I reckon when it's really the time of Armaggedon, God will send us a pamphlet or something.
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I reckon when it's really the time of Armaggedon, God will send us a pamphlet or something.
That was a 'special' post. Thanks for making me good about myself, because when I read people talking like that, I say, "Wow, he quoted Christ!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow Man
(That last sentence was torn between two ideas flying out of my head at the same time.)
what these natural disasters are a sign of, is that we are fucking up our environment with all this pollution causing sever erosion which is fucking with the earth. the erosion is probably responsible for the abnormal change in weather patterns not just the regular cyclical weather occurrences since the earth started. maybe if we stopped fucking up
also, new orleans is flooded because it was built under sea level and the drainage systems were primitive, and none of the buildings were made durable enough.
Time is outside of God? If time logically precedes God, that means there are aspects of the universe that were not created by God. If God has to follow the rules of time, he can't be all-powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mellow Man
If God is not outer space, then where is he? He must be somewhere, and if it's not in outer space then where on our planet can we find him? The answer is, nowhere. Ever since we haven't been able to find physical evidence of "the heavens", of "spirits" and of "God", Christians have stopped believing that these things are real physical entities and have started believing they are actually in some weird transcendental parallel universe that we can't detect, which means for all practical purposes that they don't exist (since if they cannot interact with our universe in any measurable way, they must be outside the event horizon of the universe and thus we cannot possibly know anything about them).
Here you can find out all about the holes in the "parallel universe of soul stuff" theory: http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/theolo...la_la_land.htm
LOL, God's thoughtful like that. "RSVP not necessary - GOD" LMAO.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
Ah, well this is more then what I expected in reply... but i'll do my best. Anyway, from what I see the question that seems to bother some of you most is the fact you say "God kills innocent people" and therefor is capable of evil things. The other thing was what... How can we tell which natural disasters are punishment and which are not? Well, let me explain it this way. (Sorry for my poor explanation before, I was trying to get all my thoughts out at once..) Anyway, Natural disasters are a combonation of 3 things.
1. Punishment
2. To show us the impact Sin had on creation
3. To get people to talk to God
First explanation
Punishment of "innocent" people does not exist. Its punishment of sinners, which we all are. We're all guilty in his eyes, because all of us have sinned. You must realize, the fact we arn't all killed this very instant is a blessing. All of us deserve to die, so whats all this mumbo jumbo I hear about God doing evil? Its that people simply look at things the wrong way.
Second explanation
Like I said before, the act of man sinning had effect on all creation (in our universe)
Third explanation
A lot of people go through their lives not thinking about God at all. You notice when something like a tornado happens, lots of people will seek God (wether it be seriously or just a passing thing) but it gets people to talk to him. He allows problems to occure in our life when we turn away from him.
Well, I'm sorry for sounding so uptight and whatnot but God isn't to be taken lightly. Please, don't be so quick to try and debunk Gods existance. Why try so passionatly to prove him wrong? I don't understand why some people don't even give it a chance... It all makes sense. The big picture that is, questions like "why doesn't God just kill us all and start over" doesn't explain why God can't exist. And yes, as I saw mentioned before, it does boil down to something we just can't understand. And think about it, if God is real then how can we expect to?
Another thing I just want to stress is that, don't just take this as another "Blind christian rant" and that I can't possibly know what i'm talking about. Please, at least treat me as a human.
Well, we humans didn't choose to all be sinners by nature, did we? No, if God created us and we are all sinners by nature, it must be God's fault for the design flaw, and thus all sinners would be really innocent.
I gave the idea of God a chance. I really did. For the first 13 or 14 years of my life I was a Christian. But I failed to find any sign of God. He failed to answer my prayers. He failed to show even the slightest sign of his existence. This, combined with the wacky tall tales and outright contradictions found in the Bible (see http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...a/by_name.html) caused me to reject the Christian dogma much of my society expected me to unquestioningly accept. Believe me, this was not an easy or impulsive decision (it's hard to tell your parents you no longer believe in their deity). It involved a lot of careful thought and a long period of trying and subsequently rejecting various rationalizations for God's existence. But in the end it was apparent that Christianity had as much proof of its veracity as any other religion did, i.e. none at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachguy in thongs
Well my friend I am glad it lifted your heart! .Jesus says: Do not let your heart be troubled" A day will come when I shall wipe away every tear from your eye and you shall cry nomore!..................It's true my friend before the world was created you were already born! Jesus stated clearly,I have created you before the world was! therefore you always were!..........
by the way my friend the qoute"I mentioned earlier was also followed by another statement from Jesus"Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning:that one will know the end! and will not taste death!.....what does this mean? the person looking for the end should really be looking for the beginning and the beginning is with Christ! so if you find Christ you have already found the End as well! therefore you won't taste death because you are alive in him!......................then Jesus continue's and says"Congradulations to the one who come into being before coming into being!?????..........what the Lord means here is congradulations to the one who found me in the beginning because I too will be there at the end as well! so therefore by coming into Christ is coming into spirit before actually dieing and coming into spirit...other words be in spirit even in this life!.....for your true life which we believe is the end is actually the beginning !.........from spirit to spirit with Christ!..........
