can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your not a moron?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolf Smittler
Printable View
can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your not a moron?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolf Smittler
oh yea one more thing hitler was the anti-christ..good luck with that
So, childofspirit, is your name a slogan reference then?
What boat are you in?
What the fuck is the matter with all you pinheads? Adolf asks to discuss a perfectly reasonable topic and nearly every response is either insulting , rude or just plain fucking pointless! Like dogs barking - just because. Shame on you!
"Reasonable doubt" is a very high standard few things get established with that kind of certainty, math theorems, physical laws, criminal convictions although I doubt if a jury of you peers ( read 12 morons like you) are up to the job. You'd kinda think that religion, being as the stakes are so high, would also get there - but I have never seen anything that amounts even to "strong evidence". In fact the only kind of evidence at all is that a lot of people are very very sure about their religions.
My religious faith is "That God created MJ for our use to help us". My faith is proven every time I smoke it, Because it sure helps me!!:thumbsup:
A great sentiment but smoking what you believe doesnt amount to proof. I have a Book of Mormon somewhere with onionskin pages - if I use it for rolling papers what does that prove?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by intheclouds
Since we are all a bunch of stoners and like to live inside our heads, lemme ask a more basic question:
Do you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you are not just a brain in a vat?
No one can really prove that theism or naturalism is correct. There's evidence for both sides, it's what YOU choose to believe.
Hitler was definitely not an idiot, more like a genius. An evil psychopath? Yes. But an idiot? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Spicoli
Anyhow, back to the question at hand. I basically have no religious beliefs. I don't believe in God, Jesus, Shiva, Mohammed, etc. I was baptized a Catholic and did go to Catholic high school. Neither of my parents were very religious, however. My mother, in fact, was an athiest. As such I was never taught about religion until going to Catholic School and the thing that struck me at that time was that their was no proof. Certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt. There is absolutely no tangible proof that what is in the Bible is any more factual that what was written in the Lord of the Rings. Makes me wonder who millions would be worshiping if Tolkien were alive 1500 years earlier. People believe it because it was what they were taught by their parents, as their parents taught them, and so on.
Religion does serve a purpose. One thing common to all religions, whether Christian, Muslim, or that of a primitive tribe in central Papua New Guinea, is that it provides a set of rules which generally accepted by society. It also provides an ultimate punishment for those who break the rules. My guess is that religions came about based on myths and stories passed down from generation. Over time "Don't wander off into the woods or the boogyman will eat you" eventually turned into "Go to church every Sunday or you'll burn in hell". Realistically there's no more proof of hell than their is of the boogyman. People are weak minded though, and want something to beleive in, so after hearing it long enough they take it as true.
Take that movie, The Village for example. Not a very good movie I'll admit but the concept does illustrate my point. The people in that village beleived 100%that if they went into the woods, wore the color red, etc. the critters were going to come. Why? Was it real? Certainly not. But they had been taught that by people they trusted so they had no reason to beleive otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fengzi
That is exactly my feelings about religion. I think its an ancient method of controlling the masses.
Saying that, I could be wrong, nobody will know till they die, but what really gets my goat is people preaching their beliefs and refusing to accept they could possibly be wrong.
I mean, my mum is a Muslim and when I was in school, I wasnt allowed to eat bacon because its banned in Islam - I dont think its right to force these kind of things on your kids. Now I eat what I want, and although I have a muslim surname, I'm by no stretch of the imagination, a Muslim. I do, however, like the philosophy of Buddhism...it makes the most sense out of all the religions I have researched
i have no belief. do i win?
yes. GO AGNOSTICISM!
Would you state some of the evidence for theism?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
If there really is evidence for both sides then you just dont know - "choosing to believe" one side is intellectually dishonest IMO
Sensei: When they die, the atheists will only get to find out if they are wrong and the theists will only find out if they are right - otherwise dead is dead and there will be noone knowing anything ;)
well... i think so. when i pray to the creator, that i will be able to kill a deer, he grants me with a deer. and when i pray to the creator that i will be able to catch a fish, he gives me the fish. when i ask him to give me berrys he gives me them. and when i ask for cedar bark for my grandma, he gives me the bark for my grandma. so theres my proof that my religion is true.
