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to me weed can be spiritual and heres why...
because it will allow me to see things from a different angle that I cant see when I am sober. just like tripping but less intense
now when you first did acid did you do it for spiritual reasons??? I highly doubt it. but after doing it you realized reality can be a little more than you realized if looked at in a different frame of mind.
Dex, you are reading poeple's statements, and you are completely warping them into what you want them to say, so that you can in turn argue with them about it. You are also doing it in a mean and disrespectful fashion.
Grow up man.
I love to feeling the out of bodies the trippiness
"Dex, you are reading poeple's statements, and you are completely warping them into what you want them to say, so that you can in turn argue with them about it. You are also doing it in a mean and disrespectful fashion.
Grow up man."
If you don't have anything nice to say...
Legallyblind, I guess you're just pissed because I'm making you think?
You are wasting your time if you aren??t learning something ?? that is my philosophy. I think that getting high entails taking psychedelics for granted which is what I am opposed to.
When I say I a realist I mean that, while I can understand your point, the ??equanimity not to be disturbed or frustrated when someone contradicts [you]? doesn??t work in the real world. Theoretically, if we all smoked a lot of dope and felt as passive as you seem to then ??we??d all just get along.? That isn??t the case. If I chose to exercise my Zen here and just let everyone say what they wanted without raising relevant issues and pointing out inconsistencies, I would effectively be inhibiting others learning. My intention is to force everyone to think about their preconceptions.
well if you think you found drugs due to spiritual reason I think your full of crap. your friends prolly said "hey ya wanna trip??" and you said "whats that???" but then you saw it had spiritual value.
so tell me, what kind of spiritual value do you get from it exactly??
do you find god????
also do you think other people will say get a tab of lsd at church???
shit no
the true nature of the experience has been suppressed for the most part
they made it look like dirty hippies just doing drugs and looking at the stars and saying "wow man the sky is falling"
what?
That's exactly what I am trying to do with you, watch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextromethorphan
What about helping, rather than forcing? That is the essential wisdom taught by the Tao teh Ching, that the problem with the mind is that we get in our own way and try to force things into accord with our preconceptions of how they should be. Rather than getting in someone's face, it's possible to compassionately guide them in the right direction. Perhaps difficult at first, but with every person there IS a way if you can gain their trust. People naturally have inclinations to be spiritual and to learn about themselves, but they inhibit themselves out of fear. They need to "get out of their own way." If you stand in their way also, it just makes it doubly hard, and confusing and difficult, for them to learn: when they feel irreconcilable tensions between different ways of thinking. You DO need to raise issues that will help them to learn, but this is a matter of helping them to get out of their own way, not trying to trip them up to show them how "wrong" they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextromethorphan
There is a difference between being passive and not being aggressive. That middle way is part of my spirituality. There is a REASON that Zen emphasizes compassion so much, and it needs to be practiced in every aspect of our day-to-day lives. Practically everything I post on these issues is aimed at helping people to sort things out in one way or another, and that is far from being passive. You and I just have a difference of emphasis or attitude in doing this, but it is a relevant difference. When's the last time you taught someone a meaningful lesson by arguing the hell out of them and getting them to submit, arguing them down until they gave up and said they don't want to talk about it anymore (which is more likely than admitting they were wrong)? The interpersonal tensions of arguments already provide a stubborn emotional inhibition to true learning for most people; as I said before, learning is collaborative. It really is. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, because I've seen it and experienced both ways. Take the current situation: if you see yourself as being in an argument with me, you're just not going to fully get what I'm saying. And I wouldn't blame you, because emotions are just as much a part of comprehension as logic is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextromethorphan
If we don't "all just get along" yet in the "real world," it is because people who are on the verge of KNOWING how to get along with everybody (like you) don't practice their beliefs fully. If spiritual insights don't apply to every aspect of life and the "real world," then how can they count for anything? Are they just for private, personal enlightenment? I hate to dissappoint you but there's no such thing: enlightenment is a state of reality, not a state of mind. It's just the way things are naturally in the universe, and not something that can be attained by an individual; individuals can attune themselves to the way of things, but only by seeing how we are the same as everyone else and acting out of compassion for that fact. This is only one way of expressing the dharma, but it means the same thing as any other expression.
I think that you have compassion, but you need to acquire skillful means. That is, looking deeply into each situation to understand what is called for in the particular instance, rather than following a formula established by ideas you've had in the past. Even on a forum, this applies. Every post should be different; your every assertion must not necessarily be consistent with the last one, but only with what the person needs to hear to help them overcome personal barriers.
Well, it works for me in MY real world, which is the same as yours. I think it would work for you too if only you'd give it a try. But most people are afraid to give it a try. The most difficult thing about spiritual wisdom is realizing that it CAN be applied to "real life," social situations, and getting over the delusion that once you enter the social realm of things, the rules are different and that you have to have a different mindset to go along with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextromethorphan
As I said earlier, I don't think you and I are that different on this. It is the structure of "argument" itself that causes the appearance that we are pitted against each other on opposite "sides." In reality, there aren't any sides at all.
What a great thread this is! It isn??t very often that we get into as big of a debate as we have on this one. I say debate because that is what we are doing ?? not arguing. We??ve wandered way off topic now. I??ve been trying to keep this about the different motivations for drug use and their validity, but I??m happy to go down this road.
So you think that by relating my thoughts in a relatively aggressive way I am stopping people from seeing my message? I can buy that, though I didn??t actually think I was being aggressive. The message is the same but the method is different.
I still think I need to press the issue further though:
I believe in community. I believe that a small group of people working in harmony is a great and natural idea. In theory, if everyone did their part and didn??t slack off ever, if no one ever took a second serving of bread this would work. Unfortunately, man is naturally inclined to preserve himself and get ahead, and this always foils the plot and makes large-scale versions of communism fail.
I think that it would be great if everyone took time to explore themselves, come to terms with what they are, and seek spiritual illumination, but I??m not going to fool myself into believe that this will happen. The same principles apply here as they do in communism. It??s a damn shame, but it is what it is. What you??re saying, I think, is that people will figure it out by themselves when they are ready, and that pushing the point won??t help. Why not push the point? Can it really hurt? Emotions aside, I think you can see what I??m trying to say. If you can look at what I??ve written with a level head, understand it and take something from it I??ve done what I intended.
maybe for people to use hallucinogens the way you would want is for people to not see it as just a drug. but for now thats what it is classified as and thats how people will try it. to them even after trying it they wont really see the spiritual connection because they dont know what that is in the first place because they were force fed what they learned in church and nothing else. but nonetheless they will have a spiritual experience from it whether they realize it or not.
do you see what I am trying to say??
I like the going "crazy" for a period of time, it helps me to appriciate sobriety, but I need a refresher every once in a while.
That is an interesting angle, harmonicminor.
Dex there you go again taking someones statement and warping it into what you want it to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextromethorphan
NOT ONCE did I ever say or imply that I was angry because you were forcing me to think. That is as far from the truth as it gets. All you are doing is causing trouble for the sake of it.
I haven't warped anything.
Its also human nature to want to expiriance alterd states of reality. Like little kids who spin around and it feels good as your doing it, then like 40secs after you stop you feel like utter-shit, but the next day their doing it again. Its just human nature. I wonder if other animals like dogs ever want to get high?
cats do :-)
catnip for all
Why do them...hmmm
Well, cuz compared to other drugs they make you feel like you got the most bang for your buck. Why do people drink? To feel good and enjoy the carefree feelings that come with being fucked up. Same shit goes for psychs. Another reason? Unlike other types of drugs, with psychs every trip is completely different depending on a whole bunch of factors such as environment, mood, company, etc and so the shit never really gets boring. I hear lots of talk about spiritual growth, but seriously ask yourself something...what the hell can a person who can't even trust his own eyes because he's tripping possibly be learning. Are you guys sure that you don't just "think" or "feel" like your growing spiritually. What exactly does growing spiritually mean to each one in his own right anyway? I'm not saying it's not possible to grow spiritually but the whole things is spoken of in a misunderstanding way. Has anyone ever defined what it meant to grow spiritually from a drug? No. So instead of saying the most vague phrase in the drug world "I do it for spiritual growth" how about you guys describe just what the hell the spiritual growth your talking about is. I mean seriously, I hear that phrase and I wonder, "Spiritual as in what?" For some it can be in a religious sense, others for voodoo, others for whichcraft, others for life appreciation, others for realization of thy self, others for finding the answer to a problem in their life, others for confidence building, etc. So, anyone who thinks they're all high and mighty and wants to act like an ass who "seems to know what they're talking about" should just sit in a corner and repeat the words "I'm a loser" untill they can realize that they're really no fuckin genius and that if they were so smart they'd actually explain what the spiritual growth is for them instead of just using the vague words, "spiritual growth" ok.
??what the hell can a person who can't even trust his own eyes because he's tripping possibly be learning?
It is thought by some that the abnormal reality one experiences on psychoactive drugs aren??t really hallucinations at all, but rather things that are actually there but not detectable because of dampeners on our sensors which psychedelic drugs suppress. Even if this is not true, who??s to say whether this existence isn??t all just one big hallucination? I trust my abnormally stimulated brain when I??m on drugs, just not to drive.
I??ll give you an explanation of what psychoactive drugs do for me specifically in a while ?? I need time to formulate my words.
I made the mistake of driving while tripping H A R D and I barely made it through a busy 5 o'clock traffic. Never again though.
lol say what you gotta say man no need to spell check and proof read a novel.
Type from the heart ... lol.
some people under lab conditions have demonstrated telekinesis
I myself visit the other side and meet beings while using Salvia :-)
I also write songs while tripping because for some reason different music pops in my head that I normally wouldn't think of sober
C'mon man I think you know what is wrong with this logic. It's the same old "natural vs. artificial" debate again, and we all know that it becomes clear that everything in the universe is ultimately a natural thing. In the same way, there is no such thing as a "self deception" where you "just think" something is happening where in actuality you're wrong about it. What would it mean to be wrong about anything? There is just what you experience, which is a natural thing, self-sufficient for its own validity. Obviously there is no objective test to see whether someone is having a spiritual experience, but that's because there is no line to draw between spiritual and non-spiritual. It's all the same stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus07083
As you point out, everyone has a different conception of what it means to grow spiritually, but that's only because everyone grows spiritually in their own unique, undpredictable, and individual way. There is probably no experience that doesn't cause us to grow in some way. We don't go backwards in life and we don't stand still either. Every moment is growth, and the reason we all have different expressions for it is simply what you said: every trip is different because of a variety of factors. So of course we are going to have different conceptions of what spiritual growth is for us individually, and some of us might not call it that at all.
As harmonicminor said, some people don't associate the word 'spiritual' with the kind of experiences we get on psychedelics. But we pretty much universally can't help but become ourselves, and feel love and sympathy for others, and feel happy and free. Those feelings take root in each of the individual situations we find ourselves in, and so there is always a different way of describing them. There is always a new way of saying it, which is how it should be. Just use what is right in front of you, because that is what exists.
I agree that the word 'spiritual' is vague. That is only because we are TRYING to define it, to pin it down, to give it an essence and talk about it in abstract terms. But it's never abstract; reality is made up of embodied experiences in the real world--it's not made up of words. There is a particular thing going on at each moment, and that's what spiritual growth is.
There is a lot of truth to the saying "whatever doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger." Whether you realize it or not, you are learning from everything that happens to you. And that is true no matter HOW you've been taught to regard psychedelics, or how to regard life.
and I banged a chick for 6 hours straight once :-)
now if that isnt spiritual I dont know whats is lol lmao :-)
Panza,
you are one smart dude :-)
When I said that I needed time to formulate my words I meant that I have shit to do right now and I don't want to think very hard. I'll post that bit tomorrow. :)
lol makin ya think huh Dex???
just copy and paste the text from your other thread bro
it was an exellent report :-)
haha, you got me there. Thanks about the report. I'm glad to see spirits are up and tension has cooled a bit.
where's the report, I'd like to read it :)
it is pretty interesting.
they always are though.
http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=66473
Point blank...I just wish people would stop using the vague words "Spiritual growth" because it gives no meaning to anyone but the person who is saying it because nobody but that person can really know what spiritual growth is being talked about...it's just a waste of time to mention those words in general
Ex. Someone tripped and realized that their life was actually a good one. They then say that drug A has spiritual growth. That's all good, but nobody is going to know what the fuck your talking about. So, would it be that hard to instead just say, "Drug A makes me realize that life is good" ????? :confused:
I mean come on...I think we're all intelligent enough to explain things instead of acting like little kids and using meaningless words that are confusing...think about why your posting in the first place...to SHARE KNOWLEDGE and using vague words don't help anyone get a better understanding of anything
Okay so just becuase something is difficult to talk about in ANY words, means we shouldn't try to share it with each other?
What words are NOT vague? None. No words have static, determinate meanings. That is why creative, poetic language is better than trying to be technical and precise--because you recognize each word for what it is: provisional, having only a momentary meaning for the specific individuals at hand, that is contained as much in sound and gesture and personal history as it is in the WORDS.
I'm not disagreeing that I will have no clear idea what you're talking about if all you say to me is "LSD gives me spiritual growth." But say I know you a little bit, I have read a lot of your posts and I know what kind of person you are. Then I already have a better idea of your personal spirituality which colors the phrase for me. It won't be the same as if someone else had said the same thing, whom I know to have a very different personality. You COULD be more specific, and that would probably be better, but the phrase is not totally meaningless if I know the context in which you're saying it.
True...and to all, I'm not trying to come off as an ass or anything for anyone thinking that i'm riding the high horse :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trichocereus Panza
hey as long as the horse is high off pot or tripping its ok :-)
lol, yeah... now THAT'S the right kind of high horse
Originally, I was simply curious...:D then, when I didn't die or meet God, I figured I'd better trip some more to find out what it's all about...
now-a-days when I trip I'm looking for insights and enlightenment but I still enojoy the trails and melting objects and so on and so forth.:D