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Nice :thumbsup: I like the 20/20 thing. That makes so much sense. The bible is like a bunch of riddles to me. I guess I just don't have a lot of patience for reading long text book style material. I need action! :pimp:Quote:
Originally Posted by mont974x4
Eva
I looked up the Matt 5:18, 15:4-7, Luke 16:17, and 2 Tim 3:16 references he used. So out of context I don't even know where to start. LOL OK, I'll just point out the 2 Tim 3:16 ref...It speaks to the validity of the Bible.
Eva, plenty of action in the Bible. lol It can be hard to get into sometimes. Studying the geneolgy makes my eyes cross. lol but I know its important.
FLEASH:
Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind is not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of 6 billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl s parents believe at this very moment that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?
SISTAR: See this is where my beliefs get tricky for someone such as you. I beieve that we chart out our lives, and bad things either happen because they were supposed to, or because someone nasty just did it, because we still have free will. Our charts, I believe, also have alternatives. It has to, because of free will. The future is not written in stone.
Hard times are when we dig deep, and really grow. It sucks, but that is why I believe we are even here. We can't "learn" anything in a perfect enviroment such as gods. So we come here, like school. Go home, "grade" ourselves, and come back again to learn something else.
Again, these are my beliefs, I don't expect anyone here to agree with me. But please just don't tear them apart, or I will exit the conversation :)
I'll be back with more....
According the Bible trials happen for a reason. Sometimes its for us to grow. For me its usually to teach me to lean on Him. Sometimes its for someone else. I may endure a trial simply so I can help someone else later with compassion and understanding.
No where in the Bible does it tell us life will be all peachy just because we are saved. In fact, it tells us the opposite. We will have trials, as I just mentioned. We will also be attacked for what we believe. (Do you think the Muslim world hates us because we are a rich capitalist society or because they view us as Christian society?)
FLESH:The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.
SISTAR:I took the below from this link: http://www.carm.org/atheism/atheism.htm
The word â??atheismâ?? comes from the negative â??aâ?? which means â??noâ?? and â??theosâ?? which means â??god.â?? Hence, atheism in the most base terms means â??no god.â?? Basically, atheism is the lack of belief in a god and/or the belief that there is no god. By contrast, theism is the belief that there is a God and that He is knowable. I need to mention that most atheists do not consider themselves anti-theists. Most consider themselves as non-theists.
I've encountered many atheists who claim that atheism is not a belief system while others say it is. Since there is no official atheist organization, nailing down which definition of atheism to use can be difficult. Following are some definitions offered by atheists.
Finally, there is a group of atheists that I call militant atheists. They are, fortunately, few in number. They are usually highly insulting and profoundly terse in their comments to theists, particularly Christians. Iâ??ve encountered a few of them and they are vile, rude, and highly condescending. Their language is full of insults, profanity, and blasphemies. Basically, no meaningful conversation can be had with them at all.
FLESH: It is worth noting that no one ever needs to identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, atheism is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87% of the population) who claim to never doubt the existence of God should be obliged to present evidence for his existence and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day.
SISTAR:Then your not a militant athiest? By this description, and the one I found. Just askind, correct me if I am wrong.
FLESH:We live in a world where all things, good and bad, are finally destroyed by change. Parents lose their children and children their parents. Husbands and wives are separated in an instant, never to meet again. Friends part company in haste, without knowing that it will be for the last time. This life, when surveyed with a broad glance, presents little more than a vast spectacle of loss. Most people in this world, however, imagine that there is a cure for this. If we live rightlyâ??not necessarily ethically, but within the framework of certain ancient beliefs and stereotyped behaviorsâ??we will get everything we want after we die. When our bodies finally fail us, we just shed our corporeal ballast and travel to a land where we are reunited with everyone we loved while alive. Of course, overly rational people and other rabble will be kept out of this happy place, and those who suspended their disbelief while alive will be free to enjoy themselves for all eternity.