In fact, i believe i somewhat can.Quote:
can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your religious beliefs are accurate?
Now, i myself believe in everlasting existance. I can only offer weak theories on what happens after life, how does the universum work, does karma exist etc..But im very certain that existance is eternal. Of course, the only thing i can be 100% certain of is that i, myself, exist, since i can perceive that by feeling. That should be the ONLY exact truth, not even wheter it lasts forever(which i believe it does, even if all its information and identity vanishes, the self still remains) or not, and i believe many people will agree with me on this one.
Ok, i dont like to blabber too much, so i will explain it briefly why believing that after you die, you just die and dont exist anymore is a very unrealistic way of viewing things:
First of all, as you can easily perceive, nature is built on this strange duality you see. Good and bad, warm and cold, happines and unhappines, order and chaos, man and woman etc...Also, im sure most of you will agree that, both empirically perceiving and philosophically deducting, they seem to be dependant on each other, and one does not exist without the other. Now if you ask yourself the question "do i exist?", you should come to the conclusion "yes" simply because you should feel that you are. It needs no excuses, you feel your conciousness, you are there. You may not be able to prove it to someone else, but you know it yourself. So, there you have the proof of the spiritual side, as in opposite to matter. It is both easy to perceive and easy to deduct that matter is the opposite of this spiritual side of yours, the side that is all the perceptions and feelings.
Now, we know this:
1. Yin and Yang need each other in order to exist, and as long as the other excist, the other does as well.
2.Matter exists
3.Spirit exists
Now, if you know anything about physics, you know that matter is eternal. You can destroy a furniture, it just goes into smaller pieces. You can destroy its atoms, but to be honest, atoms are not the smallest pieces in the universe. There are no smallest pieces, there is only one thing: MASS. So, if matter cannot be demolished into unexistence, why could spirit then? In other words, the so called 'death' is a very VERY unrealistic theory. Its a theory that you suddenly are, and then you arent. That is NOT how the universum works. The human mind has the power to believe that something lasts forever or doesent, in other words may believe there is no end. But in its feebleness, it cannot comprehend if there is no beginning, and the universum, i believe, has no beginning nor end. If not, what was before before there was anything to be?
So, believing that once you see someones body die, you think his/her spiritual side dies too, its similiar to when a caveman without better knowledge thinks that matter can disappear.
Now, i would like to see some christian or atheist unprove my point with other than "no, man, i just believe otherwise, you will know when you see Jesus yourself!" or "no!".
BTW, if someone actually believes what the bible says, then good luck. Historical fact for you: Jesus used to go to bordells, and this is true.
fact # 2: Bible used to have multiple versions, people just picked the most fitting one. They were, of course, not going well together.
There's this guy who believes he's a good Catholic. He goes to Church every Sunday. Avoids sinning as much as possible and when he does sin he goes to confession. He reads his bible reguarly and prays every night before he goes to bed.
Every night after his evening prayer he asks "God, I'm a good Catholic and a true believer. I always do my best to uphold the word of the Lord, and teach others about the teaching of Jesus. So, please Lord, just once, let me win the lottery"
The man does this for 20 years and then, finally, one day he says "God, every night I ask the same thing, just one wish I have, to win the lottery. Despite all the good work I've done in your name it's never happened. I no longer believe you exist, for if you did, surely you would have answered my prayer by now. I'll no longer go to Church and no longer worship you. From now on I'm an athiest"
Suddenly there's a deafening clap of thunder, the clouds part and a ray of sun beams down on the mans face, and a deep booming voice says "GO BUY A FUCKING TICKET YOU MORON!"
