Fems and Hermies (changed title from 'feminize your own seeds')

is it possible to make a hermie outdoors in the wild?

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Originally Posted by SouthernGuerilla

is it possible to make a hermie outdoors in the wild?

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Hell yes! It's called bagging, I believe the best way to do this is with a large bag placed over the plant, then remove and replace the bag every day at different times,:stoned:

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Originally Posted by a420seeker

Hell yes! It's called bagging, I believe the best way to do this is with a large bag placed over the plant, then remove and replace the bag every day at different times,:stoned:

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I can do this once the plant(s) have preflowers?

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Originally Posted by SouthernGuerilla

I can do this once the plant(s) have preflowers?

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Let the buds develope for 4 to 6 weeks and then do it that way most of the energy will be in producing the buds then bag em and it should Hermy for you with still a good bud yield and Feminized seed

I don't know a lot about the specifics for cannabis, but there seems to be some confusion among people about the process of passing along sex characteristics in general. It is simple genetics when you force a plant to hermaphrodize (is that a word?) that will give you female offspring.

First, as stinky said, a natural hermaphrodite should not be reproduced because that is a genetic flaw. The plant's genes have a defect giving it a XXY chromosome. It will potentially pass this along to nearly all of its young (I think the chance would only be 1 in 4 that it might not pass along the genetic defect since it is breeding with itself, and it might be 0% that it will not pass it on, I'd have to look more at the specifics of these plants because it depends on HOW it divides its sex chromosomes). So, if you get a hermaphrodite plant under idea growing conditions, what that plant is is a genetically defective freak and it needs to be prevented from cross-pollinating your other plants, and the seeds would most likely be more hermies. You might be able to pull the male plant parts off regularly to reduce seeding and make worthwhile buds for use, but any seeds should be discarded or you will just get more of the same.

Genetic freaks aside, a female has XX chromosomes and a male has XY chromosomes. When you breed, the odds of getting males to females (genetically) is 50/50:

X1X2+X1Y1

Results in these possible combinations in the offspring (colour coded to clarify) taking half the genetic material each from the mother and the father:

X1X1 X1Y1 X2X1 X2Y1

In other words, 50% male and 50% female. In most species, plant and animal, males are slightly less strong genetically resulting in a slightly lower survival rate (all to do with dominant and recessive genes and a more detailed explanation is beyond the intended purpose of this message). Females being homogametic, in other words having two identical XX chromosomes, have 2 shots at overcoming flaws where their heterogametic (XY) male counterparts have only 1, where faulty genes don't have an exact corresponding "countering" gene on the other half of their sex chromosome pair. When you introduce substances, be they hormones or aspirin or something else, you are effectively weakening the already slightly less robust male genetic material (Y chromosomes) and trying to approach a survival rate of 0% for sperm (in this case in the form of pollen) that carries a Y. Obviously, this could (and probably does in most cases) also kill off weaker sperm with X chromosomes and could ALSO introduce flaws in the genes if harm is done to the female sperm that do survive - especially if extremely strong hormones are used.

When a genetically female plant is forced by a threat to its survival to turn into a hermaphrodite, it is not a true hermaphrodite genetically. It is STILL a female plant. Obviously, the fact that it has the ability to produce sperm under extreme circumstances is also a genetic trait it carries, but this is actually not a bad thing as ultimately this could be a trait that could win out in a survival of the fittest scenario in the wild. The sperm/pollen produced by the plant cannot carry anything but the genetic material of that plant itself. Since the plant is female, it does not have a Y chromosome to pass along to the eggs to produce male plants and in complete isolation the seeds cannot be anything BUT female seeds, as shown below:

X1X2+X1X2

Results in these possible combinations in the offspring (colour coded to clarify) taking each half of the genetic material for each seed from only the mother:

X1X1 X1X2 X2X1 X2X2

There are no Ys to be had to specify male characteristics. However, there IS the trait that the plant will produce pollen and self-fertilize under stress that will be passed along in an absolute MINIMUM of 50% of the seeds, depending on which part of the cannabis DNA carries that trait. In theory, if you had several females that were stressed and produced pollen and they cross fertilized, you could be actually breeding plants with an increased likelyhood of stress hermaphrodism by having this trait carried on both halves of the genetic material which is joined to make a seed. That's really only a problem if you continue to subject your future generations of plants to stress, and the only real problem for the grower is that they are going to get more seeds and less sensimilla flowers.