SISTAR:This a very narrow-minded view of people who believe in GOD. To me death is just a transition. Death is advancment of ones soul. Funerals are for the living, and when your dead, you don't care how much money you made, or who you were mad at. And I don't believe anyone will keep you out of "heaven" but yourself, by not going. For whatever reason, being ashamed, Some people have horrible deaths, and don't know they are dead. Maybe a husband caught his wife cheating, killed her and the guy, then himself, and won't go to the white light because he is still stuck in this, I will go to hell now mind set. These earth bound spirits are called ghosts. I have seen them. Again, my beliefs, maybe controversial, but FLESH wanted them, so here they are......
FLESH:We live in a world of unimaginable surprises--from the fusion energy that lights the sun to the genetic and evolutionary consequences of this lights dancing for eons upon the Earth--and yet Paradise conforms to our most superficial concerns with all the fidelity of a Caribbean cruise. This is wondrously strange. If one didnâ??t know better, one would think that man, in his fear of losing all that he loves, had created heaven, along with its gatekeeper God, in his own image.
SISTAR:See, this is what happens when and finite mind starts a story explaining an infinite place. I don't call this place heaven, I call it the otherside (of the veil). And an infintite place can not be limited in any way shape or form. And giving it a landscape does just that.
FLESH:Consider the destruction that Hurricane Katrina leveled on New Orleans. More than a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and nearly a million were displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely he heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: These poor people died talking to an imaginary friend.
SISTAR:Katrina set a stage, it opened peoples eyes to "our government". It was a huge wake up call, not onnly to how weak our government is, but how FUCKED up they are. Those people died for a reason. Also, New Orleans was like a bowl. They built damns to push the ocean back, to build! Mother nature, Father God (so to speak). This whole essay is based on the very "religion" I do not agree with. So we both agree that "religion" is screwed up. That isn't proof there is no god. It is just MORE proof that people are fucked up.
This is going to take forever......
From a biblical standpoint this life is temporary. The spiritual life is eternal. The horrible existence that it is was born of our own free will. When Adam and Eve disobeyed it brought sin into the world. All that is necessary to live in heaven forever is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. This salvation is something we receive not something we acheive. That being said, when entered into this relationship and we grow to be Christian (defined as Christ-like) we become less selfish and greedy and more loving, gracious, and merciful. This process is often refered to as sanctification. We don't do good to get to heaven we do good because we want to. When we talk about works it's a matter of the heart and your motivation.
FLESH:If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities or he does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish Godâ??s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If he exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.
SISTAR:Absolutely god could stop calamities. But they happen for a reason, and death isn't as big of a deal as this article makes it out to be. Yeah, I miss people that die, but I will see them again, and I am happy for them to have moved on from this earth. And god does care, he hated to see jesus suffer. But again, it was all for a greater purpose, down the road.
As far as gods name, there article I posted spelt my belief out nicely.
And gay marriage? All god wants people to do is love eachother, respect eachother, and learn from one another. He doesn't care what you do to get off, because we all get off. So how does the way it is achieved matter?
LOL I'll leave the gay thing alone for now. One controversy at a time.
FLESH:Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved
SISTAR: by your definition, an athiest is not the only one who recognizes this. The "saved" priest who decides who is saved, and molests little choir boys because he wants to get off, but won't marry because THAT would be a sin. And appearently this same priest's ALL KNOWING, COMMANDING GOD can't see through closed doors. So as long as you don't tell, he won't know ;)
I Think you pick the thing's I believe that seem "new agish" and totally look away from my message. We really do believe a lot the same.....
who? me? lol
I think the catholic church has done us all a great disservice. They should have hammered those priests. Of course, I don't agree with the need for a priest on earth as Jesus fills that role. I don't think its biblical to demand spiritual leaders to be single. It certainly isn't biblical to pray to Mary. I think we covered the tradition issue already.
sorry I got ona rant. ;-)
FLESH:According to several recent polls, 22% of Americans are certain that Jesus will return to Earth sometime in the next 50 years. Another 22% believe that he will probably do so. This is likely the same 44% who go to church once a week or more, who believe that God literally promised the land of Israel to the Jews and who want to stop teaching our children about the biological fact of evolution.