Just a joke but relevant to the thread
Well I do know a bit about physics - its my line of work. Quarks and leptons are the fundamental particlesQuote:
Originally Posted by EternalEnemy
http://www2.slac.stanford.edu/vvc/th...ndamental.html
- if you can find one smaller then you are a shoo in for the Nobel and I would love to have your autograph or even a discarded kleenex from you. And mass can indeed be destroyed. For one thing it can be converted into energy and energy back into matter - remember E=MC^2 ?- thats the conversion formula. This is a routine operation in a big accelerator. Also, matter both appears and vanishes spontaneously in the vacuum - its a quantum effect due to the uncertainty principle - empty space foams with evanescent matter. Actually this is the basis of an important result by Hawking who showed that black holes will decay because of this evanesence on the scwarzchild radius. The particles appear in pairs matter and anti matter - sometimes one of the pair is sucked into the black hole before it can recombine with its anti pair and vanish. In this way the black hole slowly bleeds energy and turns "brown"
I dont see how you establish the existence of "spirit" sure you believe that the universe is constructed on a duality and that symmetry strongly suggests to you the existence of a spirit world - but this is all your opinion - the question was on proof
So where are we so far? Not one shred of evidence or proof - just opinions - which are ten a penny
ummmmmm, can ANYONE prove without a reasonable doubt that their religious beliefs are accurate? nope. there's a little concept called FAITH, it goes hand in hand with almost all religions.
you are an idiot. the only person regarded was hitler, not his victims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Spicoli
this duality is a helpful way to explain things but not really a rule in the universe. cold is not a force like heat but an absence of heat. it doesn't really exist at all. just because you can feel something doesn't mean it's there the way you percieve it. gender wasn't evolved for billions of years after life, and after the sun's red giant phase has burned off all other life on earth, the last to die off will be the simple archaebacteria who are resistant to or thrive in extreme conditions. good and evil are complicated illusions based on what is favorable for a species. and though i'm pretty sure there hasn't been anybody that was continuously happy from birth to death, there have certainly been people who never knew happiness. oh, and way to go mr. physicist. you say there is no smallest piece of matter, yet have you ever even heard of a planck length (the smallest possible distance)? the smallest particle can be no smaller than this. matter has an opposite; it's called antimatter shitstick. and i can easily disprove yin and yang with the photon. do you know what an antiphoton is? just a photon. it has no opposite. though, according to the law of preservation of energy and matter, matter is never truly destroyed, it stays roughly the same for a while, then rapidly changes. therefore, if the soul could be proven to exist, souls would be inherited along with the genetics. and most importantly of all, you assume that the mind exists as an entity seperate from the body called a "soul", but it's just a process. how do you explain people whose brains were badly injured and repaired, but lost all memories and aquired personality traits? if you think these things are not part of the soul, then a soul would not be part of the person.Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalEnemy
the aztecs believed that they had to sacrifice people to persuade the sun god to raise the sun every morning. sure enough, after they sacrificed somebody, the sun rose for days on end. does this prove that their religion is fact? if god descended down to earth and delivered those berries to you in the form of a heavenly pie, that would be real proof. all you have to do to kill a deer is shoot it. all you have to do to get cedar bark is peel it off of a cedar tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by partyguy420
No of course you cant, its an impossible assignment and only fools rise to the bait - as we have seen here. Adolf is taunting you - what else would you expect from Herr Smitler? ;) Never mind beyond a reasonable doubt, how about just strong proof or any fucking proof at all? Hasnt made an appearance yet in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixel
Faith is a matter of feeling very certain about something even when there is no evidence. Humans are very prone to this and it leads to all kinds of problems - they confuse the strength of their feelings with fact or evidence. Remember Heavans Gate? They sure had faith. How about the suicide bombers ? Men of great conviction. How about GW Bush? God put him here to bring democracy to the middle east! You may feel differently but he is damn sure of it!
Its a funny thing but the brain is quite capable of seeing clearly something that is just logicaly impossible. I like this
Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Alice in Wonderland.
:)
There has been no proof of anyone reaching the core of matter. Can you say atoms are the smallest pieces in existance? Or the smallest possible ones?Quote:
- if you can find one smaller then you are a shoo in for the Nobel and I would love to have your autograph or even a discarded kleenex from you.
