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Hey does Budding Hope deliver to albuquerque?
Have you heard.....the medicine from the now defunct SF Institute of Natural Medicine is now available through Mother Earth. Giving Tree in Farmington ceased operations back in September, so I doubt they have any medicine available. They both had to have everything removed from their facilities by Friday of this week. So sad to see any of the producers go, but especially the first one. Their meds were first class.
Budding Hope appears to deliver everywhere in the state.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowyazn
Funny how I heard about this thread, my brother who lives in Albuquerque says the same things about the 'outlets' there. After visiting here, he said there wasn't much he wanted to smoke from home, I too think it just takes some time for the level of growing expertise to come up to the level of expectation. Good growers will be in demand, mediocre growers, not so much.
Willieboy Your right on that cream allways seem to rise to the top. But I see the producers are all getting better but some better than others.
Oh wow so SFINM transferred all their product to Las Cruces? I thought SFINM was based out of Santa Fe? Seems like a huge hassle to transfer everything to Las Cruces?? Unfortunately I never got the chance to try SFINM but I heard nothing but good things. Also, thanks for the info on BH CFO =)Quote:
Originally Posted by CFO
Hey willi, where is 'here' for you? I'm assuming California or Colorado? I'm sorry your brother hasn't found any places he likes...I'm still in the process of trying every single place I can, but my location does limit that. However, as a cannabis connoisseur, I am proud to say that I've found at least 2 or 3 places that I frequent out of the 10 or so I've tried. What really bothers me...is that I can literally find an ounce of master kush on the street for 250.00...whereas a place like NaturalRX charges 15.00 per gram all the way up...15x28= 420.00. Almost a 70% price increase. That kind of situation IMO is just WRONG.
Santa Fe's loss is Southern NM's gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowyazn
If you can find organic, medicinal grade strains on the street, I suppose the choice is obvious. You have to get your mediicine at the least expensive place. However, keep in mind that the producers have strict procedures to follow and you have no idea how that street Kush was grown. I would imagine at that price that it may be some of the CA medicine being imported to NM that didn't pass inspection in CA. Have been watching "Weed Wars" on cable and learning lots of things I didn't know previously. You could be smoking/injesting spider mites and their excrement in that $250/ounce Kush! Buyer beware.
The NM LNPP prices will continue to decrease as supply increases. Prices range from $8 - 20 per gram right now. Cheaper is rarely better. Just as our organic produce in the grocery stores, organic medicine is more costly to produce and thus more costly to purchase.
Good....post.....here is the problem I see in most if not all MMJ states.......there is a difference between weed and medical quality cannabis.....and that difference can and most often is HUGE....dispensarys will attempt to make the most money....and quality suffers.....Why would anyone want to grow Sour D or almost any OG when it takes 10-12 weeks? when they can grow a big bud cross and harvest in 7-8 weeks? the markup on the medicine is the same and costs are way less.
As a patient you have to decide what medicine you want to put in your body....cheap outdoor....inferior indoor....average indoor.....mexi-brick weed....or truly AAA medical quality that is certified organic, with strict guidelines.'
Here is a strain that takes 10 weeks (green thai x pre98 buba x og kush) "green thai og"...not a very good yielder to grow but thc content is over 22% CBD near 1%
Attachment 281225
Here is another strain that takes 10+ weeks (Blackberry kush x pre 98 buba x OG kush) "Black bubba OG" ....another small yielder but very high thc content.
Attachment 281226Attachment 281227
With all the changes happening with the federal government and their stance that even though your state voted for MMJ....in their eyes it is still against federal law....I believe the MMJ movement will continue to change...you are going to see more and more dispensarys close.....I see this movement as more of a grower to patient direct process....and I believe that is where we will end up....
Now....I know that I kinda jacked this thread....but the short answer is to grow true medical grade cannabis....it takes experience...time...and lots of hard work....seems like everyone thinks, go to you tube watch some urban growers shows...and bam....I am an expert...but what they find out...is they have just grown B grade indoor weed....and that is what is available at most collectives...not saying they will not get better, if they stay the course...of course they will......but growing is not easy....and growing medical quality cannabis is very time consuming, most people fail.
Sorry for the thread jack....just my 02 cents
All jar cured for 30 to 60 days
I totally understand where you're coming from CFO, and under any other case yes I would be wary of purchasing weed from the street. However, I hypothetically know exactly where this master kush is coming from, from production to delivery. That's the only reason I used it as an example, cause I was actually able to compare the one fro NaturalRX with the other and there was no difference. At all. I'm kinda tempted to take them some and see if they can tell the diference themselves haha. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by CFO
Weeddaddy, thanks for the great pictures! Also, I agree with you. It's about turnaround and profit at this point it seems to me. There is some OG's floating around..but the quality is soooo bad. I mean, it's obviously an OG but just poorly grown. At this point in our state, it really is up to individual dispensary's discretion on how they want to grow their medicine. What is on my mind is the fact that so many people automatically believe organic is better on all levels. I understand the need for organic grown medicine, especially for those patients with suppressed immune systems, but one cannot deny that there is badly grown organic medicine out there. Is it really worth trading off that much quality of product just to label it organic?
weedaddy50 let me go over a few things with MO "there is a difference between weed and medical quality cannabis".....and that difference can and most often is HUGE". It can be but then again it can even be better. There are some very good growers here. "dispensarys will attempt to make the most money". I think we all know that the costs of production for the producers is High so what they have to charge has to cover these cost."Why would anyone want to grow Sour D or almost any OG when it takes 10-12 weeks?" Simple answer The producers want to supply the best meds that they can for the patients and are willing to try most any strain. "As a patient you have to decide what medicine you want to put in your body....cheap outdoor....inferior indoor....average indoor.....mexi-brick weed....or truly AAA medical quality that is certified organic, with strict guidelines." CHEAP OUTDOOR The best bud I have ever had has been outdoor.But your right "or truly AAA medical quality that is certified organic". Will cost you more because of how you have to handle the product "I see this movement as more of a grower to patient direct process" That is the way it is done here in NM. That is why we have not been in the cross hairs from the feds."but the short answer is to grow true medical grade cannabis....it takes experience...time...and lots of hard work....seems like everyone thinks, go to you tube watch some urban growers shows...and bam....I am an expert...but what they find out...is they have just grown B grade indoor weed" there we kind of agree But I think we know like you say ....it takes experience...time...and lots of hard work.If you are truly a grower you take pride in what you grow I do anyway.60 day cure very nice.But looking at your bud I think It looks like it is too dry to still be curing.For a very well cured bud say 6 months the moisture level has to be at least 30% so the time you have to take in checking and adjusting things is HUGE because mold is just right there. If you have ever had that kind of bud you know what I am talking about.That type of cure is not Know by many.The risk for many is just too high.
Organic is required by the State per the Rules and Regs. The producers have no choice in the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowyazn
CFO your only half right PPL's don't have to do organic.
LOL, Alf. Since the patients cannot sell to other patients, it only matters to the patient how they produce medicine for themselves. When I wrote "producers" I should have written LNPP? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by alfonso2002
OK now your right again.
Check out the current regs.......Quote:
Originally Posted by alfonso2002
NM nonprofit producers no longer have to grow organically
some nonprofit producers are hyping their Hydro buds>>>as real meds>>it's pretty pathetic.......
Best to have a PPL and grow your own!
Who needs chem weed!
Voodoo child You can grow" HYDRO" organically.I my self have tried hydro with an ebb and flow system and in my HO it came out better than what I had grown in soil pots here is a little to think about when you are thinking organics.
In the United States there are numerous different definitions of "organic", many of which differ significantly. Each state has its own regulations for labeling produce as ??organic". Additionally, there are 36 non-governmental organizations which can certify" produce as organic. For example, California growers who wish to sell their produce as "organic" must register with the California Department of Food and Agriculture and pass their inspection. However, California grower's can also obtain certification through the California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF), which actually has higher standards for organic than the state has.
The CCOF certification is optional, but produce with California state registration and CCOF certification may be offered for sale within the state as "certified organic" If the grower chooses not to seek CCOF certification, the produce can be offered for sale in California as "organic," but not "certified organic?. Any produce grown outside of the United States can be sold as "certified organic" in the country if one of the 36 non-governmental organizations certifies it. In fact, produce from any state can be granted certification from one of the non-governmental organizations, even if it does not meet the organic standards for the state in which it is being sold. Pretty confusing!
What this all means is that the "organic" label is a matter of bureaucratic definitions, which can vary from state to state, and country to country. In order to bring some kind of standard into play, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) ?? along with state government regulators, non-governmental certifiers, consumers, industry interest groups, food processors and various special interest groups ?? is writing a federally mandated set of "organic" standards. No state will be able to apply more stringent standards than those of the federal.
The basic objectives of "organic" practice include the following:
Avoidance of pesticides, by use of natural pest controls (also applied by many hydroponics growers).
Caring for soil by recording nutrients and composting, and
Moderation of nutrient application with reliance on the bufferaction of humus derived from compost.