SISTAR:This is sort of a contradiction. Because I know hard core catholics do not believe in reincarnation. Yes, I know jesus is special though. But who is to say that the whole 44% is this type of religious fanatic? I believe Jesus could come back, I believe I have many times over. But I don't believe god promised anybody land. And I think evolution/adaption are science and should be taught in schools. Just not as a theory involving GOD, unless you are going to teach all of them. GOD should not be something that is taught to you. It is something you come to, when/if your ready.
No, sorry. I haven't addressed anything you said. I think I understand your belief system. And I am sure I know what your view on homosexuality is. I think our only real difference is that you look to the bible as a manual, and I don't. And that is fine :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mont974x4
It is nice to have someone follow up with bible info though, seriously :)Specially since this essay is based on the strict interpretation of it.
Actually, the Bible says Isreal was promised land. When they came out of Egypt. Sources outside the Bible (historical texts) and even archeology is proving the Bible to be very accurate in historical matters. No other group of people have been subject to attempted annihalation (sp?) more often than the Jewish people.
I don't belive in evolution. lol no big surprise there, but I do believe in adaptation. There is a diferece...but that's in another thread.
LOL I get annoyed when people quote the Bible as evidence against itself. Makes no sense to me anyways. It's worse when they don't know what they're talking about.
Of course, part of that problem is biblical illiteracy in the chucrh itself. People just here a reference and take it at face value without checking it themselves. It makes them easily swayed.
FLESH:People of faith regularly claim that atheism is responsible for some of the most appalling crimes of the 20th century.
SISTAR:I don't blame athiesm, I blame people. I won't even blame all religion, or any one religion. There are good muslims, and there are suicidal muslims. It is all about people.
FLESH:In a world riven by ignorance, only the atheist refuses to deny the obvious: Religious faith promotes human violence to an astonishing degree. Religion inspires violence in at least two senses: (1) People often kill other human beings because they believe that the creator of the universe wants them to do it (the inevitable psychopathic corollary being that the act will ensure them an eternity of happiness after death). Examples of this sort of behavior are practically innumerable, jihadist suicide bombing being the most prominent. (2) Larger numbers of people are inclined toward religious conflict simply because their religion constitutes the core of their moral identities. One of the enduring pathologies of human culture is the tendency to raise children to fear and demonize other human beings on the basis of religion. Many religious conflicts that seem driven by terrestrial concerns, therefore, are religious in origin. (Just ask the Irish.)
SISTAR:My belief on killing.....I do not believe in capitol punishment ONLY because I don't feel like humans get to make the decision when another dies. People die when they are suppose to. No matter what age.
This whole article is not what I believe, so I am going to stop here. I think I have proven my point. If you'd like me to continue FLESH, just ask :)
lol at least there's plenty for him to read and respond too. That should help carry the discussion further.
Neither, they hate us because were an imperialistic nation who they think (I think we are) are trying to take them over. Not directly, but by destroying their governments and installing ours. Just like we did in South and Central America.Quote:
Originally Posted by mont974x4
Interesting theory. I never thought of giving people the freedom to vote and choose its leaders as imperialistic.
Tell that to the South American countries where we helped to assassinate democratically elected leaders. Then we replaced them with puppet dictators that we controlled. Plus we did invade Iraq over WMD's (the original reason, not that we wanted to give them peace) because they were a "threat" to our country.Quote:
Originally Posted by mont974x4
DO you think we were right to try and invade Cuba? (Well not directly) That was a movement supported by the majority of their people to oust one of our puppets. They're doing a lot better now. They may not have money, but they certainly provide for their people. Unlike our ungrateful basterds in power who will spend a shit load of money on weapons to kill people in other countries instead fixing our failing education system, welfare, social security, and health care.