Maybe if i should be more accurate with scientific terms and you should be less meticulous? Ok, doesent matter wheter we call it matter or what. If it is turned into energy, it can be still turned back to matter, like you said and blah blah. But energy, too, is a perceivable existing thing. The duality here is perceivable and unperceivable. Existance of a 'soul' that im speaking of is unperceivable, except for the soul itself(meaning you should realize your own existance).Quote:
And mass can indeed be destroyed. For one thing it can be converted into energy and energy back into matter
I have no proof if youre an agnostic. If youre not, then my proof lies on sane deduction and perceiving. You should look around and analyze.Quote:
I dont see how you establish the existence of "spirit" sure you believe that the universe is constructed on a duality and that symmetry strongly suggests to you the existence of a spirit world - but this is all your opinion - the question was on proof
Oh yes it does quite seem to be.Quote:
this duality is a helpful way to explain things but not really a rule in the universe.
Im very aware of that. So, if there was no absence of heat, the whole idea of absence of heat at all in existance, then we would not have heat at all. There would only be so hot that...we would not really know hotness at all. Its own fullfillness would destroy it. This really needs no further explaining.Quote:
cold is not a force like heat but an absence of heat.
Religion is strictly something based on faith alone, with no proof available
if its able to be proven in any way using existing data, observation, or experimentation it is no longer religion but what is considered to be science, therefore if you can prove something using either data, observation, or experimentation it is by definition science, and not religion.
oh and partyguy 420 this is for you
Hey god i please want a gatorade ????
OH LOOK WHAT DO YOU KNOW I HAVE A GATORADE !!!!!!!
therefore since there is a gatorade here now, my god is real
side note (there already was a gatorade here.... just like how the deer and fish were there before he prayed as well as his grandma's.... cedar bark) by the way partyguy 420 i REALLY hope you were kidding when you said that
its not as simple as just shooting a deer when your using a bow and is just not as simple as you think it is shooting an animal it requires careful steps careful shots and careful thinking. as for the cedar bark it may be that easy to just peel it off the tree but you have to know when it is the right time to peel it you have to know that the creator gave you the right amount of rain and sunshine to make it usable. and on the berries you have to hope that the creator gives you the right amount of sun and rain for growing conditions to make them sweet and of the right texture. so fuck off thank you very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolf Smittler
im just going to say this, fuck you guys, i belive what i belive, i was taught that if you want to make your hunt successful, you pray to the creator, if you want to make your fishing, berry picking, or bark stripping successful, you pray to the creator.
just like the christians pray to their lord to thank him for the food thats on their table or when they pray that their family wont break apart or stuff like that, that is what i do, i pray to my creator. so fuck you closeminded pricks.
No! I said quarks and leptons are the smallest particles known and that if you can find one smaller this is a very very big deal. Didnt you read Herr Smitlers post? Plancks constant is the granularity of free space - there is no size smaller than that! You are the one who asserted, with out any justification whatsoever, that matter is infinitely divisible - you made the assertion now back it up. Modern Physics, if you know anything about it, (sic) says you are wrong Dead wrong! Neither matter nor energy nor space itself are infinitely divisible. And if you think that the difference between a photon, a quark and say the energy in a gravitational field is just a matter of details then you really have no grasp of physics at all!Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalEnemy
please yes! Being meticulous is the very foundation of science - there is no "too meticulous" when you are doing science or using it to support your ideasQuote:
Originally Posted by EternalEnemy
Yes energy exists and its perceivable. Physics is with you here :) But so what? I am an atheist. I dont have a soul. As for realizing that I exist - frankly I have doubts but thats another debate. But what does this have to do with energy?Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalEnemy
No that doesnt wash. Either its proof or it aint. It makes no difference who is listening. You cant depend on a sympathetic ear.Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalEnemy
Look around? What the hell do you mean by that? I have worked hard all my life to find out and understand the world I live in. I made a serious study of math and science - I do that stuff for a living and I love it. I have lived in many countries not just visited, lived. - learned to speak 4 languages and read 7 - Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic and Latin among them. (Arabic and Latin are almost rusted shut but they served their purpose) I have read the OT in its original Hebrew (and some Aramaic) because I wanted to go to the source. I cant stand bullshit! I really do think I can say I have "looked around" .
