Will 150w HPS outperform 372w of T5HO?

Whoo, wait a min there baby. Moma uses CFL's for side lighting. Specifically the GE REVEAL 20 watters. CFL's put out a little more uv than other fluorescents. 20watts puts out 1200 lumens, & the REVEALS are very warm at 2500K. Mixing the two make the plants happy! Sometimes I run a 4', 2 tube shoplight up the middle between 2 rows of plants; laying on its back as underlighting, but that takes a lot of space. Now I'll only be using cfl's as supplement. At 2500K, I think reveal cfls help beef up the smaller lower buds more than straight tube flourescent underlighting. A lot of lumens in a sm packagefrom these little guys. :) :) :)

You know, you could sidelight one side with the t5s & the other with a few cfls for a comparison. That would be interesting. If I have two rows of plants, I underlight between the rows where they would otherwise be shaded, but because I keep short plants, it actually lights the sides between the rows. Google 'parabolic plant growth' sometime. Think you'll find it interesting. I prune the lower part of my plants. Then I prune out the smaller branches that wouldn't produce much. That way, all the side/underlighting really gets put to use & the plants energies can focus on making the remaining buds plumper. I like it when all those prunings are big enough to clone. :) I like cloning. Saves so much time.
-- I worked on my cabinet a little today. What ever I could get done that didn't require going outside & playing with electric in the rain. I was gluing & screwing a sawmill slat to the ceiling to attach the lights to. And I dropped the damned board right on my head, glue in my hair, screw hole in my scalp. You know, sometimes I really need a helper. Then I could drop boards on somebody else's head! I would have been fine, but my damned nose started running. I had to wipe it, but I let go with the wrong hand! That gorilla wood glue was hell getting out of my hair, so if the screws don't hold, that glue surely will! You know, now that I think about it. I had the drill in one hand, & wipped my nose with the other... humm................. :) :) :) ouch!

I went way back & looked at your pics. I just noticed something.... Mine are stacked on books too! Hahaha! :)

Hahaha...whatever is handy! Those are auto manuals for cars I don't own anymore Mama catbuds, gotta make use of stuff I got lying around. :)
Hmmmm....so use the CFL's on the sides? I think maybe the HPS plants are the ones that need the help though...Lol There's a thought, I should add CFL's to them to make it more "even".
Those girls sure are thirsty! About a quart a day for each of the 4. I have been giving them H2O and Terra Flores 2-2-4 every 3rd day. They seem to be doing well, though I will change things up in the next round. FF Oceanic soil will be my media of choice, gotta get off the Black Hills Gold fungus Gnat crap....Rookie!

Ahhhh, the fungus gnats! That's what happens when soil is packaged too wet & stored improperly. Probably not sterilized/pasteurized well either. Fox farm products are quality. Never had or heard of that problem with them. Just don't use ocean forest untill plants are no longer in seedling stage, use happy frog (gentle enough to start seeds in) untill they're in rapid veg growth, then transplant to ocean forest. I don't use nutes untill the plants show signs they need them. These soils are very well ballanced. Big Bloom occasionally, light on the nutes. It was good timing for me to find a store where fox farms is always available, since I can't turn a compost heap anymore. But I Do want another earthworm farm. The ones you can buy now require very little labor! :) :) :)

What are Earthworm castings anyway? Poop?? I'm confused about 'nutes too...I thought things like my Terra Flores or Big Bloom were 'nutes? Damn, for a guy who has done a lot of reading, I don't seem to know some of the basics!
Good thing they are "weeds". Lol

Fungus gnats. I had them pop up a few weeks ago when I was overwatering. I adjusted my watering routine and installed blue sticky cards at the rim of each pot. Now the only gnats I see are the ones stuck to the cards. I've heard people complain about FFof having gnats, but those things are everywhere. If conditions are right they will appear no matter what kind of soil you use. Earthworm castings are indeed poop! The worm's gut is filled with bacteria that break down organics in the soil. The poop is loaded with bio-available stuff. Assuming I hinted strongly enough, I may be getting a worm-casting factory for Christmas! If not, I'm going to build one.

