been saying for the last 2000 years!

There's the proof that Jesus was a real man, not a metaphor, not a legend, not a fairy tale. He was a real man, real flesh and blood, real as you and me.

Rev. Michael T
Soldier for Christ

just like flesh....you dont give real solid proof. all you've given us is what someone else told you. if it cant hold its own in court, then its not good enough to be called proof. dont try and tell me that it would...cause i know for a "fact" that hearsay does not hold up in court.

I dont doubt that Jesus was real.. But I dont believe that he was the son of God, or that he performed miracles.. All that was just propaganda

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR

I dont doubt that Jesus was real.. But I dont believe that he was the son of God, or that he performed miracles.. All that was just propaganda

---

im not saying that i dont believe that too...im just stating that the possibility could be either way (true or not true) and there is NO WAY to know for certain. unless god actually came down and told you, or you use a time machine...but the odds of time travel to be possiable are probably way less, than if jesuses odds, if he really did exist. (not the odds of him being the real son of god...or if god exists at all...but jesus as a human, and only a human)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kronick

you dont have to explain yourself at all...i understand exactly what you're saying, but who are you to tell people that jesus didnt exist? or that his storys are fictitious? let them believe what they wish.

we can choose for ourselves...just like we can tie up our shoes.

---

Let me tell you something. I feel that humanity has been lied to for the past 2000 years, and if I successfully convince one person to change their views, then I'm happy. Who are you to decide to let people live in ignorance? I'm not forcing my message down anybody's throat, the information is just there and if people choose to read it and understand it, it's their choice.

I feel the need to expose something closer to the truth and make it available. Before you tell me what right I have to do this, tell me what right did the Catholic Church have to keep its members in the dark for almost a thousand years, what right did they have to kill in the name of a man who wanted nothing more than peace?

Meek Mike, it's actually been proven that those 2 exerpts were added in later by monks trying to create proof that Jesus existed. Document forgery was somewhat common in the Middle Ages, almost everytime someone copied a book, they sometimes added their own commentary and tried to make it look authentice. However, modern linguists are able to figure out which is authentice and which is added later.

Also, assuming the passages were not added later, maybe Tacitus and Josephus, who were not Christians, as you say, didn't know anything about the religion and just asked somebody "who do venerate?" and they asnwer him as you wrote above.

Look, again, my point is not to say for certain whether he existed or not, it's to say that ultimately it doesn't matter, because the Gospels follow a set pattern for religiou saviours that had existed for thousands of years before Jesus.

w.e....you dont have the right to call other people ignorant...fool


im done talking about this. i feel like ive been talking to a wall this whole time...no offence


i hope there will be no bad blood between us in the future. i have my opinions, and you have yours.

Kronick, you're a loser. I NEVER called anyone ignorant, the only one throwing insults around here is you. I'm up for any kind of debate, provided the other person actually undertands what I'm talking about, which clearly isn't the case here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F L E S H

Who are you to decide to let people live in ignorance?

---

there! right fucking there! you said it...not me, you're implying that if people dont believe you...they must be ignorant.