Now my credo? I prefer to spread my cards out for all to see. I am an atheist. There is no god , there is no soul, there is no supernatural and dead is dead. Life is a complicated kind of fire that burns because it can. The purpose of life is to increase entropy. The meaning of life is that life goes on. ( By that I mean biological life - not human existance. ) For a man, the meaning of life is the living of it. The universe doesnt know we exist and would not care if it did.
Now it sounds to me that instead of looking around you have been watching Star Trek. That stuff is just fiction - did you know that? And bad fiction at that too. It's racist bullshit and makes a mockery of physics among other things. My suggestion for you is to do some serious looking around; read a basic college physics book. Sears & Zemansky is a great choice. They have a non calculus version too although IMO physics without calculus is like a dance without music. But its a lot of work - most people just arent upto it. But if you do do it, you will be rewarded with astonishing, beautiful insights . Real insights! The kind that can only be achieved by hard, disciplined work. Not the drivel you hear on Star Trek. (I suspect the script is written by hairdressers) I'd be happy to send you a used copy of S & Z, I have several lying around and I would be happy to tutor you through the entire book and calculus too - quite serious. That is if you are interested in "looking around"
Hunh? Man puhleeeez what are you smoking and where do I get some - its awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by EternalEnemy
why? dont you think for yourself? did they teach you "fuck you guys" when people disagree with your position?Quote:
Originally Posted by partyguy420
I have pretty good success in my endeavors and I dont pray, ever! (though I used to) I dont thank god for my food either - yet I eat well every day and have for over 50 years. So the question is, what does all that really do for you other than make you feel right?Quote:
Originally Posted by partyguy420
Since I abandoned all religious faith my life has been pretty damn good! Materially and emotionally and intellectually. So what does this prove one way or the other? Well one thing - when someone curses you because you dont see things the way he does - thats closed minded;)
Religon is bound by the concept of relative truth; what is true to one is not true to all.
Well if you believe time to be truely infinte
then you could go on to say that any/every possibility (an infinite amount of possibilities) would happen an infinate amount of times through the scope of time
which would lead you to believe that your life/position in time is truely a crapshoot right, everything you see/everything that happens is due to living out that one chance out of infinity.
or would that go in hand in saying that things are fated to be? or that life is a crapshoot. I wonder. But if time is infinate then I guess all im sayin is i dont really see the role a "god" would have...so i guess im just disproving any god-based religion rather than proving anything....
but i guess one could argue that time only exists until you die if they really wanted too...but i still dont see how agod would play out in that either...
dammit i didnt answer shit! just more questions...man im too stoned for this
I have a legitimate question at this time, and hopefully you'll have good answers since you claim to work in this field. How do you know quarks and leptons are the smallest thing? Can you explain more about plancks constant? what's limiting the size? And how did the constant get derived? I keep hearing about quantum particles violating the laws of physics lately, appearing and disappeaing aparently at random. Possibly something about multiple dimensions? But are you saying we've actually reached a limit? We've hit a boundary?Quote:
Originally Posted by altagid
I have this huge suspicion that time will reveal that you're calling the world flat, or declaring that the sun rotates around the earth.
Here's a modern cosmological argument in favour of theism:Quote:
Originally Posted by altagid
1. The existence of something is intelligible only if it has an explanation.
(By definition of intelligibility)
2. The existence of the universe thus either:
(a) is unintelligible, or
(b) has an explanation (from step 1)
3. No rational person should accept 2-a (By definition of rationality)
4. A rational person should accept 2-b: The universe has an explanation.
(from steps 2 and 3)
5. There are only 3 kinds of explanations:
(a) Scientific: Explanations of the form C+L->E (independent initial physical conditions, plus relevant laws, yield the event explained)
(b) Personal: Explanations that cite the desires, beliefs, powers, and intentions of some personal agent.
(c) Essential: The essence of the thing to be explained necessitates its existence or qualities.
