If God exists..

I like this thread too, I am learning alot :)

GHoST:
You ask why 'God' would let the attrocities of 9/11 take place, but would 'guide' Ammie's mother to 'avert' an accident. Here's how I think it works.
What if our lives are nothing more than a means to discover answers for a 'higher intelligence'?
I wonder how cures for diseases have been discovered, because of one person's tradegy?
Is it Fate, or 'God's will', or something other?

I have heard many stories about people who have suffered a tradegy in their lives (ie, cot-death) and because of that trauma, they have dedicated the rest of their lives to finding out why this terrible thing happened, and are driven by a need to prevent that terrible thing from happening to someone else. I would be willing to bet that most of the people involved in 'exploratory medicine' and research, have suffered from that illness that they are trying to cure - whether directly, or indirectly.
Would it be fair to say, that maybe, their experience of such tradegy was 'thrust' upon them by something that we have no comprehension of (higher beings/God)? - or indeed, that those peoples lives have been moulded from the very start in order to satisfy their destiny? Natural born talent?

If we look at the great artists of our times, or the great philosophers, or prolific pioneers of medicine, etc...how is it that they are capable of doing things that exceed normal human ability? Especially if we adopt the theory that we are all born equal.
What sets those people apart?

I don't think I'm doing a good job at explaining myself here :D...my thoughts on this theory of mine, are still very disjointed.

I guess that what I'm trying to say is, shit happens - but, if we look further down the line, sometimes that shit is meant to happen for the greater good.

Of course, I cannot say that it is not an act of God (even though I don't believe in God in religious terms), anymore than I can say that it is not.

What if, the human race (collectively) is actually God?

"God created Man in the image of Himself"
Is He male, or female?...Is He androgonous?...Is He us?

I remain agnostic/atheist, until such time that I can be given absolute proof either way.
I'm not talking about inner feelings here (although I respect others beliefs and experiences)...I'm talking about absolute proof.

To think that we are sentient, is to be human - our intelligence will always cause us to ask the question "where do we come from?", or "what is our purpose?"
We must learn to enjoy and relish our gift of life, and look toward making our time here as pleasurable as possible - rather than worry so much about securing a place in the 'after-life'...
'Heaven' is right here, folks! - look around you, and you must admit that I am right - It's just us humans that make it 'Hell' to live here - Our greed and selfishness makes it so.

Just another opinion :)
Res...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juanskee

Look at evoulution for a second.
The day of the lizard:Dinasours...prehistoric 'hot'
The day of the mammals:Mammoths.Sabertooths...Ice Age 'cold'
The day of monkey/man:???/ :p .....'Both'
lol what's next :confused:
Ther's alot to be explained. Are we habitating ourselves or is something habitating us. :confused:

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I think that I would be right in saying that evolution has never been proven (?)
Even Darwin, the one who proposed such a thing, presents his case as a theory...one that, in my opinion, is given far more credence than is due.
I seem to recall that someone has put forward the notion that evolution cannot be fact, due to the impossibility that a single-cell organism (that which we are supposed to have evolved from) can evolve - by definition alone.

What if we have been genetically modified throughout time by something else?
We already know that humankind has been capable of genetic modification since cave-man times - wheat, for instance, is a genetic modification, and was not a naturally growing plant.

If we look at the human time-line, we can see that our 'progression' is accelerating at a rapid pace. In the last 30yrs alone, we have advanced to a level that borders on the science-fiction.
There are those who believe (me being one of them) that we will soon arrive at a time where we become restricted by our own mortality, as we push the boundaries of technology beyond our human perception, and rely more and more upon the processing powers of our super-computers.

And it's happening now, isn't it?

Maybe, Mother Nature will prempt us, as we move closer and closer towards the next order.

:D..let's get deep:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR

F L E S H you should read the Da Vinci code

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=5919

:)

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lol, I did, but that's not where I learned this, but the Da Vinci Code confirmed it :)

BTW, if you liked that book, read also Angels and Demons, same author but IMHO somewhat better!

I Don't Follow The Bible At All But I Believe In A Higher Power Tho... i dont know exactly why, i think its just because i dont like the thought of death being the end! I'v done a lot of research as regards physics into string theory, quantum physics etc, these studies can fuck with ur head something ruthless! The world on an atomic level becomes a mystery world of chance! In the words of albert einstein, " God Doesn't Play Dice!". So i believe even in the future, scientists will not be able to fully explain the universe. However, its not a question of science versus religion as many of the worlds leading physicists are religious ppl. Its a question of an individuals faith!
A lof of pplz arguement for th non-existance of god is look how fucked up the world is if god existed it wud b a nicer place. For instance ghost made mention of the terrible events of 9/11. Wot ppl need 2 remember is this life is a test to determine what happens in th next life... this is our chance to proove ourselves! This world was never ment to b perfect what so ever, as god wants to see how we cope in all kinds of situations, good or bad. I must say i dont think we are coping well in this world of 'an eye for an eye'... retaliation is just leading to more an more innocent deaths! Anyway thats enuf deep convo frm me time for a splif! This is a very interstin thread btw ppx keep it up!
:p

Some believe that when we find the value of Pi, we shall know the answers to all our questions of Life, the Universe, and Everything...