Ugh... well, I am sure this is a clear as mud now, but I don't know how to simplify it any more. Just remember that sex cells - eggs and sperm - are haploid cells made of half the plant's own genetic material and therefore can only have in them whatever the plant has for DNA. Join the haploid egg and sperm together and you get a diploid cell which hopefully results in a viable offspring carrying half of each parent's DNA. One parent, or asexual reproduction, means that the offspring can only contain the DNA of that single parent (although potentially in slightly different arrangements as shown above).

It is pretty ridiculous for anyone to suggest you are somehow weakening the plants to do any of this, except perhaps if you go overboard on screwing with hormones and actually do genetic damage. Using aspirin or whatever is technically simply culling male-chromosome carrying sperm and realistically means you are ensuring only the strongest sperm survive, which usually is a positive thing. Forcing plants to self-pollinate with stress is simply reproducing a trait which is already there in that plant's offspring. As long as you don't stress the plants that grow from the seeds produced this way, you aren't changing anything other than the rearrangement of the DNA configuration - which is what happens every time a plant reproduces sexually anyway.

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

If you ordered 'standard' seeds, you will get normal m:f ratios. The next step is to put aside one or two FEMALE plants in a breeding box and subject them to random lighting schedules during weeks 3-5 of flower. You should get seeds, and they will all sprout up female.

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I've never had a male plant with feminized seeds yet. And I'd be VERY interested to hear from anyone with feminized seeds who DO get a male.

I HAVE had some plants that hermied from my feminized seeds. But I can trace every single time thats happened to light leaks found....and once repaired.....no more hermies since.

I'm with Stinky.....I'd do it with lighting and avoid giving the plant anything I didn't need to. That being said.....heck YEAH I'd do it to keep the genetics in play.

Great post from all....From a rookie:jointsmile:

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Originally Posted by Weedhound

I've never had a male plant with feminized seeds yet. And I'd be VERY interested to hear from anyone with feminized seeds who DO get a male.

I HAVE had some plants that hermied from my feminized seeds. But I can trace every single time thats happened to light leaks found....and once repaired.....no more hermies since.

I'm with Stinky.....I'd do it with lighting and avoid giving the plant anything I didn't need to. That being said.....heck YEAH I'd do it to keep the genetics in play.

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To force male flowers on a female, I've used Gibrellic Acid, ( :eek: ) Aspirin tablets, and light. Different grows, not at the same time.

GA has a tendency to burn leaf tissue when applied foliar, but works (strangely, some people freak-out just hearing the name) Aspirin or light poisoning work pretty good too.
I don't keep a record, but since starting doing it a couple of years ago, no discernable differences in quantity or quality of the resultant pollen, and seeds are somewhat consistent thru all mehtods.
Results: Perhaps 90% female, 10% weird females. Sometimes you'll get a plant that is confused about how many fingers her leaves should have, sometimes it's confused about how long the center finger on her leaves should be, sometimes internodal stretch is exaggerated or diminished...minor stuff like that, that altho looks funky, is still smokable. But no males. :thumbsup: If you got any males, it's from another non-hermied pollen source.

This is why it's likely not a good idea to breed a female from forced hermie stock. (don't breed the feminized plant if at all possible, unless it's an emergency or experiment) The genetics can go astray.

Oh one last thing to add... should you decide to herm with gibberelin, don't smoke that plant. Safety first!