Chromophore, good luck on your xmas gift. Leaving catalogs lying around open to the earthworm farm pics might work! Yep! Earthworm poop is is awesome shit, literally!
-- Big Bloom is a nute, just not your typical high npk heavy feeding. Minerals, bio-nutes, trace elements in wide diversity, but not over powering. Its almost more of a 'tonic' than anything. ALWAYS use it at transplanting. Its a great root booster too! I love the stuff. It really promotes over all plant health. They should change the name to Big Bloom & Plant Tonic to do it justice. I dilute 1/2 throughout growth, then recomended strength for bloom
-- Chromophore, you work in a lab with plants. Read the organic ingredients of Big Bloom, then look into the minerals & different hormones naturally occurring in those organics & get back to us with what you find. I think everyone following this thread will go to this product as a very happy customer. :) :) :)

Big Bloom is essentially worm castings, bat guano, seabird guano, kelp, and some phosphorous and potassium salts. The composition of guano and worm castings is very complex, but both contain a very complete array of trace minerals eg, molybdenum, copper, etc. But there are some differences. Guano can be very high in nitrogen, which castings typically are not. This is because bats and birds eat insects, which are basically protein nuggets. Digestion of protein yields nitrogen. But from a chemical point of view, what is remarkable about these organic nutrient sources, as opposed to synthetics like Miracle Gro, is that the nitrogen is in the form of uric salts, nitrate salts, as well as ammonium oxalate. These are superior forms of nitrogen to plain ammonium hydroxide (the form often used in fertilizers). Why? The answer is interesting.

Plant roots take up minerals and other nutrients one molecule at a time. And most of the molecules being absorbed are in a form where they carry an electric charge, negative or positive. Such a species of molecule is termed an ion. For example, ammonium ion is NH4-, water liberates H+ and OH-, Nitrate is NO2-, Sulfate is SO4-, etc. But at the level of the root cell membranes that do the absorbing, each type of ion exists within a "pecking order" so to speak. Some ions will flow in rapidly, AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. This is critical. Miracle Gro knows this, and they also know that ammonium ion is taken up faster and more efficiently than any other. So they load the fertilizer with ammonium ion. The result of this is a very rapid and noticeable greening and growth spurt. But this is akin to shooting heroin as opposed to drinking poppy tea. There is a price to pay for this trick. Ammonium ion is so robust at the root level that it precludes absorption of other very important ions, Ca+, Mn+, even H+ which is essential for proper metabolism. So they jam a whole bunch of that in there too, in forms that are taken up rapidly. So you are basically pumping the plant up with the equivalent of super Human Growth Hormone mixed with steroids and some clean Bolivian flake for good measure. In the end you will have a green monster, but it may lack the ability to fight disease, repair wounds, properly form fruit, and on and on. Doesn't matter if its a zinnia in a flower pot I guess, but for agriculture it's terrible.

The ionic forms of N,P,K and all the others found in castings and guano are a perfect balance for proper, orderly and timely uptake. Depending on what the worms are fed you can have a very rich smorgasbord of ionic species and trace elements. There are also many other organic molecules important for plants (humins, fulvins, ulmins, fatty acids, glomalins, and many many others. Many of these compounds are formed in the guts of birds, bats and worms as they digest. I have used Big Bloom for years with the Salvia species I study, and there is no question that it is a superior fertilizer for constant feeding. Two years ago I started growing all of my Salvia in Ocean Forest and fertilize only with Big Bloom. The plants have dramatically improved in health and trichome production (Salvia has trichomes similar to Cannabis and these are filled with essential oils and aromatic terpenes).

I'm not trying to be a shill for Foxfarm, as I'm sure there are many other brand nutrients out there with similar properties. But in my experience, both as a biochemist and as a grower, organic ferts and soil mixtures based on worm castings and guano are the only way to go. And we haven't even discussed the effects on the aroma and taste of the bud. Save that one for later.

AH YES!!!! aroma & flavor! Organics effect terpinoids in ways chem nutes miss by a long shot! But you missed my FAVOURITE part of Big Bloom! Sea birds eat fish. Fish & their by products have gentle, natural growth & other hormones that effect plants in a healthy & positive way. Sea kelp too, in addition to all the other wonderful properties it posesses. (You know, native americans were really showing their smarts when they would drop a minnow or two into their planting holes)! I knew if I put you on the spot you pump out the info! Gets the point across when info comes from more than just one person. I can't help but sing the praises of a product I love this much. It would be so awesome if Fox Farms were to become one of our sponsers here, dontcha think? :) :) :)~~~ thanks Chromophore! ;)

I'm glad you mentioned the fish, because I honestly have never understood what the plants were deriving from them. I would like to know more about this. I have tried fish emulsion fertilizers in my garden but my cats begin earnest excavations and make a huge mess of things. I also wonder what exactly is in the kelp. Whatever it is, FF has figured out the right formulation. And I should point out that my little essay above was full of gross generalities. Different plants have different requirements and metabolic tendencies, but the points concerning ionic form and ion-based blockage is really important. That's why I cringe when I see first time growers opting for grocery store potting soil and Miracle-Gro. JUST SAY NO.:stoned:

Also my bad, Ammonium ion is NH₄⁺, nitrate is more properly NO₃^-, and sulfate is SO₄^2- . Catbuds I think you know that and you didn't call me out on it!:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Chromophore

Also my bad, Ammonium ion is NH₄⁺, nitrate is more properly NO₃^-, and sulfate is SO₄^2- . Catbuds I think you know that and you didn't call me out on it!:thumbsup:

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I didn't even notice. Anything remotely reassembling math, I memorized just long enough to ace my mid-terms! LOL! Straight up hort wasn't quite as technical with the numbers, some of the required botany was though. Those classes stressed me out. I was scared to death they would ruin my perfect GPA, but no. They just gave me an Ulcer instead! Things like trig & higher math? Yeah, I aced it back then. Must have only stored that stuff in my short term memory, as soon as I was out of college, I kicked the numbers right out of my head! Now a days I have to use my fingers for multiplication! Ha! Sad but true.
-- Grocery store soil? Might as well plant it in the toilet! MG or any monsanto product or their modified genetics can send me into a very LONG rant. Highly paid advertising has completely brain washed the public. I honestly think you could sell vomit if it was pushed by the big advertisers. People are becoming more like cattle everyday. You can herd them up & lead them anywhere. No wonder we have such asses in political offices. That's another rant, & I've already had it. ~~~ PEACE!~~~

OMB forgive us for threadjacking, but Catbuds has a way of making me laugh and want to talk shop. I would only argue that humans acting like cattle is nothing new. The techniques for taking advantage of that property have simply become more sophisticated. But enough of that. I know it sounds snobbish, but I will never back down from pushing organic soil and nutrients, in ANY type of growing.

No worries Chromophore, it's all good!....and I'm not one of the "Cattle" types myself, I dance to my own beat. ;) I tend to want to divert from the "masses", it's not my cup of Tea to be a Conformist.
You guy's chat away, it's all good info my friends. :thumbsup:

OMB, I just noticed no one answered your question on molasses! I'm sorry. Any molasses is good as long as its low sulphur. Most (but not all) molasses that contain sulphur will be labled as sulphured molasses. I used to use blackstrap in puppy & kitten formulas, but I don't remember if it contained sulphur. I'd say probably not, since it never made them gassy, but read the lable to make sure. Brand names vary according to locality. When I was a kid, I used to stir blackstrap into milk just like hersheys syrup. Shit was good with apple pie! Ohh, & buttered biscuits & jelly! Shit. Now I'm hungry! LOL! :) :) :)

I use animal feed grade molasses. It contains no Sulfur.

Thanks Shovelhandle! How much should I use per gallon of H20?...and how often? All they have gotten is that Terra Flores 2-2-4 after they go 12/12.

I can't say what you should use. somewhere between a teaspoon and two tablespoons per gallon. I go about the middle of that, 1 tablespoon / gallon. I use molasses with the nutrients only, Feed-Water-Water.

The T5 girls are clearly pulling away from the HPS....I added a couple CFL's to the HPS girls to help them out, it was a "No contest" at this point.
The T5 girls have more nodes, bigger flowers and are fuller...but it ain't over yet, and I win either way.
New pics later when they "wakeup".

OMB I gave up trying to measure the molasses. It was just too sticky and uncooperative. Now I just pour some in until I figure I've got about 2 tbsp/gallon. If it looks like tea after mixing, I figure I'm good. I use the Brer Rabbit unsulphered, cause that's all that's available in my remote neck of the woods. Let's see some pics of your girls.

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Here's a couple pics I took a few minutes ago. The HPS plants are looking much better after tying and adding the CFL's. Still behind of course, but looking better.

Looking good! CFL's are handy little lights, high lumens in a sm package, & plants love the mixed spectrum. Glad you got them. You will be too when you c what they do! ;)
-- BUT..... What the hell are u doing online CHRISTMAS EVE! Go PARTY !!!! ;) ;) ;)

OMG! I just zoomed in & there's a humungus difference! T5s definitely do not disapoint! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
-- MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catbuds

Looking good! CFL's are handy little lights, high lumens in a sm package, & plants love the mixed spectrum. Glad you got them. You will be too when you c what they do! ;)
-- BUT..... What the hell are u doing online CHRISTMAS EVE! Go PARTY !!!! ;) ;) ;)

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Hahaha....Not much of a partier Mama, kind of a homebody. Crowds make me agitated. Lol
Merry Christmas!!

I can party with a crowd for about an hr. After that, I wanta go home. If not, I just get bitchy! ; (

LOL! ~~~~~ PEACE!~~~~~

Hmm. Very nice indeed OMB and the T5s are impressive. This is really making me think that I should mount my T5s as side lighting in my bud room. I have two 4' x 4 bulb T5 HO ballasts and lots of bulbs just sitting doing nothing. Adding thos T5s would really help with the outer perimeter of my plants.

Also,(and this is a general statement, not directed at you OMB) when photographing these scenes, people should check their cameras for "white balance" controls. Most have them now, even cheapos. This allows you to compensate for the hard color cast that these lights give off. HPS can be corrected with the "tungsten" setting, and MH and CFL can be corrected with the "flourescent" or even "shadow" setting if you have one. I do the correction on my computer using Adobe Lightroom. But even free image editing software usually has white balance correction.

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Couple more pics....I should just pull them out for the pics, but it's too late... About 27 day's in now. Check the HPS pair in the last pic....Kinda spindly. :wtf: Lol

I've meant to ask u this before, we need to compare lumens to lumens. Don't forget to add in the extra lumens from any side lighting. Now I've got to go back & check out your latest pics! :)

--Geeze! What a difference! ;)

I used my old aquarium water as the only thing to water plants with for years…..never found anything better available commercially….

Me too, when I have fish. Not just for nutes, but all sorts of hormones, those for growth, & some that increase feminity! Its great stuff! ;) ;) ;)

Worked in the water business for awhile, amazed and frightened by all the additives used to make it meet an arbitrary state standard. That's why I catch roof runoff in horse tank, that has gold fish and limestone rock.

Keep up the good work! Quite the experiment. Are you also trying to compare energy costs?

Good Point Tlranger - the chemicals used in most aquaponics are crazy! I have always kept several tanks- exotic fish, simple little goldfish and a huge tank for growing bog plants. I started reading about aeroponics a few months ago and thought it was funny they were putting the fish in with the plants- I have grown all kinds of plants in my aquariums with the fish and have almost 100% success rate with cuttings in aquariums - when the fish nibble at the roots it's time to plant em!
;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catbuds

I've meant to ask u this before, we need to compare lumens to lumens. Don't forget to add in the extra lumens from any side lighting. Now I've got to go back & check out your latest pics! :)

--Geeze! What a difference! ;)

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The T5's are at almost 35,000 Lumen Mama. 6 bulb 4 foot is 30,000, plus the little 2 foot 2 bulb at almost 5000 lumen.
The HPS is about 15-18,000 Lumen (I think)...So it was not a fair comparison as far as Lumens. I did ad another 3220 Lumen with the CFL sidelights to the HPS, but I don't see them catching up anytime soon.
I may have to Get all "T5" on 'em! ;)

Fish in the Hydro? Cool... Never heard of anyone doing that, what a great idea! :thumbsup:

As I said earlier, we really need to do this experiment with equal lumens and equivalent lighting structure (side lighting, etc). But I am really intrigued with how the T5s are performing here. Couple of questions OMB...Are you confident that the group of plants here are genetically stable? By that I mean are you confident you are not seeing phenotypic variance unrelated to lighting? I ask this because the 4 girls I am flowering are supposedly seed from a single cross, but one of them has a distinctly different growth habit, ie lankier, longer internode distance, and overall "thinner" appearance. Also, are you using a single temperature of bulb in your T5, or are you mixing kelvins, and if so, what is your mixture? Apologies if you've already covered this earlier in the thread.

Hey Cromophore, The 6 bulb 4 foot light has four 2700K bulbs and two 6500K bulbs. The two foot 2 bulb sidelight is 6500K, so I am mixing spectrums.
The 4 plants are all clones from the same original Mother, but a couple of them may be "clones of clones", I don't recall exactly. Some do seem to "stretch" more than other's, but none are very tall. ( I LST them to prevent that, but it's just a stumpy strain I guess). The ones under the HPS are the tallest I have grown, besides mama plant. She is a Bush, I really need to pull her out and take a pic...and do some pruning!

Forgot to add....the internodes are much closer together on the T5 girls, it shows in a couple of my crappy pics. I really need to take better pics....I have the camera and ability, but it's always late and the effort lacks as a result. Lol

Few more shots from a couple day's ago. Mama even got out of the cabinet for a few minutes. That bush is headed for Flower, I am going to make a new Mama.

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Forgot to mention this is 29 days into 12/12...and the Mama plant is almost 4 months from clone. She is well tied, can't see it, but lots of string and Bamboo skewers
spreading her open. She has just gotten too wide for my space, not to mention too tall for my Veg box. I have to keep the light high and it's not convenient to raise all the babies in Veg to compensate.