We need to let countries sort it out for themselves, that way if things go wrong they can only blame themselves and not us. It just perpetuates the chaos. Look at it now! Fucking insane
If we spend money on aid instead of bombs our popularity in the Middle East would sky rocket. Before the huge, recent tsunami, Ben laden had way more support then the U.S. in the Philippians. After the wave and we gave them aid we gained like 30% while he lost it. I canâ??t find a source but I heard it from Bill Clinton when he gave a speech at my school.
It so strange to find people on here who are so different (and ignorant, no offence but its what our country has done, is doing. Besides slavery, imperialism its one of the reasons why we're so powerful.) I have to keep reminding myself that we all have one thing in common: stoned:
No, I'm ignorant too. Always will be, can't help it, nothing more then a good looking ape with superb verbal skills
LMAO Moon, thanks.
"DO you think we were right to try and invade Cuba? (Well not directly) That was a movement supported by the majority of their people to oust one of our puppets. "
Oops I ment Communist revolution by Castro instead of That.
I know that we helped install leaders we thought would be sympathetic to the US. How involved we were I'm not sure. When they turned out to be horrible people wouldn't we have a responsibility to fix it?
We know Saddam had WMD, he even used it on his own people. Where it went? My guess is Syria, but that's only a possibility. Since Saddam was a terrorist and supported terror I view the war in Iraq as part of the war on terror.
I think if we look at how we handle the after war issues throughout our history, I don't think imperialism...in its basic definition...doesn't fit. We haven't just gobbled up land in a to the victor goes the spoils mentality. We've helped the people of those nations rebuild. When they could handle things on their own we've slowly withdrawn our troops. Unless they became allies and allowed us to stage troops there to help defend them from other threats.
I do believe that since we are a strong nation, if we see something wrong and we have the ability to take a stand then we also have a responsibility to take that stand. I think its part of living in a community. If I know me neighbor is abusing his kids and I can help those kids I have a responsibility to do what I can....even if it brings risks to myself.
LOL wow we really got off topic. Sorry.
Even more off topic..Thanks for being the kind of person that DOES get involved when kids are being abused!! Most people turn their heads...so thank you for caring enough if it did happen YOU would get involved.:thumbsup:
aww shucks. ain't nothin.
why is there a political conversation here now? I could be wrong, since I stay away from those things, but I think there is a board for that too.....anyway.....
Sorry Eva...probably all my fault ;-P
Of course, many times religion and politics are entwined.
I do apologize for the thread hijacking.
I didn't even think you started it....:-P
I guess you did, dammit mont! joking :)
(I hope you don't mind me calling you that, it is easier than remembering those numbers you have)
call me whatever ya want. lol
Your right, the religion described in FLESH's essay is just that. Politics, Business, Control. The article is also propaganda, because it is placing people in an 3 catagories basically. Fundamentalist, Moderate, and Athiest. That is a huge hype up. I am none of them. I am not a moderate either FLESH, so don't even think it. I read about the Mayans, the Inca, The Hopi, the Agnostics, the Christian Agnostics, Astrology, numerology, I believe in Chakras, and Reincarnation. I read about lost civilizations, who were run off or killed by these hard core assholes. Jesus was killed just like all the "witches" in Salem. Of course it was wrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by mont974x4
The author of this essay was probably beaten with a bible by the priest who molested him for 10 years. :(
Hopefully this converstaion has at least shown you that there is more out there than what you believe religion to be, and your belief system (athiesm). Even people who do believe wholly in the bible like Mont can be VERY peaceful, loving individuals.
Mont knows god knows all. The people you describe disgrace god daily, even more by using his name as a reason for atrocities. Or even back to the priests, did they or did they not believe in an all knowing god. Did they think that because the door was shut, GOD didn't know what they were doing?
You see, we are on the same side. The only difference is that you say there is no god, and I say there is. :)
Eva
By the end of the conversation I was talking to FLESH, not Mont :) Sorry...
LOL I am may be an old Army guy but I'm at least smart enough to realize where the post was aimed. ;-P but thanks. And thanks for the compliments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mont974x4
Your welcome...The Idea is a good moral to follow through on!
Always good to have diferent insites during a good discussions