The only thing im curious about is that the original poster said he force hermed his male plants. Does force herming male plants produce feminized seeds?

run a search on "male hermaphrodite" under the search function. Stinky explained why forcing males to produce female flowers could be done but she listed several reason why it wasn't a good thing in a great post some time back. Hope you find the post....definitely worth reading and good solid Stink info. :thumbsup:

sweet ill hunt it down. In the mean time, and off topic, why is my rep disabled and how do I change it, anyone know?

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Originally Posted by Algag

The only thing im curious about is that the original poster said he force hermed his male plants. Does force herming male plants produce feminized seeds?

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Although this thread is old...perhaps we should think about this for a second...

When forcing a female plant to produce pollen, she has no male chromosomes to donate to the equation, just her female ones. The male chromosomes come from the male pollen. We may have forced her into survival mode, and forced her to produce nanners, but they are not male nanners, they're female nanners devoid of male chromosomes. This results in embryos with only female chromosomes. In other words...The resultant seeds are 100% female.

Now think of what forcing a male plant will do...given that he has no female chromosomes. Those are not female calyx's and pistols, they are male calyx's and pistols, devoid of female chromosomes. If there are no female chromosomes in the embryo's...what will the result be, and why on earth would you want 100% male seeds?

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

Although this thread is old...perhaps we should think about this for a second...

When forcing a female plant to produce pollen, she has no male chromosomes to donate to the equation, just her female ones. The male chromosomes come from the male pollen. We may have forced her into survival mode, and forced her to produce nanners, but they are not male nanners, they're female nanners devoid of male chromosomes. This results in embryos with only female chromosomes. In other words...The resultant seeds are 100% female.

Now think of what forcing a male plant will do...given that he has no female chromosomes. Those are not female calyx's and pistols, they are male calyx's and pistols, devoid of female chromosomes. If there are no female chromosomes in the embryo's...what will the result be, and why on earth would you want 100% male seeds?

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I don't think I could have said that any better Rusty! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Male Genetics = XY, so
using the model previously established if we breed X1Y1 with X1Y1 the possibilities for the offspring are: X1X1, X1Y1, Y1X1, and Y1Y1

So, that would be 25% female, 50% male and 25% freak that probably wouldn't survive. All of the females would be identical. N'est ce pas?

probably doing the wrong thing here but cant find anywhere to post and since this is the closest thing to my problem thought id post it here.
apologies if i doing the wrong thing but i know no better at the moment.
i grown a couple of clone to maturity but wnem i started to trim em i notcied they had little ball thinks on the underside of the buds on further inspection they were throughout the whole of the very large buds.they are practically spherical in shape and quite hollow and softthey also have a couple of hairs poking out of the top of em. i cut one open and what looks like a grain of saind is inside very very tiny brown thing .
what is this are they femmed polen sacks or male pollen sacks or the very begining of new buds, has the plant hermied and is it now no good.
any help would be bvery much appreciated and stop me from pulling hair out.
i thank you in anticipation that someone will be able to help.
please make a sad man happy tell me it aint bad news.

You should upload a picture. Having hairs coming out makes it sound female to me. Perhaps they got pollinated and the brown thing is the undeveloped seed? Regardless, it will still be perfectly smokable. :)

Those are mature/swollen calyx's, and they are unseeded.
With seeded calyx's, the pistols* (hairs) wither-up, as there is room for only one seed and the pistols are unnecessary from that point forward, for that particular calyx. (usually)

I've also been lucky with getting females. I guess it has to do with the short light period at first, and then putting them under flourescents when the sunlight is not out from seed. I'm not really too sure how i'm lucky because other people get all males with 30 seeds. I guess it is my omen. Now I have to work on getting some real females. lol. So do not hate on the image reaper.

This sounds to me as if Perfect growing conditions produce almost always females. Males were grown under less then perfect conditions.
If thats the case then There would be no natural females in harsher climates. But since there are I must say that its the seed that is male or female.

This is what I use.