Thanks, MellowMan, I'll come back after and read that again and absorb more of it into my brain.
The insinuation that every man, woman and child has done things so horrible that they are all deserving of THE DEATH PENALTY (but God just happens to be nice enough to spare us) is so comtemptuous of humanity I don't even know how to describe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokujin X
Perhaps my suspicions were right. Christianity, in proclaiming an imaginary being as superior to man, makes people begin to attribute all good traits of man to God's wonderful creation, and all his negative creation to his innate evilness, thus propagating a very profound hatred of humanity.
You're trying to tell me, that there's this guy in the sky, who decided one day to do a little experiment and make these little creatures with free will. But oh no, all of them are sinning! Gotta punish the sinners!Quote:
All of us deserve to die, so whats all this mumbo jumbo I hear about God doing evil? Its that people simply look at things the wrong way.
What the hell did God EXPECT?! He can't get mad at us for sinning. He should have known we would all sin. He is all-knowing, right? He created everything and has a divine plan for everything right? So he already knows everything my "free will" is going to do (what kind of free will is that anyways, if all my actions are already programmed into God's mind right now?).
Besides, it doesn't matter if I give God a chance right now. According to the Bible, I'm going to Hell anyways. Watch me guarantee myself eternal damnation:
First, I will direct you to three exerpts from the Bible. They are:
Matthew 12:31-32
Mark 3:29Quote:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Luke 12:10Quote:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Now, all I need to do to guarantee myself eternal damnation is blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. Fuck the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does not exist; it is a fabricated lie of the Christian dogma. There. I'm going to Hell and a million Jesuses can't save me now.Quote:
But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Once again, read what I wrote before.Quote:
Originally Posted by ermitonto
"Why did God even allow us to screw up so badly? Well because if he had not, and made us incapable of making descisions, then we would be drones, robots, with no free will. So giving us that free will, we were able to do what we want."
Were we damned to fall in sin to begin with? Perhaps, surly God knew what we would choose. Its possible (which I can't with 100% surness) that God created us in this physical world so that we can by choice, overcome sin and be reborn into the perfect human later. (In the new Heaven and Earth)
It's unfortunate that this list of "contradictions" convinced you to quit. Most of them are just commonly misunderstood (ie: Why so many people find it necessary to go to Church) Either you were unlucky enough to grow up christians who cannot answer questions, or you simply did not care to try anymore. God works in diffrent ways and I know that you have been told that before. But, the bible also does explain that not everyone could be saved (which would seem like another "contradiction") because how a person can truly believe in him, the same goes for the opposite. Absolutly despise him, or rather the christians which they can see. This is our choice, it's not like its impossible for everyone to be saved but it is pretty much impossible by works of man at this point.
YES! We are deserving of this death penalty, but thoes who believe in him do not truly die. I don't know what you can't grasp about this but its really not that hard. We were created to be perfect, and since we are not (by our choice) we need to be saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by ermitonto
What did God expect? Exactually what happend, and if you paid any attention you would have realized that our ultimate goal is to be in the perfect new Heaven and Earth. Sinless, the way we should have chose in the beginning. Your actions arn't "programmed" into God's head, but he does know what you will do and how you will live your life. Predestination is better explained by a wise man I know, but I can do my best.
And again, I cannot tell you how many time this one is misundestood. No, your not "damned to go to Hell" as of now because of your blasphemes, every sin is forgivable. This is almost comparable to the 10 commandments. Do christians have to obey the 10 commandments? Of course not. It is a good scource of guidelines but invalid at this point in time. Much like the "Unforgivable sin". He gave commands like these to a certain group of people, and even to them today this rule does not apply. Ever since Jesus died for our sins, we are only expected to follow 2 rules.
??Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments? (Matt 22:37-40). ??This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome? (1 John 5:3).
So in retrospect, all we have to do is follow these commands. I can agree aswell, they arn't burdensome.
Who is to say what a 'sin' is? The man himself, of course, no one else.
I bet sin in His eyes is perpetual, and I think he's come to terms with it.
People say, "What would Jesus do?"
But, "What would God do?" If you were God, you'd smoke weed.
And yet, if God knows all my actions before I ever do them, how is it that I'm not a drone or a robot? How can free will possibly exist? It's one of the endless contradictions in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokujin X
Perhaps? If God knew, then the answer is YES. Not perhaps. God MADE us sinners. He fucked up his model.Quote:
Were we damned to fall in sin to begin with? Perhaps, surly God knew what we would choose.
Then why doesn't he clearly outline what sin is and what sin isn't? Why only provide it in an old book with wacky stories of witches, demons, ghosts, talking animals, pregnant virgins, and a God who doesn't care about all the slavery going on but hates anybody who is gay (...something they don't even have any control over, anyways. What a caring God, punishing people for the way they're born :rolleyes: ).Quote:
Its possible (which I can't with 100% surness) that God created us in this physical world so that we can by choice, overcome sin and be reborn into the perfect human later. (In the new Heaven and Earth)
It's unfortunate you don't see the glaring errors in there, and that you must find a rationalization for each and every one because you believe so fervently that the book must be true, throwing logic out the window. The book was so haphazardly thrown together it's funny. Sorry, but the editors of the Bible weren't able to comb out all their fuck-ups. Please, do tell me how the following verses could possibly be reconciled into something that is logically consistent:Quote:
It's unfortunate that this list of "contradictions" convinced you to quit.
Acts 10:36: "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I [Jesus] am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Joshua 7:1: "For Achan, the son of Carmi ... took of the accursed thing."
Just 23 verses later we find...Joshua 7:24: "And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah..."
Exodus 20:13: "Thou shalt not kill."
1 Samuel 15:2-3: "Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare him not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
What a wonderful, caring God who ORDERS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE TO COMMIT GENOCIDE! :mad: :mad: :mad: If this creature were real, he would be deserving of the worst kind of hatred.
Oh, and don't forget the overwhelming scientific evidence that Noah's Flood never happened and that the Earth is billions of years old, both of which contradict very well-known stories of the Bible. I can drag out the evidence if you want, but I'll assume you're already familiar with it.
Now, if we already know some parts of the Bible are just bullshit, how can one rationalize believing with absolute unshakable faith in the other parts? You can't just pick and choose.
I don't particularily hold a lot of faith in a doctrine that claims to know all the answers to the most complex issues of the universe, nicely wrapped up in a simplistic explanation of "and so god said let there be..."
EDIT: also in a book (the bible) that was written approx. 600 years after jesus, translated from word of mouth.
1. Free will is how we sinned in the first place! I feel as if i'm explaining the SAME thing over, and over and over again! Does this make sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by ermitonto
2. He didn't screw up anything, with our free will we choose to sin, we screwed up. He made us excellent in every way, and we were given a chance to open our eyes to sin, because if we had not the chance we would be robots. Does this not make sense?
3. He didn't clearly outline everything we should and should not do. Your sins are between you and God, no one else can decide what you did was wrong. The view that people are born homosexual, is only an excuse for people like you. It's simply not true and the bible explains that. It may say that God despises homosexuality, but not any more now then other sins aswell. They arn't born that way and even genetics tell us so. Identical twins are exactually the same, the same way a clone would be. But, one twin is normal and is hetrosexual, the other could be homosexual.... so hmm... its all sin. Its not the way we were born. Does this not make sense?
I almost can't believe you are willing to discredit the entire bible because you can't possibly imagin why death would be a good/reasonable thing. As far as Christianity being a bloody religion, it is. But it is uniquely a bloody religion. Contrary to bloodless religions, it takes sin seriously, indicating that God takes sin seriously, and gives a death penalty for it. Sin is not a small matter. It is the simple sin of pride that turned Lucifer into a demon. It was the simple sin of jealousy that caused Cain to slay Abel, etc. And in Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, they believed the deceiver over a good and loving God, choosing to rebel against His love and denying the goodness of His character. Christianity is a bloody religion because it views sin as a holy God views it...seriously. Does this not make sense?
If none of these things make sense to you then we are going to continulessly try and prove one another wrong and most likely on the same topics, over and over. Its almost pointless, but understand. I will no longer try and convince anyone that God is real, but answer questions to thoes who want to know. Another thing is that read what I have to say in full. If you read what I had to say then there should be no need for the same questions being asked. Honestly, I don't know why this is so hard. Look at it in these terms, if i'm wrong, what happens? Nothing. If you're wrong, what happens? You missing the only opprotunity to live for eternity (which is a good thing) simply because you decided to deny God. Its an easy choice if you ask me...
I think the church is just another control mechanism and i don't realy care about the bible unless for some heavy reading.
There is no "scientific evidence" that Noah's Flood never happend. And the Earth being billions of years old? Do you think that God would overlook something like that? Let me make a small comparison. Adam was created and looked what, lets say 25. When in actuallity, he was not even a day old. The Earth is the same way. One thing you don't seem to want to give up is this "evidence" that the bible is full of bull. Its not true, either passages are misintrupritated, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ermitonto
Okay, I see you are a Creationist too. I guess I'll end the argument here then, since I know your type never accepts logic or reason or peer-reviewed science or those other things that advance mankind's knowledge. Oh well, it was nice and surprisingly easy arguing with you while the debate lasted.
"misintrupritated".
That was probably the smartest thing Kokujin X has said in this whole thread. :)
He's just imitating his Creationist brethren. Don't misunderestimate those Fundies' language skills.
haha good one, ertimonto
actually meant, stoker, but that's funny, ertimonto u2
i'm determined to find a question you can't answer just by writing it off with some bullshit excuse. your god is all knowing, can tell the future can change the past, can create and kill. so, with that being said, how the hell does he hold a grudge against human kind becasue two of HIS creations did something he ALREADY knew was going to happen? and we're sinners by nature becasue those 10 commandments are perfectly worded so that at some point you will sin. lets take the prime example 'do not covet your neighbor's wife (or sometimes says goods). you CANNOT help what you want, it' is a want, a desire an uncontrollable emotion 'god made us' so he made us covet, he gave us that trait. also, if god gave us freewill, why does he punish us when we exercise it, freewill is the quite the biggest oxy-moron i've heard coming from your god yet, he gave us freewill, yet he DEMANDS that we worship him, and follow his other 9 bullshit rules. if someone is demanding of something, how can they give you freewill? he doesn't try to encouage, he doesn't say 'i'm the only real god out of the religions and i want you to realize this and worship me, but i will not be angry if you worship others' (which would be true freewill) he says 'worship me or suffer forever'
and btw if it is due to 'misinterprutation' how is it true, truth is simply that, truth. if it is not correct then it is not truth. but since everyone seems to follow this god so blindly you refuse to ever listen to logic, i hope what i believe happens when you die (walk the earth in a spirit form for eternity) that i see you, so i can laugh at you for wasting all these years worshipping something that is not even there.
as to this, why would a deity that is incapable of making contact to humans be throwing natural disasters around to get people to talk to him? doesn't that just seem really retarded?Quote:
Anyway, Natural disasters are a combonation of 3 things.
1. Punishment
2. To show us the impact Sin had on creation
3. To get people to talk to God
Quote:
Originally Posted by God
"if god gave us freewill, why does he punish us when we exercise it"
I'd like to know the answer to that also. That seems like one of the most fundamental questions we should be asking. If God gave use free will, why does he punish us for exercising that free will? Well said, slipknot. :)
I wish and (gasp) pray that all fundies and creationists since they hate science so much would go live in caves without medicine and only clubs to hunt with (although even that could be argued scientific....). Since they reject science and demand we accept their whole book they should wholly reject science as well...
All I have to say is:Quote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill."
-N. Peart
Kokujin, you have no ability to think for yourself and look at things critically. You're a little child, afraid to look out upon the world and realize what's REALLY there. I postes this quote by Nietzsche in another thread, but I think it bears repeating here, since it's very relevant to the current debate...
"The Four Errors.
Man has been reared by his errors: first he never saw himself other than imperfectly, second he attributed to himself imaginary qualities, third he felt himself in a false order of rank with animal and nature, fourth he continually invented new tables of values and for a time took each of them to be eternal and unconditional, so that now this, now that human drive and state took first place and was, as a consequence of this evaluation, ennobled. If one deducts the effects of these four errors, one has also deducted away humanity, humaneness and 'human dignity'."
Truer words have seldom been spoken.
well, obviously no one can answer my question. oh well i expected some bullshit vauge answer that completely avoided the question anyways, it's what christians are good at.
Of course, they are signs. God IS what happened to us. The core of the Earth is as hot as God gets.
for some reason this just makes me picture "God" in a school girl uniform in compromising positions or something :DQuote:
Originally Posted by beachguy in thongs
I very much agree with comments above.. I dont think its a sign of nothing but the human abuse of mother nature and one another.. I think a 1000 years is prolly like 1 second in god's time zone..Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdevious
Wait another year to hear about death from the water that was pumped out of NewOlreans and into surrounding waterways.... Im sure someone will say this is god's way to punish those who didnt die first time around.. I think biggest victim in life is god for he is always accused of the very things he never does..
God is all powerful and all knowing; would he give you life to punish you later for the very things he knew you'd do? All these disasters are nothing but that; disaster - all disasters are man made...
I took Religious Studies in college, at St. Rose, and I learned, and believe, that religion was created through language. The sky became personalized. So through this, I believe in evolution. Adam and Eve and the apple of Sin is a parable.
That's probably one of the most sensible things I've read on this thread :DQuote:
Originally Posted by beachguy in thongs
Damn, man, the whole Bible is one big, long fucking parable! :D
I wouldn't say that, a lot of the stuff is taken verbatim.
Like, "Let there be life!"
I know a reporter who was there.
haha awesome