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Look, it doesn't even matter if Jesus IS the Son of God, according to him I'm still going to Hell no matter what I do, and so is anybody who has ever "blasphemed the Holy Ghost."
Fuck the Holy Ghost. It's a stupid idea that doesn't even make any sense. There. See, I'm going to Hell and accepting a million Jesuses won't change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 12:31-32
Mellow Man, Moses DID NOT say an eye for an eye. And Christianity is very much the religion of PAUL, many experts believe that christianity has its present shape only because of Paul and his interpretations. In fact, Peter was initially against spreading Jesus' thoughts to non-Jews, because he felt that the Jewish background was essential.
Oh, and a note on Jesus' name, in Hebrew his name is Joshua, it's just that we kept the Latin form of his name because it's more identifiable...
All hail Joshua!
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. I have faith, I do not need proof in everything. As I said, my faith is strong and it makes me a better person.Quote:
Originally Posted by weirdo79
Also, my faith is behond the bible. Quotes from the bible that was tampered with is not anything to change a mind over. But this is my P.O.V, not that it is right but it is right for me.
So if your faith doesn't come from the Bible, and it doesn't come from observable evidence, then where does it come from? The only thing I can think of is you're making it up and convincing yourself it's true.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
No see where I got my ideas and beliefs from was the Bible. Its hard to explain. You see I learn of many beliefs from all religions. I think all religions have truth and lies within them, you just need to find the truth. When I was younger, I had faith in the bible, but I grew up and leanrt that the Bible is altered. Why should I have faith in something altered? So I took my time and thought out all my old beliefs. What I came to the conclusion too was that God is our creator but not in the sence we are told. God created the earth and let us grow. Evoloution is no a far fetched idea. God wanted us to achive but God didn't want to hand everything over to us and make everything easy. God knew that we would grow and learn and God is pleased with that. I also believe that there is no hell. God is all powerful right? Well how can their be a war with the fallen angel is God is all powerful? I think the truth is that we repeate our lives over and over again until we reach the state in which we have accepted God and have nothing but faith. A murderer will repeat his life (not doing the same thing, he will just be reborn) and will be give unlimited chances of rebirth until he achives what God wants him/her to achive. My ideas and my faith, thouse is mixed from many religions and many non religions is mine. I may not be right but who ever really knows if they are right? My faith is not made up, it is simply a mix of many.
Prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
Prove it.Quote:
God created the earth and let us grow.
Prove it.Quote:
Evoloution is no a far fetched idea. God wanted us to achive but God didn't want to hand everything over to us and make everything easy.
Prove it.Quote:
God knew that we would grow and learn and God is pleased with that.
Prove it.Quote:
I also believe that there is no hell.
I suppose if there was a God, he would be all-powerful by definition. But as to the existence of God? Prove it.Quote:
God is all powerful right?
Prove it.Quote:
Well how can their be a war with the fallen angel is God is all powerful? I think the truth is that we repeate our lives over and over again until we reach the state in which we have accepted God and have nothing but faith.
Prove it.Quote:
A murderer will repeat his life (not doing the same thing, he will just be reborn) and will be give unlimited chances of rebirth until he achives what God wants him/her to achive.
Yeah, it's a mix of many people's made-up thoughts. There's no evidence for any of it. You seem to have cherry-picked things from different religions that describe the way you would like the universe to work, and then convinced yourself that that's the way it really does work. How can you say things with such confidence when you admit you don't have any evidence that any of it is true?Quote:
My ideas and my faith, thouse is mixed from many religions and many non religions is mine. I may not be right but who ever really knows if they are right? My faith is not made up, it is simply a mix of many.
That's what I mean when I say we need to abandon this faith stuff. It just encourages people to make shit up and pretend it's true, instead of looking for the real answers by observing everything we can observe. Observation is a reliable way of obtaining knowledge, in fact the only reliable way. Faith (that is, pretending what you want to be true is true) is not a reliable way of obtaining knowledge.
