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Great post Oh My High very intresting but again it does not answer why things are rather than are not. Thats the main question of the thread, i guess all that other bullshit i put in there threw people off. 'Why would he care about us so much?' ( quote from Boiler Up ) You are ascribing human charicteristics to God, you enen call God "he". God is not outside of us nor is God inside the only place you can find God if you ask me is in the fact that things are rather than are not.
That's why you say "if you are a believer in the Big Bang," because it's a belief. It's a hypothesis... we just don't know. But there is definitely more plausible evidence pointing towards God not being in existence. I'm not trying to put anyone down who does believe in God, though. I'm just saying, you cannot argue legitimately for God, because there is absolutely no evidence that shows his existence, except for the Bible, which was man-made... so the Bible itself cannot be used as an argument to prove his existence either! So in other words, it's just a belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Now, personally, I am agnostic. I don't care if he does or does not exist... and I will not completely deny his existence either. Why? Because I think he could exist. But I would also say that more evidence points to science, and not faith.
But I will point you to this link: Arguments Against Christianity
Can we forget i mentioned the big bang or the bible, i fucked up. But if there was no God why is there things to study and beings to study them. The fact is that there is an objective world and a subjective world both intimatly related. This relation to me is God. But Im asking you science buffs I guess to give me your answer to the question Why is it that things are rather than are not. My perposal is if God did not exist ( Lets get this straight im not talking about any god in specific, espealy not the christian one ) there would be nothing no big bang and no ensitine so descover it ( yes i know enstine did not discover it but i hope you get the point)
*Sigh*.... And here I go again getting tumbled into another one of these...
Before we begin I suggest we drop all preconceived notions on what you think God is. The simplest and most scientifically feasible answer is that God is energy. All energy in the universe, detectable and undetectable by us. So you can see how using the word "God" can confuse an argument as the word conjures up any one of the following images:
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.
The main word that irks me when describing "God" is "being." We are beings, we are entities. That which is "God" is simply the universe. We are part of this as well.
AtmanWalter, I am going to attempt to answer your question now... You want to know why things ARE as opposed to are NOT. Well what you need to understand is that those two concepts are RELATIVE. They are relative to perception, and the perceiver. What I mean by this, is that if something is beautiful to you, it is beautiful because you perceived it to be so. Another person might perceive it to be not so beautiful. Now, I know you are referring to the tangible aspect of the universe as opposed to human opinion of tangible aspects, and Im getting to that.
What you need to understand is that we(and by we, I refer to all creatures on Earth) exist in the tangible dimensions of the universe, more specifically the first 3. Pure energy exists on a far wider dimensional spectrum and has a completely different set of qualities that define what IS or ISNT. This is something that we as humans cant seem to comprehend yet.
Things exist for us, in your words they ARE, because they are comprised of matter, and matter is energy that is condensed and specialized. So when energy coallesces to a specified purpose to the point that it is then able to exist in the 3 basic dimensions that we tangible creatures can comprehend, it then becomes perceiveable to us and thus IS. So remember that just because you perceive that something ISNT... doesnt mean it truly isnt.
In the beggining, things weren't, things came to be, as a consequence of many things that were not things before being things, for those things were something else. :D
As the original link suggests, and as suggested by others such as Stephen Weinberg and Michael Shermer, we are winners in a cosmic lottery. The "finely-tuned" universe and our "finely-tuned" position in the cosmos is simply by chance as, as the speculation goes, there were many universes with different laws of physics, different values necessary for life, and seems "finely-tuned" only insomuchas it's the way things turned out (the post hoc fallacy). Granted, of course, this is only speculation but there is the wonderful little gem called the educated guess. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
Science may never have the final answer of "why THIS way rather than THAT" but it's better than invoking god, which certainly doesn't answer anything ("Why THIS god rather than THAT").
The universe is a loop, alway expanding to its limit then compressing back into a singularity. Questions of how it all started are moot its has always been going on. If there is an Overbeing, then they are not bound by our petty perspecitve of time. Imagine if you stood outside of time, all at once
Everything is currently happening
Everything has already happnen
Everything is yet to happen
This would be the nesscary point of view of the creator of the universe, so when is not so important as it relates to why, but rather the essence of the act.
Ill make my proposition of ARE a little more clear, there is the physical reality im talking about of couse but what hasnt come up to now is the subjective ARE. There are objective things to be percived such as the universe or a beautiful woman and there are subjective things doing the seeing and perciving. Lets say you take out the universe or all the objective things about it or as you call it 'the tangible dimensions of the universe' what would happen to the subjective thing ( id like to call it the human spirit ) would it then percive nothing?, according to my interpertation of what you said it ( the subjective thing ) would still be able to percive the higher energy which you talk about, well lets hypotheticly take that away as well for the sake of argument. So now we have Nothing to be percived all that is left is the subjective which without an objective isnt realy a subjective, it aswell is nothing. So we can conclude that subject and obejct are codependnet. ( id perform the same logical experiement in the reverse but dont wana fill too much space :P) So the fact of our 'world' is that there are things to be seen and seers to see them and a relation between the two making them codependent. So walter what the hell does this bullshit have to do with God?! We cant find God by scientific objectivism, we certainly cant find God through blind faith to a religion, and we cant find God only through individual perspective. Where we can find God if you ask me is in the relation of subject and object, the relation of the objective tool of science and the subjective seeker. With no one to use science there is no science, thus disproving that science is all.
Id like to hear more about your energy thing tho, what are the higher ones you alude to?
My point exactly. We can not know how it all began because no matter what, our little human brains will not be able to comprehend it. Its like teaching a dog calculus. Also, i think it would be better to view time as not time but as another coordinate. Like when you say meet me at the intersection of 5th street and 10th avenue at 3pm. The 3pm is just another coordinate. Its hard to explain but i remember i read some stuff on time travel a couple of years ago and it explains it pretty well. There was also some stuff that i cant remember right now about howif you are at a higher altitude time actually goes by faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by ncnavguy
I think what im trying to do with this thread is say that science isnt the end all. It could be called a map of the world, but lets not forget about the map maker for he too is equaly important, not more not less, equaly.