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Originally Posted by Gatekeeper777

This sounds to me as if Perfect growing conditions produce almost always females. Males were grown under less then perfect conditions.
If thats the case then There would be no natural females in harsher climates. But since there are I must say that its the seed that is male or female.

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excellent deduction watson.

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Originally Posted by Dimebag

The females should be fertilized and wait a few days for the seeds to ripen.

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I'm wondering if a few days is long enough?

I have a hermie and the seeds have been green for over a month.. Do you wait untill seeds begin to go brown, stripey? Or do you pick and as they dry they get their more familluar brown colour?

I have grown children from a hermie before and 50% of the plants were morphed. Is that not a sighn of the seed not being grown fully as a majority of them were green when harvested.
All female of course..

please clarify the correct time to pull seeds?

lol

ok so iv been reading this site for about 2 weeks and after I posted the above I continued to space out a magnified font and continue thread hunting.
I thank Rusty for answering my question within another thread..

"Ow! My ears!

Green seeds are not nearly ripe. Wait until they are fat and brown, with noticeable dark stripes before harvesting. You can flush at any time. If you are more than 2 weeks from harvest, go back to feeding until about a week from when you plan to chop. "

For anyone who is reading and is in doubt.
And apologies for not having such atrocious spelling above.

Off out to the shed for another :rastasmoke:

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Originally Posted by Scarper

please clarify the correct time to pull seeds?

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After harvesting the plant and it's been dried.
Seeds take between 4 and 6 weeks on the plant to mature and be viable.

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Originally Posted by ninfan77

do you have any info on the method to produce silver nitrate / collodial silver?

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if you want to make silver nitrate (AgNO3 if i remember correctly) you would need silver and nitric acid, and just let them react. there are other ways, but im sure silver nitrate is easier to buy than nitric acid, since nitric acid would be an ingredient in some people's drug manufacture.
but of course that just came out of my brain, no googling involved. google it and i'm sure you can find plenty of methods for producing silver nitrate.

wow thats crazy, im going to try this out when i get the chance(already killed them i had a 50%male/female rate and im hoping this works for me so i can get a 100% female rate,:rastasmoke:

I like your style, and tend to agree with you on some of the things you mentioned in your post. Bringing the "Hay Day" strains back would be awesome, but sorry to say far fetched, unless there are still a few wise crackers holding on to there prized
beans to throw down. I enjoy a good purple Thai from '76 that has high thc AND cbd levels! I thought Mary was always in favor of one or the other, but in this case its the best of both worlds, and every color of the rainbow with a fruity purple-berry-mango-melonesque bouquet and you taste all of the rainbow every hit you take ;D

Guess we need to follow our better judgement and start looking at Mary as part of our herbal repertoire~

Dear Rusty,
Thanks for all the info so far, I would like a little clarification if possible. Are those aspirin the little 83mg kind or the regular 325mg. The entire thread is very facinating to me as I can see reasons to clone as well has want to plant a seed and know that it should grow into a fine lady. If you could refer me anyone or where to find more specifics on Ph, Heat, Light, Pruning, etc. to 'herminize", I will try these methods out, DAMN this is so fun. I live in NorCal, got a too big house, and finally living the 'Vida Loca' (sp?) So why not?

By now, I hope you have been seeing many more of what I think you are describing; the first caylx at the base of the first or second 'alternating' branch nodes, hopefuly you are only seeing preflowering.

Dear "stinkyattic", sure would love to hear more about your technique for light stressing the ladys in some stamens, pretty please?

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Originally Posted by stinkyattic

Never tried it. It's simple to make fem seeds using light stress or heat stress to force-herm a female into producing XX pollen.

But if you've got a known female... it's FAR more efficient simply to take cuttings and clone that sexy mama. You never know if her kids are gonna be as sexy as she was.

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How exactly do you force a female to produce pollen? Can you isolate just a branch in a bag and get pollen at just one site? How late into the flowing cycle can you induce pollenation?