See I don't think you got anything from anything posted in this topic. Faith. Faith is not logic and it can't be proved. Proved to me that there is no God. You can't. You only have faith that there isn't. I suggest you stop making this small attemts of putting down others faith. I do not try to force my faith on you so leave my faith alone. Their is a line at which debate and being a plan asshole is made. Your starting to cross that line. Observing will only get you so far, much about this world you can not observe.
That's not really the same thing. I don't believe in the Abrahamic God because I believe it has certain self-contradictory traits. For example, how can it be both omniscient and omnipotent? If it knows everything it's going to do in the future, does it have the power to change it's mind? Does it even have free will if it already knows what it's going to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
But I cannot possibly contradict all the thousands and thousands of different conceptualizations for gods that people have come up with. When I say I don't believe in God I mean it in the same way that I don't believe there's an invisible unicorn in my room. I can't prove there is no invisible unicorn, but it seems so incredibly unlikely that I can rule it out for all practical purposes, especially since there's no evidence to suggest the unicorn is here. Shouldn't the unicorn be knocking things over? Shouldn't God be intervening in our world in measurable ways?
If you don't want to discuss beliefs, feel free to leave the Spirituality forum. But here, we talk about our different worldviews and why we think the way we do. I happen to think that the world would be a much better place if people stopped making shit up and believing in it so fervently. Of course everybody has the right to believe in whatever they want, but that means I have the right to believe that it's stupid to believe in things for which there is no evidence. When you can explain to me the difference between believing in things for which there is no evidence and making shit up (or copying stuff other people have made up), maybe I will let up on this faith stuff. But the two are absolutely indistinguishable.Quote:
I suggest you stop making this small attemts of putting down others faith. I do not try to force my faith on you so leave my faith alone. Their is a line at which debate and being a plan asshole is made. Your starting to cross that line.
What's the point in wasting our time guessing about what things might exist that we can't observe? If we can't observe them, they have no impact whatsoever upon our lives, and there's nothing to suggest they even exist. And when one person pretends that he's right and everybody else is wrong about the unobservable, that is what causes conflict which often turns violent. I just want to prevent that by encouraging people to embrace critical thinking over blind faith.Quote:
Observing will only get you so far, much about this world you can not observe.
You do not do something or care for something because it has no impact on your life. I care for people who have no impact on my life. It is the same thing. Just because it haves no major impact, it does not mean it is less important.
As far as me leaving this forum, no. I know what this froum is for, but you do not only talk about your views you put down others. You have insulted my ideas because they do not fit your way of thinking. You can share your views and still be considerate to others and their views. When you choose to bash others views thats when you become the asshole. You have started to bash my views and others views. Its funny how you said "when one person pretends that he's right and everybody else is wrong" when you are doing the same. You have no proof we are right and we have no proof you are wrong. I still do not say someone is wrong, I will say if I disagree with them and point out my idea but I will keep and opened mind. I have openly said I do not have weither I am wrong but I still have Faith. It never hurts to have faith.
Oh and just because it "should" be doing something, doesn't mean it will.
No, those people do have an effect on your life, or you would not even know of their existence. When I say we shouldn't argue about things which have no impact on our lives, I mean things which really have no impact whatsoever on anybody's life. Like debating the size of a planet nobody can observe in a galaxy too far away to see as anything more than a smear. Nobody would debate the size of a planet that they can't even see, because it's pointless. Similarly, it's pointless to argue whether we reincarnate after death or go to eternal bliss, because there's no evidence that either one is the case. In fact, there's no reason to suggest that consciousness can outlive the brain any more than heartbeat can outlive the heart.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
Even when my views are that religion is a waste of time and needs to be eliminated? I'm always going to offend someone taking that stance, and I don't fucking care. Religion needs to be dealt with, just like all other forms of oppression like racism, sexism, fascism, etc. I am not considerate of the beliefs of racists, sexists or fascists, so why should I tolerate the beliefs of somebody telling me to bow down to the rules of a totalitarian dictator of the universe (God) who they can't even prove exists?Quote:
As far as me leaving this forum, no. I know what this froum is for, but you do not only talk about your views you put down others. You have insulted my ideas because they do not fit your way of thinking. You can share your views and still be considerate to others and their views.
So your open mind acknowledges that it just might be the case that all this faith stuff is bullshit? I highly doubt that.Quote:
When you choose to bash others views thats when you become the asshole. You have started to bash my views and others views. Its funny how you said "when one person pretends that he's right and everybody else is wrong" when you are doing the same. You have no proof we are right and we have no proof you are wrong. I still do not say someone is wrong, I will say if I disagree with them and point out my idea but I will keep and opened mind.
Quite the contrary. Look at all those people whose faith is so strong they go to faith healers instead of real doctors practicing science. That's really harmful. Look at the people whose faith is so strong they feel they have to crash airplanes into buildings to please their God. That's harmful. Religion isn't going to stop killing until we kill it.Quote:
I have openly said I do not have weither I am wrong but I still have Faith. It never hurts to have faith.
So? It's up to you to prove to me that God exists. If there's no evidence for it, I'm going to assume it doesn't exist, like the invisible unicorn.Quote:
Oh and just because it "should" be doing something, doesn't mean it will.
I never once told you anything like that. Please point out where I did? Do not push what others say to you as make it seem like I said it.Quote:
so why should I tolerate the beliefs of somebody telling me to bow down to the rules of a totalitarian dictator of the universe (God) who they can't even prove exists?
Do NOT try and tell me what I think. You have no clue what is in my mind. I have accepted the Idea of no God. I know it is a possiblity. It is my opened mind that makes me able to see this.Quote:
So your open mind acknowledges that it just might be the case that all this faith stuff is bullshit? I highly doubt that.
When I posted what I said, I knew this would be mentioned. Ok, this is hard to explain and hard to understand. I am unable to answer to this because it is not my belief and I know little on this. I should have said faith in God doesn't hurt, not faith in church or religion.Quote:
Quite the contrary. Look at all those people whose faith is so strong they go to faith healers instead of real doctors practicing science. That's really harmful. Look at the people whose faith is so strong they feel they have to crash airplanes into buildings to please their God. That's harmful. Religion isn't going to stop killing until we kill it.
Also, why are you here? You seem far from spiritual.
Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
Are you trying to stop us from having some kind of spiritual idea?
That's what "God" means. "God" = "totalitarian dictator of the universe". He created it, he is responsible for everything inside it, and has absolute control over everything. Nothing would exist without him, therefore everything happens only because he lets it happen and makes it happen. Explain how that is any different from being the totalitarian dictator of the universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
So why do you pretend you believe in God, if you are, as you admit, really an agnostic?Quote:
Do NOT try and tell me what I think. You have no clue what is in my mind. I have accepted the Idea of no God. I know it is a possiblity. It is my opened mind that makes me able to see this.
Faith in God certainly does hurt. Say, for example, I believe in God, and I am diagnosed with cancer. I believe God is a pretty decent guy, and I believe he is all-powerful, so I believe that if I ask him nicely he'll cure my cancer. No need to go to that doctor guy. I can just pray my illness away.Quote:
When I posted what I said, I knew this would be mentioned. Ok, this is hard to explain and hard to understand. I am unable to answer to this because it is not my belief and I know little on this. I should have said faith in God doesn't hurt, not faith in church or religion.
Or say I'm addicted to alcohol, and I believe in God. I join Alcoholics Anonymous, which tells me I need to ask God to get rid of my alcoholism for me. Since there is no God, but I think there is and expect him to fix my problems for me, I keep drinking. Now there are other, non-religious organizations out there which help people overcome alcoholism by encouraging them to take control of their own lives, and they've been quite successful, but AA has no better recovery rate than just trying to quit on your own (5%).