...mathematics, my friends...mathematics ;)

Av Had Enuf Of Fuckin Mathematics lol... its the most borin' A level subject ever... ... ... unless im stoned off me head in which case it gets interestin!

So, I asked the net if God exists...here's what I found...a very interesting arguement that I thought I would share (http://www.godexistence.com/god.htm):

"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ."
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his
new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God is good."

"Is God all powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a
moment, then he utters, "The BIBLE says many things that many of you Christians do not obey"

"Yes, Sir"

"Why then do you believe in someone that you do not obey"

-No answer.

"What purpose does it have to serve a law that you are not to keep"

"Well, I serve the law that the church has taught me"

"Then you are serving the Church not God"

-No answer.

"Here's another one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. If you can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could...in fact most of us would if we could.. .God doesn't."

-No answer.

"He doesn't does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

-No answer.

The elderly man is sympathetic, "No, you can't, can you?"

He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Err...Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?"

The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience.
"I think we're going to have a good semester, ladies and gentlemen."
He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there any evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?"

(No answer)

"Is there sickness in this world? Ugliness, immorality, hatred? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them?"

(No answer.)

The professor suddenly shouts at his student.
"WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"

The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created them, didn't he? Just like he created a Law that nobody keeps"

(No answer.)

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?"

The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world.
"All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

(No answer.)

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause.
"Don't you?"

The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"

(No answer.)
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks.
"Yes, Professor, I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly.
"Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Jesus?"

"No, sir, I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us, have you ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

(No answer.)

"Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID you haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in Him?"

"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!"

The professor smiles sagely at the underling.
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God does not exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

The student does not answer.

"Sit down, please."

The Christian sits.. .defeated.
Another student raises his hand.

"Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles.
"Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room.

"Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies, "there's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very quiet.
The second Christian continues.

"You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat, or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'.
We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further than that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than negative 458 â?? you see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.
We cannot measure cold.
Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.
Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir,it's just the absence of it."

Silence.

A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at?"

"So you 'believe' in darkness?"

"Yes."

"I'm sorry, but science says you're wrong again, sir.
Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly, you have nothing, and it's called darkness, isn't it?
That's the meaning we use to define the word.
In reality, darkness isn't.
If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give it to me in a jar. But you can't give me a jar of darker darkness, can you Professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.
"This would indeed be a good semester, would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must be in error..."

The professor goes ballistic. "Flawed...? How dare you...?"

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain."

The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control.
Suddenly he is affability itself.
He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains, "that, for example, there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad god, the Law of God and the law of the church.
You are viewing God as a concept, as something finite, something we can measure.
Sir, science cannot even explain a thought.
It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.
Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor, who has been reading it.
"Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, Professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course, there is, now look..."

"Again, I'm sorry sir, but you are wrong. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality.
Is there such a thing as injustice?
No, injustice is the absence of justice.
Isn't the law of the church a man made version of the Law of God?
Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming shade of red. He is so angry, he is temporarily speechless.
The Christian continues.

"If there is evil in the world, Professor, and we all agree there is then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?
The Bible tells us that it is to see if each one of us will, believe in the righteousness of His son (the result of the love of God), over evil (the result of independence or the absence of the love of God).
There is nothing greater than love.
God is love and God is good.
If He is good, then the ultimate act of his goodness would be to give man the opportunity to experience the greatest thing that exists -- love.
This everlasting love of His is expressed in his eternal Law and His willingness to give us the right to choose.
Some choose not to obey Him and inclusive change His Law and others may choose to go as far as to deny Him as is your case".

The professor bridles.
"As a philosophical scientist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or His Law or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's Law, which is His moral code, in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies, "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week!
Tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir, or are you placing your 'faith' in the unobservable?"

The professor makes a sucking noise with his teeth and gives the student a silent, stony stare.

The student replies: "May I follow up on the point you were making earlier to the other student?"

The professor wisely keeps silent.

"I believe you have a great mind Professor, but with all respect let me ask the class a question regarding it. Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelt the professor's mind?"

The class remains silent.

"No one appears to have done so. No one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. While I would not dare to imply it myself, but wouldn't the limitations of what you 'believe in' (the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable, protocol, science) say that you have no mind?
Wouldn't the same apply to your emotions and your will?
I believe your great mind is hidden within your brain although I cannot observe it within the small box, or within the limited parameters which you want to place God within.
If I want to know your mind or better yet the real you (your mind, emotions, will and even your spirit), all I have to do, if you are willing to be known, is be willing to seek to know you and to spend time with you, at least to read about you.
You can know that God exists, .......if you are willing. ......
Are you willing Professor?"

Silence

Silence

Silence

Silence

Silence

Silence

Silence

The bell rings.

"Class dismissed," replies the professor. "Time is up!"

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lmaoo...a good debate, don't you think?

Whilst both sides of this arguement are valid, it still boils down to one single thing:
One person's faith (belief) versus another person's denial.
I remain someone that is sceptical until conclusively proven otherwise...and if I'm totally honest - I crave the proof, which ever arguement it favours!
:)

Res...

lol very gud res! av read a lot of ur posts since i joined th other day... u'v got a deep mind n a huge vocabulary lol... keep it up i think im learnin a lot on here yano

lol...I relish the compliment, Stoned Scouser, and am humbled by your kind words :D

Yep, I guess that we're all here to learn - the day that we stop asking questions, is the day that we lose our spirit and soul...and become less than we are meant to be.

I have been admonished for my quest for answers many times - I just ask them why I should stop lmaooo

that was cool, Res...

anyway the way I see it is this; things happen

thats it. thats my view of history, society, thoughts, feelings, emotions, communications, relationships, good, evil - theyre just things happening..

why does there have to be a God for them to happen? why does it have to be more complicated?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

Tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

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Good god Res, don't bring evoution into this, or I'll go crazy!
:D

It has to be more complicated, GHoST, because us humans cannot accept that 'this is it'. We all seem to have this inate need to believe that our lives are somehow connected to a 'greater plan', or an 'unseen destiny'.
I doubt that there is anyone on this planet that doesn't think that we are subject to the machinations of some higher order - even the most devout agnostic.

I, myself, am someone who rejects all organised religion - I've explored most of the religions on this Earth, looking for something that catagorises my 'beliefs'; even Taoism and Buddism do not satisfy my quest, because they too seem to require that I must 'donate' or 'relinquish' part or all of my personal wealth, etc.
It is to that end that I reject organised religion, because at every turn, I see the hand of human greed at play.

I do not disrespect anybody's beliefs.
I do, however, often question why those people must be told how to follow their beliefs - often involving the parting of cash, or at the very least, a distain for anybody else that does not agree.

Personally, I find myself caught between a longing to believe in a higher power/order, and a resignation that 'this is it'.
I would, on the one hand, try to look at 'spiritual experiences' from a psychological view-point - then, entertain the idea that some 'divine influence' has caused those same experiences.

...I'll need to finish this train of thought later, as my kids keep interupting my thoughts...something about being hungry, or summat lol
I hope I made sense so far...:)
bless 'em, eh?

That was a cool debate... myself i don't beleive in God persay, but i do beleive in something like it. I beleive that "god"is the energy of the universe,... such as that god is everything, and everything is god, because after all... matter is only energy condensed to a slow vibration. and therefore god is omnipresent; it is a fact that energy cannot dissipate.

About the stuff of how to use all of your brain, i beleive that we may only conciously use up to like 25%... and the rest of the brain is accessed by using keys... The keys are everywhere... Pot is one, Shrooms are another... and the most fascinating and spiritually important one i have found is Salvia Divinorum.

I do beleive in evolution,its otherwise known as adaptation. but i dont think that i descended from monkeys... i'd say that humans, apes, chimps and baboons and such are distant cousins all having evolved in different locations and conditions from the same mother creature.

Oh and i beleive in the big bang theory... and to help u guys understand how it is possible... i offer an explanation.
God, or the energy, was spread out in an infinite area... now, every single particle of energy produces an attraction to the others(gravity). so, the energy all condensed into one small space, causing it to amplify and morph into heat and basic energy particles, this is the very first star.. In this incredible heat, theparticles fuse into the first atom... hydrogen, and then this is heated causing it to change to its next form, helium... and then the process keeps going, creating many elements and causing a rapid expansion of the energy until it's core has nothing more to burn, its energy condensed too far. The core becomes incredibly dense and the star collapses on itself, causing a massive explosion(hyper nova) and throwing the elemental dust across space. then the dust condenses in different areas, creating more, smaller stars and even planets. constantly changing and expanding, these new stars will later explode and continue the chain reaction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

Good god Res, don't bring evoution into this, or I'll go crazy!
:D

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Do you not subscribe to the 'theory of evolution', FLESH? :D
Let's go crazy :D

All I'll say is this: It is so, because I say it is....
Well, that's what Darwin said, and everyone seems to accept him, why not me?
lol

darwin was a dumbass in his theory, but i still think evolution is the only possible thing... oh fuck it... i dont care...

Like the bible says in genesis... thou shalt not eat of the fruit of knowledge... so just shut up, sit back, pack a big fat bong bowl and take it all for granted!

The Big Bang.
Yes, a very plausible theory...but, where did the intitial substances come from?
lol...it's enough to make your head explode!
I think there are sciences that we have yet to discover, let alone comprehend

Evolution.
How can a single cell organism divide - surely it is impossible?
Darwin had some very good ideas and theorums - however, we can only accept those theories if we accept that there is a missing link...show me the missing link, then I shall subscribe to his theories.
Personally, I find it very hard to believe.

Religious text.
As far as I am aware, none of the religious text speak of the dinosaurs - of which we have irrefutable proof of existence. Why?
Are those religious texts inferring that 'God' was only present after the dinosaurs and the 'new order'?
And yet, according to those texts, there was nothing before 'God'. :confused:
In any arguement that one puts forward to a devout follower (whatever faith), the resounding retort would be "..because the (insert book here) says it is so."
But, the book was written by Man!
Who's to say that the experiences 'witnessed' by the ones who wrote those words, weren't tripping out on mushrooms?
I mean, we ourselves, have had experiences with certain mind-altering drugs (shrooms, ecstacy, etc), but we are of a different level of intelligence to those people of the past - what we know as psychoactive reaction, they might have perceived as a 'sign from God'.

Maybe, the Bible (etc) are accounts of things that happened - but due to their lack of understanding that we 'enjoy' today, their interpretation of such events may be somewhat misguided.
Think about how early Man viewed things that they didn't understand.
Imagine if you could travel back in time, and show people of a Biblical time your PC...how do you think they would view you?
Even further back..imagine showing a caveman your gas lighter...surely, you would be regarded as some kind of God?

Imagine that the first intelligent man on this planet, actually started this whole thing off. What if that same person, had been the one to discover fire.
Let's be brutal about it - do you really think that that person would have gone to his fellow tribesmen and annouced his discovery, without a thought to his own personal gain? Maybe, he discovered fire, then thought - hang on, I could make a really good scam out of this. He could trick his fellow cavemen into thinking that he was a powerful person, that deserved to be honoured and worshipped - "bring me food and fur, and I will create fire for you!" The other cavemen would undoubtably be in awe of such a person, and would be eager to please him. That caveman could also take his scam further, and suggest that if they continue to support him with food, fur, and the odd vestril virgin, that he could secure them a place in the 'other-world', where food and fur would be plentiful - after all, he can already create fire....
Let's think about the vocabulary of such beings....what might be the name of this 'powerful' caveman?...would 'God', not be far from plausible.....?

Just an idea...and one that I suspect will be shot down in flames...:D
But, come on...argue me wrong..I'll be the first in line to apologise and accept any religion, if I am given conclusive proof of the existence of God.

At the end of the day, I can't take it all for granted - much as I would love to, believe me - and so, I continue to ask questions...and will until the day I die.

Res...

wow man ive hadf a quote malfunction.
single celled organisms divided because, as is ssaid in the greatest documentary on evolution, jurassic park, "nature will find a way"
lmao :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

Evolution.
How can a single cell organism divide - surely it is impossible?
Darwin had some very good ideas and theorums - however, we can only accept those theories if we accept that there is a missing link...show me the missing link, then I shall subscribe to his theories.
Personally, I find it very hard to believe.

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again nice vocabulary in ur article res, lol!

About the 'missing link'... did u see the programme about oliver the monkey/man? Really interestin but sad wot happened to him. U probably already know about him but heres a link (pardon th pun) 4 ya anyway http://robotics.stanford.edu/~oli/oliver.html... theres loadza stuff abar him on th net

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

Evolution.
How can a single cell organism divide - surely it is impossible?
Darwin had some very good ideas and theorums - however, we can only accept those theories if we accept that there is a missing link...show me the missing link, then I shall subscribe to his theories.
Personally, I find it very hard to believe.

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Personally, I cannot, under any circumstance, understand how anyone can deny it.

Exerpts from National Geographic:

Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamilia with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun and not vice-versa, offered by Compernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomimc theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observationand experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but an explanatory statement that fits the evidence. They embrace such an explanation confidently but provisionally--taking it as their best available view of reality, at least until some severely conflicting data or some better explanation might come along.

[...]

Orchids, wondrously adapted for controlling their pollination by insects, intrigued Darwin. The parts of their strangely modified flowers, he saw, correspond to the flower parts on simpler plants, suggesting evolutionary change. One species that caught his eye was the Madagascar orchid Angraecum sesquipedale, with its 11-inch-long nectar receptacle. He predicted that somewhere in Madagascar, a place he never visited, must live a moth with a proboscis 11 inches long, adapted to harvest the orchid's nectar. Forty years later two entomologists revealed the Madagascan sphinx moth Xanthopan morganii praedicta, confirming Darwin's forecast. Such mutual adaptation--the moth to the flower, the flower to the moth--is called coevolution.

[...]

Nightmarish illnesses caused by microbes include both the infectious sort (AIDS, Ebola, SARS) that spread directly from person to person and the sort (malaria, West Nile Fever) delivered to us by biting insects or other intermediaries. The capacity for quick change among disease-causing microbes is what makes them so dangerous to large numbers of people and so difficult and expensive to treat. They leap from wildlife or domestice animals into humans, adapting to new circumstances as they go. Their inherent variability allows them to find new ways of evading and defeating human immune systems. By natural selection, they acquire resistance to drugs that should kill them. They evolve. There's no better or more immediate evidence supporting the Darwinian theory than this process of forced transformation among our inimical germs.

Whew, that was long, hope you read it all :D!!

HowdyY'all,

I was wondering,if one of y'all believers in Evolution,can tell me why is it-that Life has an imperative to survive and adapt ?

I believe that 'imperative' ..is Divine...what say you ?

Have a good one...Torog

SO READIN ALL THIS SHIT R MOST U PEOPLE ATHEIST OR DO U JUST CALL URSELF RELIGIUOSE AND GO TO CHURCH TO BE ON "GODS GOOD SIDE" IF HE REALLY DOES EXSIST?MABY I SHOULD MAKE A POLL

Who says we imagine, mabe were just reactions to actions based off of genetic data.

I'm listening to Ace of base. I wish i had grown up in H.S when this music was about. You just cant compare 70's and 80's music, with nowadays.

Eminem - led zepplin, who wins?
Chad Cougar - Mc Jager. Who wins?
Tool - Pink floyd. Who wins, though tool does rock.
Alexis on fire - Iron maiden.

Common now.

The C

Remember Jesus words. I am "he" therefore "i am." (not exact qupte but the meaning)



It's fucking nuts, thats what were learnirng about now in the science community, laws are based around our dimension and they are because they haveto be, and it has to be evergoing because we are the consequnce. <-- this is me speaking now.

We havto be for the 4th dimension to make sense, were just a code of rules for there to be more advanced rules, as there needs to be a 2d for there to be the basic concepts for there to be 3D, but a person in 2d cannot comprehend what is in 3d. But he can understand all the rules of his dimension. And our string of dimensions are just one of the endless options. <-- mix of what i think and what i've heard/read.
We are so there can be a 4th dimension, and it cant end, it is because it has to be, because if there wasnt then thier wouldnt be a purpose, and there cant be nothing, because nothing is a concept, and if theres one concpet why not 10? or a billion.. +1

If this makes any sense let me know.

Ramblings of a stoner.

The C

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Torog

HowdyY'all,

I was wondering,if one of y'all believers in Evolution,can tell me why is it-that Life has an imperative to survive and adapt ?

I believe that 'imperative' ..is Divine...what say you ?

Have a good one...Torog

---

because the innocence of 'the garden" is nature, where the carnage and death of survival of the fittest is the most perfect harmony. life rolls on, its in the stones, the fossils tell us it is so. simple animal behaviour observations tell us its so.
nature is divine. it is gods great act. forget heaven and all the bits and pices in the bible, for me-it was finsished on the sixth day. its all i need to hear. yes god, youre a goddam genius, as i marvel on your creation the world (and still why, why god why, did you allow man to go evil, not heard of pre emptive salvation???aye???)

the perfect church is the earth, the congregation the cycle of matter and if you like, souls.
nature is divine. nature is god. it his his purest form, his most complex form, his most beautiful form, his most useful form.
praise him lets have a smoke.

why cant the big bang and evolution be part of gods creation? certainly evolution is a majestic thing. just because some guys 2000 years ago said "create" instead of "evolve" due to a wanting of scientific jargon and lack of a clue doesnt mean we should forever be bound to it?

what if jesus had walked past when someone was rabbitting on that the world was flat? would have made it a holy moment and therefore ultimate truth.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh.

i need to be alone.
with a tree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Torog

HowdyY'all,

I was wondering,if one of y'all believers in Evolution,can tell me why is it-that Life has an imperative to survive and adapt ?

I believe that 'imperative' ..is Divine...what say you ?

Have a good one...Torog

---

Every living organism has a survival instinct, that's one of the definitions of life itself. If any organism, even a single-cell being, does not have this instinct, we wouldn't be here today, nor would anything but rocks and volcanoes.

BTW, there's nothing in evolution theory that disproves God exists. The theory just states that God did not create all life as it is today some 3000-4000 years ago, but that life evolved over millions of years to reach a present state. The theory also does not dismiss that fact that if you have faith in God, you can always argue that he got the ball rolling, and that in itself is a beautiful concept if you ask me, and the ultimate expression of God's gift of free will. Agree or disagree? :D

Nice post, FLESH - and, yes, I did read it all lol

I may have not explained my view-point well enough (despite Scouser's well-received compliment lol), which is a somewhat wild notion of what I believe.
-I did see the documentary about Oliver, and found it to be very bizarre and interesting-

Darwin was (IMO) absolutely correct with his evoution theory......except, I believe he was wrong in thinking that we evolved from apes. I'll explain this later.

Torog - the need to survive and adapt is an intrical part of every living things' basic instinct. The human brain is made up of 4 main areas - the smallest area (situated deep inside, near to the base of the brain) is called the 'Primary'. This houses our 'natural response instructions' (fight or flight, etc) - or our 'animal instincts', if you prefer. It is from there, that we get our 'imperatives'. I'll explain later.

In answer to C.
You make a very valid point, C - we are bound by the rules of our perception; laws of physics, for example. We in the 3rd dimension, can only hypothesise about the 4th dimension (and beyond), because we can only think in human terms - therefore, as soon as we start bending the rules, our findings become nothing more than conjecture and ideology. No need to explain this further (but may come back to it later ;) )

Imotep, you seem to think roughly along the same lines as I do, judging by your post.
I too, regard this Earth and all it's diverse inhabitants, both plant and animal, with a sense of awe. I feel it everytime I witness a beautiful sunset. I see it when I marvel at the interconnectivity and partnership that makes this planet work. I know it, when I consider the overall fragility of this self-sufficent rock, we call Earth. It truly is a magnificent creation.
You ask God "why did you allow man to go evil?" - there is a reason for this, I believe...and I'll explain it later lol

I was hoping that I could put my ideas in a txt.doc, but unfortunately I can't...so, that means I'm gonna clog the thread a bit...sorry :o

THE EXPLAINATION (woohoo :D )
*this may get a bit disjointed at times, sorry :o*
Firstly, we need to stop thinking in human terms. Forget about your immediate perception of this dimension, and the laws that govern it. In other words, the laws of physics only apply to us humans, but we are trying to address the existence of something (someone) that is beyond human. Try to look at humans and the Earth as someone would veiw something that they have made - quite simply, imagine that you were God.
Due to the results of 'natural selection', we can assume that humans are the subject matter, and that the Earth was made with a view to sustaining that life-form.

We'll ignore the presence of the universe for now, and accept that it is the required environment to create Earth in (so Earth becomes like a molecule within a saline solution in scale).

So, we've created Earth and it seems like, after many previous failed attempts, we have finally got it right - life begins to flourish.
However, after a while we discover that our chosen vessel for advancement (the ape), isn't evolving quite as well as we had thought. We decide to take a selection away from the environment, so that we can genetically modify them to accelerate their mutation, and reintroduce them once the modification had taken place.
This might go some way to explain the 'missing link' conundrum.
I mean, apes and monkeys of today, may well still be going through the original genetic programming that was meant for us. We can already see how monkeys learn like us, and reflect many of our tribal traits and 'humanistic qualities'. There is much evidence to suggest our relation to the ape, but for the ommision of a crucial element in the DNA structure - what if that missing element was that which was modified by the creator?
It might also explain why our evolution has been accelerating, both in a physical and mental sense.

The reason that it is hard for us to accept this idea, is due to our perception of reality and understanding of dimension. Yet there are some people who believe in God, who is surely of another dimension by definition alone.

If we are to believe that God created Man in the image of Himself, then we must stop referring to that 'image' as being visual; if it were so, then there would only be male (or female, of course lol). Therefore, we can assume that the 'image' is more to do with our base instincts, than our physical appearence.
We now enter into the philosophies of Yin and Yang - the battle of good vs evil, of which there can be no victor, because it would upset the very mechanism that drives nature and helps it to survive.
We all have the capacity to carry out terrible acts of evilness - some succumb to those primeval urges, and some do not. From every act of terror, to every natural disaster that has happened, or will happen, will come something equally as benefical. And with each lesson learned, we take another step towards our ultimate conclusion - thus evolving in mind and spirit.
This is why God 'allowed' Man "to go evil", Imotep, it is an (unfortunately) necessary part of our evolutionary process.

Torog believes that our 'imperatives' are divine - maybe he's not so far from the truth.
We are all subject to a genetic code - the instructions that build us into the thing that we are. That same code must contain the instructions that control our thought patterns.
That we are individual, cannot be denied (finger prints alone, prove it), however, we all have the same basic instincts; greed, selfishness, caring, compassion, etc. But the thing that seems to set us apart from every other living thing on this planet, is that 'survial of the fittest' applies to our own species as well.
In my opinion, religion has bastardised the belief in God, some people turned that belief into a money making power tool, to control the opinions of the masses toward their own political and egoistical gain.
That said, I do not blame those who follow religion - I just think that they are the victim of someone else's power trip.
I do not wish to offend, and would offer in my defense that I respect those peoples beliefs in God, but question the religious context that those beliefs reflect.
Just my honest opinion :)

I believe that there is a 'higher being', I would name that entity God, because that is the universally accepted name of such a thing. God exists in a dimension that we cannot yet comprehend, and we are subject to his quest.
To the question, "why are we here?", the answer could be as simple as, "what happens if?"
Or, even more simply - "yes, or no?"
We can apply this basic question to every aspect of our lives, and on every scale of importance; from "do I want a cup of tea?", to "shall I invent the atom bomb?"
Every single decision that we make, however small, has a repercussional effect upon the whole. It is the fundamentally basic law of physics that binds our very existence - action vs reaction. If we accpet that 'causality' exists, then we must now look at the whole, rather than the one.

What it the mission of the whole?

I wonder at the thing that we are meant to ultimately achieve.
Are we meant to achieve the ability to replicate ourselves - ie, cloning, or AI?
Are we meant to learn how to manipulte the environment of our own planet, or indeed, otherworlds?
Or is it just a case of producing the ultimate virus?

I hope I haven't offended any one, but these are my honest opinions. However, as with all theories and ideas, I remain open to proof of the contrary.

Life and let live, that's what I say. We're all in this together, like it or not, why don't we all strive to find a way to make this experience as uplifting and pleasurable as possible?
Just my thoughts :)

Res...

Right on, Res

Although I disagree with some of your suggestions, I have to agree with your parting phrase - "Life and let live, that's what I say. We're all in this together, like it or not, why don't we all strive to find a way to make this experience as uplifting and pleasurable as possible?"

I'm an Atheist. Maybe, after some deep soul-searching, one day I might progress (or regress, even lol) to an Agnostic, but for now I don't believe there is a God for my own reasons.

But the point that I want to get across is this; It Doesn't Really Matter!!... Whether God exists or not, it won't really affect our lives.. It won't really make our decisions any easier to make, or our troubles any easier to overcome.. the idea that believing in God will some how manke your life simpler is an illusion, or maybe its a fantasy.. But believing in God[s] does cause tension and anomosity between family, friends, cities, countries... what's it all for? For something we can neevr prove? That seems like a stupid reason to hate your fellow man.. Maybe we should all just give up the quest for God and begin the search for Peace? Maybe then we can all start living together instead of just tolerating (barely) eachother?? It would make a change..

these pretzels are makin me thirsty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Imotep

these pretzels are makin me thirsty.

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LOL!!

great post Res, you're a good writer :D

I can't help but agree with most of what you've said, but I don't think we're here for a specific reason. I've pondered this question many times, "What's the fucking point?" and unfortunately I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer. This leads me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that there really isn't any point. I don't believe in destiny, but I believe each person has a certain potential they may or may not achieve. If there were some cosmic, greater reason for our existence, then Free Will goes in trash can, and I cannot accept that.