6. The explanation for the existence of the whole universe can't be scientific. (There can't be initial physical conditions and laws independent of what is to be explained)
7. The explanation for the existence of the whole universe can't be essential. (The universe is not the sort of thing that exists necessarily.) Therefore (hold on to your chair)
8. A rational person should believe that the universe has a personal explanation.
9. No personal agent but God could create an entire universe.
Therefore,
10. A rational person should believe that there is a God.
The existence of God is intelligible not because it was caused by anything or anyone, but because it flows from his essence. (ontological arguement)
I'm Agnostic, I can't stand religion. :thumbsup:
That isnt in any way a proof of inteligence,if u think that their is no god than prove it yourself.Nobody makes you believe in god, it is your choice to make,so stop this stupid thread.
NOBODY CAN TELL YOU IF THEY'RE RELIGION IS ACCURATE. IF ANYONE KNEW FOR SURE THE RIGHT RELIGION WE'D ALL CONVERT TO IT. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. I BELIEVE THAT EVERY RELIGION HAS THE SAME MESSAGE. LIVE UR LIFE WITH GOOD INTENTIONS AND GOOD MORALS... AND U'LL BE JUST FINE!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolf Smittler
Cronton
stupider is not a word...it's more stupid:pQuote:
Originally Posted by jailer3000
You are asking good questions but they are big ones and I dont know how to do this succinctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
We dont know that they are the smallest things in existence - in fact we suspect that there are indeed smaller components and String Theory is the main hope right now. But they are the smallest things that can be experimentally verified with the tools the we have at this time. Mainly thats the big supercolliders - like the one at Fermi Lab or Cern. Unfortunately what we do know is that if we tried to build a super collider large enough and fast enough to produce something smaller than a quark, the collider would be so large it couldnt fit on the planet or even within the solar system. This means that, at present time we have no experimental way to look for things like strings. And when you cant test your theories with an experiment you are no longer doing science - its philosophy or something else - actually its called "bullshit".
The atomic structure of matter was really discovered at the end of the 19th century and into the first part of the 20th. This was really the first confrontation with the granularity of nature. Suddenly water was no longer continously divisible. Further investigations, Bohr, Einstein, began to show that energy itself is lumpy and the size of the smallest lumps are related to Plancks Constant. http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000...electric2.html
These ideas, and their implications are the foundations of the Quantum theory of physics and they were considered difficult and surprising at the time and are still considered very difficult today despite the drivel that one hears from Star Trek and solemnly recanted from the mouths of moronic stoners on this site. (I have no real problem with people who are ignorant - every one is ignorant about lots stuff - what bothers me are ignorant people who dont know they are ignorant and make pompous statements like "if you know anything about physics" when they know nothng themselves - nuff ranting . ) Glibly the theory says that energy is granular and its behaviour is always to some extent random. It turns out that if matter is lumpy then so is space because they are intertwined and in consequence space itself is lumpy and again plancks constant is the measure of its granularity.
Because of the uncertainty principle you can never have a clean vacuum. If you did you would know for sure that there are no particles in that region of space and quantum theory says you cant know that much - so it must be that particles are randomly appearing and dissappearing in you "vacuum". On the average you have a vacuum but at any particular time you are likely to have an evanescent matter anti matter pair or two in your vacuum flask. This really bizarre consquence of quantum theory can be experimantaly verified by an effect known as the Casimir effect. The quantum version of the conservation laws says they only apply on the average. IMO soaking up this idea is better than smoking weed
You have more questions but I think I have gone on long enough
No thats not it. Let me try to explain it a little better..............I believe it was put here to help us. So when I smoke it and it helps me to relax, feel better and just generally a feeling of well being, That proves (to me, maybe not everyone) that it was put here for the purpose of helping us.Quote:
Originally Posted by altagid
PS. I hope this makes better sense. I was feeling no pain when I wrote the 1st statement and when I went back I seen why you said what you did.
You ignored my post. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by altagid
pretty good logic except for one part: the universe is the ONLY thing that exists necessarily. the universe is, by definition, everything. it must exist because nothing can not be part of the universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
a couple of links i hope will clarify my views on religion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster