Calling out to Weezard for LED advice

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Originally Posted by DreadedHermie

Been followin' the pics. Tell me, does it make any sense to overdrive regular T8 shoplights?

Hermie

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Hey Hermie,

Probably not. The cheapest way would be to double the T8s, unless you have a T8 fixture that fits your space perfectly and want more umph. (to use the techmnical term). It's the same with T5s, you can get the same output from a 8-light HO as a 4-light VHO. The cost of the IceCap ballast is about $160 for the big one model 660, a slightly smaller one model 430 is abt $140.
What they will handle is base on max lamp lenght and number of lamps.

The 660 does:
2 lamps 16'max or 2x8',6',5',3' or 2'
3 lamps 15'max or 3x5',4' or 3'
4 lamps 16'max or 4x4',3' or 2'

The advantage is seen best with the aquarium guys, hood is say 4' long but depth is problem. You can get the lumens of a 8 bulb into 4, plus save a little wattage, but lose a little bulb life.

I chose to use them in a hybred light 'cause there was not enough room to have more then 4 bulbs plus the LEDs in the middle.

Man, Icecap makes some other cool stuff, I see. T5 reflectors, variable speed fans, etc. NOT CHEEP. Looks top notch, though.

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unless you have a T8 fixture that fits your space perfectly and want more umph.

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Hilarious. I used that same technical term earlier myself. Talkin' 'bout lights, too (what else? ;)) And, actually, I do know a place where a couple T8 shoplights fit quite nicely ;). And punching through a canopy seems similar to pushing through some aquarium water, umph-wise.

Seems like if you cranked up a T8 it'd get more like a T5HO in terms of "bite." I don't get how these ballasts work, though. Says they'll drive combinations of different bulbs. How does each bulb know when to say "when" when guzzling down electricity? How many watts will a IC660 drive a 32W 4' NO T8 at? (Well, 4 of 'em, is the real question...) I'd think if I could get 4 regular old shoplights to burn 55W each, I'd be all over this. (Unless the heat is oppressive.)

Thanks! :stoned:

Yup, IceCap makes some nice stuff. I have the T5 reflectors, very effective, but used them on my cloner lights. I need to get another set of 4 for the hybred setup, using cheap ones on that for the time being and they suck. (another tech term)

Yesterday I worked on the hybred frame, to move the inner bulbs outward. I broke one of the 2700K bulbs, found out they are currently "irreplaceable" for the time being.(only one source; out of stock) Have a spare 6500K, but could not find it. Had to go to HomeDump to get one, the only 4' T5 bulb they had was an Normal Output (28w) Alto (3500K) got two. Now I know the IceCap ballast will drive these to 85watts, but was worried that if I used 2-NOs and 2-HOs, would they play well together. No problem, the ballast just drives them all to the max.

On T8s, you may be able to use the smaller 430 model to do 4 lamps. Somewhere I have the total wattage each model can handle, I'll look thru some of my papers and notes. I think I also have the watt levels you can get from T8 and T12s somewhere.

Calling out to Weezard.....

If you have a chance, stop by a thread by Horsemanrocks "HID & LED" in the indoor growig section. Maybe you can offer an idea or two.

Weezard,

I have been following your posts for quite sometime now. I am simply fascinated by LED grow light technology. You've had some time to play, and I have a manufacturer who will let me truly play with the array and let me put in whatever LED's I wish. I am however limited to the 1W LED's.

I'm sure you've seen all of the chinese manufactured lights. I've seen the lights from this manufacturer tested and these LED's DO put out at the advertised wavelengths. :thumbsup:

The market is currently flooded with "Tri-Band" lights of course meaning they are putting in orange with the red and blue. Is the orange worth it?:wtf:

This manufacturer has the capability to put 735nm LED's into the array for me.

What I don't know is how many of each type of LED to put in the array. I'm tinkering with their 119 LED array. I figured you would know what the optimal wavelengths were as DH's light is hauling ass with his grow from the pictures I saw in another thread. :rastabanna:

How would you suggest I break up that 119 light option? Majority 660nm, a little 640nm? Some 462nm? and then some 735nm? Again the question is in what ratio?

I'm also getting an all blue UFO for veg. What nm LED should I use for that?

The pricing is unbeatable for my test models. I can even get him to make me just and all 735nm light bulb in place of the party light. But again, I'm not sure how many LED's would be needed to match the output of the party bulb.

Any light you can shine on this would be greatly appreciated. I truly respect the fact that you build all of your stuff on a budget and it blows away lights that people spend thousands of dollars on. And you sense of humor is great....I've had many laughs from your posts!:D

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Originally Posted by ledtime

Weezard,

I have been following your posts for quite sometime now. I am simply fascinated by LED grow light technology. You've had some time to play, and I have a manufacturer who will let me truly play with the array and let me put in whatever LED's I wish. I am however limited to the 1W LED's.

I'm sure you've seen all of the chinese manufactured lights. I've seen the lights from this manufacturer tested and these LED's DO put out at the advertised wavelengths. :thumbsup:

The market is currently flooded with "Tri-Band" lights of course meaning they are putting in orange with the red and blue. Is the orange worth it?:wtf:

In my humble opinion, no.
Should do as well or mo' betta adding the same number of 660nm. leds.
I think the tri-band lights are based on a false assumption.
Somebody looked at relative bud quality 'tween HPS and low-power led grow.
They thought, as I did, what does the HPS have that the leds do not have?
Most obvious is that large spike of yellow/amber energy.
I did a side by side test. 625nm. vs. 660 nm.
Then I did a blended light test with both wavelengths.
All 660 outshines the blend.:)

So, back to thinking mode.
HPS comes up slow and fades out slow. So there is a spectral shift towards IR as it cools off.

Hmmm.
In the wild, we have a shift to red as the blue light scatters in the evening. After sundown we still have incoming energy in far red and infra red.
That's why I'm playing with the 730nm. at lights out.
I've read all about the phytochrome conversion and 730:660 role in it's conversion.
Phytochrome is clearly not the whole story here, just another clue.
But, I think the application of 730 nm. is key.

(We also get some 730 nm. in the morning pre-sunrise. Yet another avenue of interest)

This manufacturer has the capability to put 735nm LED's into the array for me.

I doubt that adding some 730nm, leds to the mix and turning them on and off with the same timer as the rest will be very useful.
But, kicking them in 10 minutes before lights-out and running them for 20 minutes after, just might be, I intend to find out.
If not? we all learned something.:cool:


What I don't know is how many of each type of LED to put in the array. I'm tinkering with their 119 LED array. I figured you would know what the optimal wavelengths were as DH's light is hauling ass with his grow from the pictures I saw in another thread. :rastabanna:

That's not all about the light, yah?
Hermie's got a :greenthumb:.

How would you suggest I break up that 119 light option? Majority 660nm,

Yes

a little 640nm?

Not so much.

Some 462nm?

Wouldn't hurt.:D

and then some 735nm?

See above.

Again the question is in what ratio?

If you are stuck with a fixed ratio array there will be compromises.
The R:B ratio will depend on your goals.
Got limited headroom? More blue.
Last few weeks of budding? More red.
4:1 seems to be a good "in-between" ratio.
My large array runs all-ahead-full at 5:1.
I can adjust the red downwards to play with the ratio.
Still fiddling with that.
Got more hints than conclusions.

The next exploration will be a variable ratio vs. time.
5:1 in the morning and evening with a slow ramp to bring the blue up for a 3.5:1 at noon then have it fade back to 5:1 in the evening. A little burst of 730 nm. at the "off n onnie" transitions and I'm hoping we can outdo HPS for half the cost in power,

I'm also getting an all blue UFO for veg. What nm LED should I use for that?

Not sure that monochrome a good idea.
Plants can and do convert wavelengths to something that chlorophyl can use.
But, TANSTAAFL.
I have never tried growing with a single color, so I won't say it can't be done well.
It just does not seem right to me, so I'll let other folks experiment with that.
That said, I'd shoot for a mix of the 2 blue peaks in the absorbtion curve.

The pricing is unbeatable for my test models.

Hmm, 'bout $135 ?

I can even get him to make me just and all 735nm light bulb in place of the party light. But again, I'm not sure how many LED's would be needed to match the output of the party bulb.

Nor am I. Seems to be a toggle with a "tipping point"
Still :weedpoke:.

Any light you can shine on this
A man after my own heart.:D
would be greatly appreciated. I truly respect the fact that you build all of your stuff on a budget and it blows away lights that people spend thousands of dollars on. And you sense of humor is great....I've had many laughs from your posts!:D

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Just had a good chuckle from yours, thanks.

More important you nudged the on switch to me "thinker".
(Just toss me a concept and I'll amuse myself for months.)

I expect we'll be learning choke from your efforts.
Welcome aboard m8!

Regards,
Weezard

Thank you so much for your input. This stuff has really been making my brain work overtime!

I will have a fixed ratio array, but at the same time I will have two led lights.

The only reason I was going to tinker with the all blue veg light is because others who have say that it takes away a lot of the stretch, and the plants still veg just fine. (So they say...I haven't personally tested this)

Trying to find the missing link here is fun. Assuming that the light is the only variable in the equation, what is it that HPS provides that LED is missing? We know from studies which wavelengths are the most beneficial. I bet the far-red is the key. Only time will tell.

So you think 5:1 is the optimal ratio?

Should I split up the blues in the "red" panel using two wavelengths? If so which nm blues should I use?

I like testing the unknown. Collectively, with many people here the most efficient and productive way within our current limits can be found.:thumbsup:

"So you think 5:1 is the optimal ratio?

Don't know about optimal, but I think 5:1 is a little red heavy for veg.
I'm running at 4:1 in the bloomery trying to limit stretch.

Should I split up the blues in the "red" panel using two wavelengths? If so which nm blues should I use? "

These should help you decide.

[attachment=o218348]

[attachment=o218349]

[attachment=o218350]

[attachment=o218351]

So, whuddaya think?

Aloha,
Weezard

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Originally Posted by Weezard

"So you think 5:1 is the optimal ratio?

Don't know about optimal, but I think 5:1 is a little red heavy for veg.

I was referring to the flowering light. I should have been more specific. I want to have a seperate light for veg. But should I still put in some 430nm blues along with the 452nm blues in the flowering light?
I'm running at 4:1 in the bloomery trying to limit stretch.



Should I split up the blues in the "red" panel using two wavelengths? If so which nm blues should I use? "

So, whuddaya think?

I'm thinkin I need to peg the 430 and 452 in the blue light. But more 452 than 430. :) But does the plant use any red light at all for the veg stage? From the research I've done it's mostly the blues that contribute to the growth in that period.

Aloha,
Weezard

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It's nice to discuss this with someone....so far it's been all solo for me. I completely followed your thread with the build of the light, but when looking at the cost to do it that way with the 15W'ers, it was more cost effective my way. Though I won't get the flexibility that you have. Give and take right?

On the funnier side of things...just read this. It might be old but a new one to me:

There once was a bud named B.C.
He grew on a 7 foot tree
Till one day I plucked him
Rolled him & smoked him
And now I can barely see! :jointsmile:

is something at which you can't sneeze.
He gets toked-up most nights.
Den he reads, an he writes.
While his babies grow bigger dan trees.

Well, a 'zard can dream, yah?:D

A grew once, some dank in Hawaii
with about 20 percent THC.
I grew dem in beds
an' I lit dem wit' leds.
Din't need no G.D. UVb!

Sometime it jus' jumps out my fingertip, sorry.:o

Wee Zard