I envy people who have a great faith in whatever they choose, because they can comfort themselves in believing that there is a point, there is an ultimate goal. I can't see that, nor am I really able to believe in most religions. Is there a god? Maybe, if there is I think he just got the ball rolling and now he's sitting back and enjoying the show.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Imotep

these pretzels are makin me thirsty.

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LOL!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

The Big Bang.
Yes, a very plausible theory...but, where did the intitial substances come from?
lol...it's enough to make your head explode!
I think there are sciences that we have yet to discover, let alone comprehend

Res...

---

It is a scientifically proven tht energy can neither grow or die, but it does change shape... therefore it is, will always be, and has always been.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

I can't help but agree with most of what you've said, but I don't think we're here for a specific reason. I've pondered this question many times, "What's the fucking point?" and unfortunately I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer.

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(This may be because you're (we are) thinking in human terms.
I ask myself that very question each and every day; from the moment that I wake up (and realise that I haven't died in my sleep:mad: ) to the moment that I close my eyes at night (hoping that it will be the last time:rolleyes: ). I cannot find the answer either, and often arrive at the same conclusion as you do :o

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

I don't believe in destiny, but I believe each person has a certain potential they may or may not achieve.

---

Interestingly, I feel the same, but had previously struggled to 'define' that feeling - you've just provided one...thanks:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

If there were some cosmic, greater reason for our existence, then Free Will goes in trash can, and I cannot accept that.

---

This is the part where our shared thinking may part company :) lol
I don't believe that we do have ultimate free-will.
Sure, we can choose what clothes we're going to wear, or whether we want to drink tea...but, outside of those very basic choices, what choice do we really have?
In the society that we are raised (in our case, the western world), certain aspirations and targets are required of us. From the moment that we are born, parameters regarding behaviour, acceptablity, and even our thought-processes, are imprinted on our general psyche.
To explain:
There are two couples of the extreme opposite to the other; ie, couple A might be conservative, affluent, and of high social standing - whereas, couple B are violent, loud, and in poverty.
They each bourne a child, but the children are swopped between the two couples, and are brought up by them.
Neither couple knows of the others' existence, and have no idea that their child is not their kin.
Would you not agree, that the child raised by couple A, would most likely have a very different outlook on life to the child raised by B - even though, genetically speaking, it should not be so?
If we assume that I am right, then we can already see how our indivuality is somewhat tainted - before we can even begin to discover who we are, we are being told who we are.
We, in the western world, are constantly bombarded with advertisements and propoganda; we are being told what to wear, what to eat, how to look, and how to think. If we aren't seen in the lastest fashion, or sporting the niftiest phone, we feel that we have failed in some way.
So, our choices become very limited indeed - do I quit this ridiculous 'dog-eat-dog' society and go live on a desert island, or do I stay here and 'do my best to keep up'?
When you really think about it (and I have done so on many an occasion), could you really do it? I mean, is solitude, with none of the technology that we have grown accustomed to, something that would make you happy?
I think not :(
We have no choice...

BUT!!!
Underneath all of this NLP, lurks something that noone can manipulate - it's deep inside, and is the very nature of our being.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please allow me to introduce to you....your HUMAN SPIRIT!!! :D
This is the only real place where you have control of 'choice'...it is the thing that will set us apart from each other, and contains our moral code.

A senario:
I'm walking down the road, one night, and happen across a badly beaten man, in need of immediate medical attention.
I recognise this man to be my former best mate...who had shagged my wife...and was responsible for years of mental anguish, and the eventual break-up of my marriage. I have fantasied at what I have wished to do to him, and I guarrantee you, I have got a vivid imagination and somewhat twisted sense of humour.
So, I apparently have a choice.
I can, either
A - stand there and chuckle as I watch him die, or
B - call an ambulance, and do the necessary motions of keeping the bastard alive...

Thank you for the compliment, F L E S H, I sometimes wonder if I try to 'over-explain' stuff :rolleyes: (see above, init lmaoo)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

I envy people who have a great faith in whatever they choose, because they can comfort themselves in believing that there is a point, there is an ultimate goal.

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I understand exactly what you mean :)

I like this thread, dudes...I think we're all keeping it nice and respectful, like.
Nothing wrong with a good debate, especially when there are such variations in ideas - all of which are valid.
Well, until conclusively proven otherwise, eh? ;);p

Res...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

There are two couples of the extreme opposite to the other; ie, couple A might be conservative, affluent, and of high social standing - whereas, couple B are violent, loud, and in poverty.
They each bourne a child, but the children are swopped between the two couples, and are brought up by them.
Neither couple knows of the others' existence, and have no idea that their child is not their kin.
Would you not agree, that the child raised by couple A, would most likely have a very different outlook on life to the child raised by B - even though, genetically speaking, it should not be so?

---

They might have a different outlook on life, certainly, but their potential remains somewhat the same. Whether they achieve it or not depends on many things, among others how their parents brought them up.

I know some people who were born to rich affluent parents, yet they amounted to absolutely nothing, squandering all their inheritance and becoming bums after their parents die.

I also know some people who were born to poor, yet hard-working people. They grew up with lots of ambition, in part because they don't want their own children to have it as hard as they did. They work, sometimes 2 jobs, just to be able to go to University, and when they managto get their degree, their life changes and they become the affluent parents of the first example.