Or say a loved one close to me has died, and I believe in God. So I believe my loved one isn't really dead, but actually living in some afterlife parallel universe or something. I go to a psychic like John Edward to have him "talk" to my dead loved one for me. He does his little talking-to-the-dead trick and pisses all over the precious memories I had with some made up general statements of condolence that I think actually came from beyond the grave.
I'm just trying to give my input into matters regarding religion, which I think are of the utmost importance since the institution of religion is terrorizing the planet and threatening to tear it apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
You have to read what I write not what you want to see. I said I accept the POSSIBILITY. I know it could be but I choose to not believe it. Stop twisting my words.Quote:
So why do you pretend you believe in God, if you are, as you admit, really an agnostic?
Most of this has nothing to do with my beliefs so why are you ranting them to me. Try to keep on my beliefs when you try to disprove them.Quote:
Faith in God certainly does hurt. Say, for example, I believe in God, and I am diagnosed with cancer. I believe God is a pretty decent guy, and I believe he is all-powerful, so I believe that if I ask him nicely he'll cure my cancer. No need to go to that doctor guy. I can just pray my illness away.
Or say I'm addicted to alcohol, and I believe in God. I join Alcoholics Anonymous, which tells me I need to ask God to get rid of my alcoholism for me. Since there is no God, but I think there is and expect him to fix my problems for me, I keep drinking. Now there are other, non-religious organizations out there which help people overcome alcoholism by encouraging them to take control of their own lives, and they've been quite successful, but AA has no better recovery rate than just trying to quit on your own (5%).
Or say a loved one close to me has died, and I believe in God. So I believe my loved one isn't really dead, but actually living in some afterlife parallel universe or something. I go to a psychic like John Edward to have him "talk" to my dead loved one for me. He does his little talking-to-the-dead trick and pisses all over the precious memories I had with some made up general statements of condolence that I think actually came from beyond the grave.
God means many things to people. My mother sees God as a place in mind, my aunt sees God as a hope. God has no true meaning as your putting it.Quote:
That's what "God" means. "God" = "totalitarian dictator of the universe". He created it, he is responsible for everything inside it, and has absolute control over everything. Nothing would exist without him, therefore everything happens only because he lets it happen and makes it happen. Explain how that is any different from being the totalitarian dictator of the universe.
And as for the "I never once told you anything like that. Please point out where I did? Do not push what others say to you as make it seem like I said it." I was refering to bowing down to God. I never said bow down to my lord or anything like that.
So you do not have any spiritual beliefs, yet you come to a forum ment for people with spiritual idea. Seems like your trying to start a fight with people. Religion isn't want terrorizes the world, fighting over who's beliefs (on weither god exists or not, or whoever you believe in) are right. It has to do with religion but religion is not the cause.Quote:
I'm just trying to give my input into matters regarding religion, which I think are of the utmost importance since the institution of religion is terrorizing the planet and threatening to tear it apart.
So you accept the possibility that there is no God, and yet you believe there's a God? How does that work?Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
So you don't believe God cures the diseases of those who pray to him? What use is belief in God then? And what kind of asshole does that, turns down people he could heal in an instant who are begging for mercy?Quote:
Most of this has nothing to do with my beliefs so why are you ranting them to me. Try to keep on my beliefs when you try to disprove them.
So if it's such a fuzzy concept that doesn't have any real concrete meaning, what's the point? That's one of the main reasons I don't believe in God: nobody can ever tell me just what the hell it is. A lot of times it seems saying "I don't believe in God" is like saying "I don't believe in snooglefrumps". It's just a meaningless word, except for those who actually set out a definition, which few people ever do because they're so easily demolished.Quote:
God means many things to people. My mother sees God as a place in mind, my aunt sees God as a hope. God has no true meaning as your putting it.
The very existence of a God means I have no control over my life, since God has absolute control over everything and already knows everything I'm going to do anyways. If there is a God, I have to bow down to it. I have no choice. I am powerless to change the future, since God knows it already. That's a pretty bleak worldview, and I resent the suggestion that I'm just a plaything in your God's toybox with no control whatsoever over my own life.Quote:
And as for the "I never once told you anything like that. Please point out where I did? Do not push what others say to you as make it seem like I said it." I was refering to bowing down to God. I never said bow down to my lord or anything like that.
Its like...ok...this is a curde way of relating it but here goes. 1+1 is 2, but you can also say 1+1 is 11. I can accept the idea that it has to outcomes but I will always choose one outcome, the 2. Its the same as the possiblity of God or not. I can see both but I will always choose one. This may not make sence but its the best I can do.Quote:
So you accept the possibility that there is no God, and yet you believe there's a God? How does that work?
I choose to believe that God wants us to advance ourselves. God do not want us to relie on the powers that God holds. God wants us to achive. This is my belief. Others will not agree but I'm not others.Quote:
So you don't believe God cures the diseases of those who pray to him? What use is belief in God then? And what kind of asshole does that, turns down people he could heal in an instant who are begging for mercy?
We still and may forever not understand God (keeping in mine that their could be). It will be something that can never be fully explained. Whats the point in anything? Many things, we as humans do, have no real point, but we still do them. The reason no one can tell you what God is, is that no one knows.Quote:
So if it's such a fuzzy concept that doesn't have any real concrete meaning, what's the point? That's one of the main reasons I don't believe in God: nobody can ever tell me just what the hell it is. A lot of times it seems saying "I don't believe in God" is like saying "I don't believe in snooglefrumps". It's just a meaningless word, except for those who actually set out a definition, which few people ever do because they're so easily demolished.
You mean destiny. I do not believe we have a choosen path that we have to walk down. I also do not believe God can see what will be. You can choose your future, you do have free will, but once again this is how I see it. Unknown for sure but it is still my ideas. I can not prove it and you can not dismiss it. Someday, maybe, we will have the answers, but as for now we live and we hope for more. I am hoping for many things, love, accpence, peace, happiness for friends and family and everyone and I hope my children will live a good life.Quote:
The very existence of a God means I have no control over my life, since God has absolute control over everything and already knows everything I'm going to do anyways. If there is a God, I have to bow down to it. I have no choice. I am powerless to change the future, since God knows it already. That's a pretty bleak worldview, and I resent the suggestion that I'm just a plaything in your God's toybox with no control whatsoever over my own life.
yeah, MudFu, god doesnt help us, in hopes that we will learn to help ourselves.
according to the bible, which i hate using as reference, we are created in god's image, so if that's the case, our lives must largly mirror god's own; awakening without knowing a thing-being born without any knowing outside your immediate perceptions
humans and god start the same, so why arent humans ending the same?
well for one, god is endless, so too must be humanity. but we are not, because we are weak minded, and die.
god isnt weak minded, god never died before (dispite nietchze [sp?] says god is dead :D), and god is omnipotent, yet humans refuse to believe they can be too, humans refuse to even try :(
not all, of course, but far too many to permit those of us who DO try from succeding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F L E S H
You see you come and pose your thoughts on the bible but yet you have no idea what the scriptures actually say!....................why debate about Christ or the scriptures when you don't even know whats in the good book,your coming to a a gun fight with a tooth pick?.................So allow me to drop the ball on you here......Look up EXODUS....author Moses!.....
Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Take note of verse 24! lol.............then Jesus in Matthew actually picks out that part of the old testement and corrects it! and he points to the untruth of moses rather then moses himself,other words he corrects moses in a nice way!........................
read......Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.....
See the difference ! between Christ and Moses! moses spoke of rath and the law! Jesus spoke of nothing but Love!...............Jesus could have said you have heard ,or have read that moses says a eye for a eye,but he didn't he said you have heard it said!...........other words treating moses teaching as a false rumor! then he corrects the false truth!.............You should research the scriptures though before attempting to qoute or argue agaist a Christian.... us Christian actually read the bible!
Well at least someone else is in this conversation now...its been a long time of just two of us talking back and forward. But I think this topic will slow down now, or else everything will be repeated. Not much new can be said.
maybe i should read back thoroughly, i always have something to say which no one wants to hear :D
edit: naw, i have said what i can say, im just ignored too easily :D
No, sorry, that doesn't make any sense. 1 + 1 can never equal 11. Omnipotence and omniscience can never exist in the same being. No matter how you look at it, 2 + 2 = 4, and there is no God.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
So where's the evidence that God exists? That is to say, what is it about our world that you experienced that caused you to believe in God? In your world, he just doesn't interact with the physical universe in any way. That certainly seems to best fit the evidence, at least. But then, how can you state that God exists, if there isn't anything in our physical universe which suggests that he does? How did the knowledge of God get from his protective barrier beyond the event horizon of our universe to your brain? Unless you're just making shit up, that is.Quote:
I choose to believe that God wants us to advance ourselves. God do not want us to relie on the powers that God holds. God wants us to achive. This is my belief. Others will not agree but I'm not others.
Wait...you're saying that nobody knows what God is. So, how can you know it exists? What is it that you are claiming exists? I can't just say I believe in snooglefrumps but nobody knows what snooglefrumps are. That's a meaningless statement. So either tell me something about what God is, or just admit that you're really an atheist underneath it all.Quote:
We still and may forever not understand God (keeping in mine that their could be). It will be something that can never be fully explained. Whats the point in anything? Many things, we as humans do, have no real point, but we still do them. The reason no one can tell you what God is, is that no one knows.
So how can God be all-powerful, if he doesn't have the power to see into the future? Hell, even humans can form vague ideas about what's going to happen in the future.Quote:
You mean destiny. I do not believe we have a choosen path that we have to walk down. I also do not believe God can see what will be.
And where did you get that idea? Oh that's right, you pulled it right out of your ass. Please, if you care about the truth in the slightest, try to back your beliefs up with arguments or revise them to better fit the evidence. Just stating something does not make it so.Quote:
You can choose your future, you do have free will, but once again this is how I see it. Unknown for sure but it is still my ideas.
What is there to dismiss? You tell me there's a God, but you don't know what God is, and you're open to the possibility that this thing that you can't even identify might not even be there. Of course it's impossible to dismiss such a vague statement.Quote:
I can not prove it and you can not dismiss it.
You tell me we have something called "free will", but you refuse to define that too. If we look into the matter hard enough, we find that free will is just as meaningless a concept. From what we can observe, people's behavior is dependent upon various factors: what they've learned from previous experiences, the structure of their brains, their emotional state, their state of consciousness, and so forth, whose physical reality can be shown. So what is "free will"? People say that free will is when something makes decisions for us independent of these phenomena, "on its own" somehow. But what, then, does it base its decisions on, if not for those phenomena? Does it choose decisions at random? Nobody seems to be claiming that. The answer is that free will does not exist; our behavior is based on a range of phenomena in the brain, ultimately derived from our genes, our experiences, and our current state of mind.
It is certain that we will know more in the future. But knowledge comes from science, not from faith. Knowledge comes from observation about the world, and forming theories that fit those observations. That is the only way to obtain knowledge. Knowledge cannot be found by throwing logic out the window and making shit up.Quote:
Someday, maybe, we will have the answers, but as for now we live and we hope for more.
I hope for the same things, and I know that peace on Earth can only be achieved once faith is defeated and replaced with rational, critical thought. We have to keep an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall out. Be receptive to new ideas, but don't believe in them unless they can show some evidence.Quote:
I am hoping for many things, love, accpence, peace, happiness for friends and family and everyone and I hope my children will live a good life.
Logical your right. But if you look at it this way take the 1 from the first number and the 1 from the second number and combin them you have 11. It is possible but it is not logical.Quote:
No, sorry, that doesn't make any sense. 1 + 1 can never equal 11.
You keep asking me the same questions and I keep telling you the same thing. Over and over I repeated myself. It is my belief and my idea. I am not stating facts. Stop asking me something over and over plz.
All right, if you want to base your beliefs on things which aren't fact, that's fine for you. But I prefer to believe in things which are true.
I think it's your notion of having access to "truth" in some special way that is causing all the misunderstandings in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
I for one, wish that christian fundamentalists would realise that there are other paths to truth, rather than just through faith.
But I'll admit the scientists do a fairly bad job of admitting that at its most basic level, all of science is resting on assumptions about our world.
So it really does seem like intepretation can be everything sometimes.
Regardless of what side of the debate you come down on, you always seem to reduce to a claim that science is infallible, or that it has given us "truth". This is just like a believer claiming "god". Exactly the same actually. It stops the ability to continue having a conversation...
Unless you can show me there's some reason you get to have "truth"
I don't claim to have all the "truth", but what I am sure of is that the only way to truth is observation. What other possible way of knowing things is there? "Faith" just doesn't make any sense. If it's not based on observation, it's obviously based on making shit up. There's simply no other way of coming up with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
I wish they would realize that faith is not a path to truth. How can it be? Making a dogma out of things which have no evidence for them can only lead us astray from the truth.Quote:
I for one, wish that christian fundamentalists would realise that there are other paths to truth, rather than just through faith.
Sure, but these are fairly uncontestable assumptions. The assumption that the universe tends to follow straightforward rules, for example. Or the assumption that the universe exists. These sorts of things are based on experience, as is all of science. Every theory in science needs to be able to be tested, and there needs to be some way to falsify it. That is not the case in "faith", where you just have to accept things as true, no questions asked. You don't need proof or evidence, you just assume whatever you want to be true is true, or you assume whatever your priest and your holy book say is true is true.Quote:
But I'll admit the scientists do a fairly bad job of admitting that at its most basic level, all of science is resting on assumptions about our world.
Would you be prepared to provide an interpretation of the universe in which science doesn't work? In which there is no gravity or no electrons or no natural selection? Science reveals things about the universe which are verifiable through experience. Faith "reveals" things about the universe which just have to be taken on hearsay.Quote:
So it really does seem like intepretation can be everything sometimes.
Note that science is not a thing, it is not a body of knowledge. It is a way of thinking. Namely, it is the method of looking at the universe, finding theories which fit the available evidence, and rigorously testing them to try to find what most closely approximates the truth. When some generally accepted piece of information is shown to be not in accord with the evidence at hand, it is thrown out or revised so that our understanding fits in with what we know. It isn't perfect, but it's by far the best way of understanding the universe that we have developed.Quote:
Regardless of what side of the debate you come down on, you always seem to reduce to a claim that science is infallible, or that it has given us "truth".
Huh?Quote:
This is just like a believer claiming "god". Exactly the same actually. It stops the ability to continue having a conversation...
I don't claim to know everything about the "truth" that there is to know. But my method of trying to understand the universe — science — is far more reliable than "faith". Science is based on observation. Faith is based on...what? Guesswork? Self-deception? Deliberate lies? I don't know, but if it's not based on observation, it's not based in reality.Quote:
Unless you can show me there's some reason you get to have "truth"
To the people of faith who are getting all riled up:
That's the freaking point! We want you to get mad, we want to provoke you to thought, we ultimately want you shed your childlike fantasy of a big daddy upstairs who'll give you some goodies after you die, but only if you've been a good boy during your life!
Sounds a bit like Santa Claus to me, and when did you stop believing in him, when you were 10-11-12? I wonder why don't people stop believe in Christianity at that same age? well, probably because of the big-ass churches that are around the world filled with sexually-repressed old men in robes who think they're always right.
Polymirize, there's a difference between empiricism and science. It's not a question of priests vs. scientists. There are other people too. The hardcore scientific view is just as harmful as religious ascetism. That being said, the answer does not lie "somewhere in the middle." But I'm not gonna go into that here, Nietzsche wrote a whole book on the subject called The Gay Science (Gay as in happy....).
I think this post would have been better if you posted it after someone showed sighs of anger, like when I said that Oneironaut was crossing the line of becoming an asshole. Anyways, nice way of putting something so blunt. You guys have no understanding of what we (as in people who have faith) believe. Not all people believe in God but they still have faith in certian things. Anyways I stand by what I said before. This is a spiritual forum. You guys are not spiritual. You are protesting our spirituality. You don't really have much of a place in this forum.Quote:
To the people of faith who are getting all riled up:
That's the freaking point! We want you to get mad, we want to provoke you to thought, we ultimately want you shed your childlike fantasy of a big daddy upstairs who'll give you some goodies after you die, but only if you've been a good boy during your life!
Sounds a bit like Santa Claus to me, and when did you stop believing in him, when you were 10-11-12? I wonder why don't people stop believe in Christianity at that same age? well, probably because of the big-ass churches that are around the world filled with sexually-repressed old men in robes who think they're always right.
Polymirize, there's a difference between empiricism and science. It's not a question of priests vs. scientists. There are other people too. The hardcore scientific view is just as harmful as religious ascetism. That being said, the answer does not lie "somewhere in the middle." But I'm not gonna go into that here, Nietzsche wrote a whole book on the subject called The Gay Science (Gay as in happy....).
I grew up on Gay Lane.Quote:
Originally Posted by F L E S H
That's a pretty good thought, a big daddy upstairs who'll give you some goodies after you die.
We may never need to find God and that may be His goal. People say they "find" God, but if they actually found Him, they would cease to exist.
And not come back.
I didn't write that sooner because I don't spend all day at my PC...Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
Well, it's a Spirituality forum, and that implies that we can debate issues. What would be the point of a forum if everyone says "god is good" "yup, he's a cool dude" "Hooray for Jesus!"?
If it bothers you people have different opinions than yours, don't go on the internet...
But what if there's nothing to find?Quote:
Originally Posted by beachguy in thongs
Man you are turly offended by everything it seems. And you get snappy over little things. If you believe you have to believe in god to be Spiritual then your wrong. Buddha's beliefs has nothing really to do with God, just enlightnment. Not everyone here who has faith believes in god. Not everyone who believes in God believes in jesus. You are highly untolerable, and you are to snappy to talk to. You can not even take anything said in this without being insulting. You are now one of the people whos post I will skip for now on. Good day. And feel free to make snotty remarks now.Quote:
Well, it's a Spirituality forum, and that implies that we can debate issues. What would be the point of a forum if everyone says "god is good" "yup, he's a cool dude" "Hooray for Jesus!"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by F L E S H
Well you never brought me to anger!,infact you brought me to be more humble in a sense!,but while you tryed to anger us as you said! you made yourself look foolish and probably won't have anyone take you seriouse,you talked as if you knew the scriptures but yet doubted that moses said a eye for a eye infact you acted like there was no such thing mentioned,but now you want us to listen to your great words of wisdom? ..........Concerning such topics perhaps you should either retire from talking about such things or actually go do some reading then come back a little more prepared!....seriously dude to come into a debate and say moses never said those things was self absorbed,your so ignorant your prepared to argue without knowing ?????...interesting consept lol.
if this post seems ignorant that was not my goal but perhaps it was the goal to reveil to others that when it comes to this subject you are ignorant.....peace.
You are officially an idiot. I made one little mistake, and if that's the only thing you have against me, that's pretty sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow Man
My goal is not to make people angry, my goal is to provoke thought. Man, my ignorance meter is off the charts.
You and Mellow Man need to take classes in reading comprehension.Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFu
I'm not angry at all, I've got nothing to be angry about. The only one being snotty here is you.
It seems you guys can't make a good point without resorting to personal attacks... That speaks volumes....
That's what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by F L E S H
You did get the wrong idea when I said that. To tell you the truth, I don't know where that idea came from, probably because there's been a lot of college threads.
Flesh, how did we get here?
What happened 13.7 billion (to the 12th power) years ago?
the creation of earth began around that time, starting with the blueprints, which took several years to fine tune.
Its a big mistake when infact your debating the bible or what not!......Quote:
Originally Posted by F L E S H