Potential achieved, potential wasted, it depends on you. There's part of that decision that is explained by the personality and the upbringing of the person, then there's choice. Ultimately, no matter what the circumstances, the choice is ours.

Keep it going, I'm discovering stuff about myself just writing this down :eek:

:D

this is sum deep shit!! woah :eek:

who ever thought that stoners could be so ummmmmmm whats the word im lookin for :rolleyes:

deep?



:D

stoned?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

They might have a different outlook on life, certainly, but their potential remains somewhat the same. Whether they achieve it or not depends on many things, among others how their parents brought them up.

---

Exactly my point.
And it demonstrates the difference between 'in-built' (genetic) potential and 'socio-schematic' (environment) potential. In other words, genetic ability vs the awareness of that ability.
The child raised by couple B, may quite possibly have the genetic ability (inherited from its parents of couple A), but may never recognise that potential because of the restrictions placed upon them by their socio-schematic ideals.
If the child had been raised by its natural parents, then we might assume that the genetic potential would have been nurtured and allowed to progress; it is expected of them.
Of course, as you pointed out in your examples, FLESH, that isn't always the case...which brings me, quite nicely, back to my point about our lack of ultimate choice.

In the Matrix (Reloaded), there was a discussion between Neo and the Counsellor, about the thing that sets us apart from machines. Neo suggested that we have choice, and therefore ultimate power and control over the machines. The Counsellor, however, pointed out that if we excersised that power, then the ramifications could be disasterous (ie, in the discussed case of shutting down the life-support mechanism). He showed that, whilst we 'think' we have choice, in fact, we do not.

We don't have ultimate choice.
However, we do (some of us) have the gift of 'independent thought'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F L E S H

I also know some people who were born to poor, yet hard-working people. They grew up with lots of ambition, in part because they don't want their own children to have it as hard as they did. They work, sometimes 2 jobs, just to be able to go to University, and when they managto get their degree, their life changes and they become the affluent parents of the first example.

---

This is very true - and we can see examples of this in every walk of life.
The 'choice' to break free from the comfort zone that we find ourselves in, is one that we can all make. Some, like the ones that you describe, have the courage to persue their ambitions - others prefer to accept their position in life (no matter how unsatisfactory that existence is), because the mere thought of change scares the shit out of them.
Using your example, the child has gained independent thought, and can no longer accept the situation that they are in - believing that they 'deserve better than this'. In gaining their independent thought, they discover a potential within them and strive to acheive it.
They now have a choice; do I accept my situation, or do I change it?
It is probably the biggest choice that we have - but it still only pertains to the individual, and is relatively small, in comparison to the whole.

If we accept that independent thought allows us to change our lives, regardless of our socio-schematic situation and genetic potential, then we must now question where that ability comes from.
For example, I come from a background that doesn't subscribe to such things as religion and philosophy, and yet, here I am discussing those very subjects. There is obviously something deep inside me that causes me to question my existence, and the dimension in which I reside. Where has that come from?
Why can't I accept that 'this is it'?
Furthermore, why do I reject the answers placed before me (ie, religion), and yet entertain the idea of a 'divine influence'?
Is my psyche driven by a protocol which controls my deepest thought patterns, and if so, to what ends am I being steered towards?

If we look at Man's acheivements over the years, what is the fundamental question that has been responsible for those acheivements?

"What happens if...?"

And, who is asking the question?
Is it just our human curiousity?

Certainly, if we view life from our own perspective, then we can say that we are merely satisfiying our own humanistic appetite for knowledge - but we are just the inhabitants of one small planet within a universe that we cannot even begin to measure the size of...surely we can't be so ignorant that we think that we are the only intelligent beings around.
And given that ideology, we must also accept that ours is not the only dimension that exists.

Your thought so far?
:D
Res...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RESiNATE

If we accept that independent thought allows us to change our lives, regardless of our socio-schematic situation and genetic potential, then we must now question where that ability comes from.
For example, I come from a background that doesn't subscribe to such things as religion and philosophy, and yet, here I am discussing those very subjects. There is obviously something deep inside me that causes me to question my existence, and the dimension in which I reside. Where has that come from?
Why can't I accept that 'this is it'?
Furthermore, why do I reject the answers placed before me (ie, religion), and yet entertain the idea of a 'divine influence'?
Is my psyche driven by a protocol which controls my deepest thought patterns, and if so, to what ends am I being steered towards?

---

Easy... because we're stoners.... :eek:

lol, just kidding :D

I think people usually require a spark to start to think about these things. Something like a traumatic event, death, illness, problems at home, etc. If everyone was just happy and everything's going good, people don't tend to concern themselves with 'the Meaning' or 'God' or other such things.

I had a disease this past year, and I'm not even sure it's completely gone yet. I think about death (maybe I'm overreacting a bit, but meh...) and what could happen, I think about what it all means, and 99.9% of the time I get so frustrated because there is no point. Why do I, an otherwise healthy 24-year-old, have to contract this disease? Why is my life in danger when I've done nothing to deserve something like this?

I don't know, and I guess that's why I like weed :D It helps to ease the anxiety, or stress, that comes about by thinking too much.

Heh, one thing's for sure, this discussion has evolved quite a bit, and just by typing out my thoughts, I learned a bit about myself, and what I couldn't figure out on my own, RES put into words for me. So cheers RES, and the others who wrote something down! Yay!