Soilless hydroponic cultivation moderates nutrient supply by the more exact measurements of soluble nutrient formulations, mixed to meet the optimum requirements of each plant species and growth phase. Many consumers select "organic" produce, believing that this is the only way to be assured of pesticide-free non??hazardous food. While "organic" farming methods do produce crops generally superior to and safer than those grown by agri-business practices, modern hydroponic techniques can put forth equally safe food that in many cases offers advances in nutrition and taste over their soil-grown ??organic? counterparts. But to the consumer, it's the label that counts, so an increasing number of growers throughout the United States are struggling to get organic certification in any way, shape or form.
Meanwhile, this whole situation poses an enormous dilemma to hydroponic growers who also want organic recognition for their produce. The primary problem for organic hydroponic growers is in the formulation of the soilless nutrient solution. A secondary issue, which concerns the federal regulators, is in the way used hydroponic nutrient and media such as rockwool are disposed of. Since "organic" is to a large extent a farming philosophy in support of a healthy environment, the federal concern is entirely reasonable.
Although the latter factor has no bearing on the quality and safety of the produce itself, the impact upon the planet is a real driving force behind the issue of "organic" farming. If hydroponic growers can find a way to completely recycle exhausted water, nutrients and media, then the argument in favor of "organic-hydroponic certification" becomes much stronger, but there's still the issue of formulating a satisfactory organic hydroponic nutrient mix.
Organic nutrient regulations prohibit the use of many mineral salts and highly refined substances, including food and pharmaceutical grade ingredients that are extremely important for successful hydroponic nutrient formulation. Only unrefined minerals can be used on "organic" crops and these often don't dissolve well or contain quantities of impurities, some of which are even relatively toxic but are "natural? and therefore ??okay?, according to organic standards. For example, mined phosphate may contain excessive amounts of fluoride, good for teeth in very small quantities, but harmful to humans in excess.
Mined phosphate also can contain small amounts of radioactive elements such as radium, which releases radon, also not good for human health. Chlorides, too, are permitted for organic cultivation but though they are naturally mined, they can be bad for both plants and soil, especially if used in excess. Some soils used by organic farmers contain such toxic elements as selenium, which can accumulate in the plant tissues and produce. Amazing, isn't it?
When refined, any impurities or toxicities such as those listed above are removed, but refined minerals make for non-organic produce. Blood meal, bone meal, fish meal and manures pose almost no potential safety hazards, but they don't dissolve very well; they must be broken down through microbial action in the soil and therefore don't work well in hydroponic applications. There is also a problem that sometimes arises when using manures. The Western Fertilizer Handbook, an important guide for American farmers, points out that many gastro-intestinal illnesses can he traced back to manures used on organically gown crops.
In the summer of 1995, a serious outbreak of salmonella poisoning resulted from an organic cantaloupe crop growing in soil fertilized with fresh chicken manure. The rinds of the melons had become contaminated and the bacteria caused serious intestinal illness for many consumers.
Another point that can be made is that strict vegetarians or animal rights activists may be offended by the use of blood, bone, horn, hoof and feather meals to grow their food, but these are primary nutrient sources for organic farmers. As you can see, this issue Is very complex and there are many points of view. Essentially though, "organic" farming is part philosophy and part methodology, but unfortunately defined bureaucratically. In short just take care of what you are feeding your plants.
Alfonso currently there are no real standards for Organic Hydro.......
look at the amount of heavy metals in most organic hydro nutrients and they are at pretty high levels...
That's not organic IMO.
Advanced Nutrients have some of the highest levels of heavy metals yet they call it organic>>yeah right that's just BS marketing
Real organic meds grown in organic soil will always be superior quality unless you've got a noob grower
that can't grow in organic soil>>this is the case for some of NM nonprofit producers>>Some are still growing mids at best....
I've tried meds from 14 different producers and while some were excellent most samples were mid grade at best,machine trimmed beasters!
some samples from New Mexicann were pure schwag.......1 bud of Ravens Ridge had mold..........
This is not my idea of organic meds, but then I've lived in Cali and Colorado and I expect the same quality of meds here in NM.
I have consistently found Organic meds here from 1 producer........
I have checked out the regs and under section 7.34.4.8C(4) it states "....organic growing methods". I would take that to mean the LNPP are supposed to be growing organically.Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo child
How many patients are growing and using regular "miracle grow" for their nutrients? Unless they are using the organic blend, they are growing "chem weed".
In reviewing the regs to quote in this post, I failed to find the 6 ounce limit that was once there. I also went to the Lynn & Erin Compassionate Use Act and only find the wording "adequate supply". If we are no longer limited to 6 ounces then even with only 4 plants, we should be able to produce that "adequate supply". Someone help me find the section that states we can have only 6 ounces.
Wow, you have purchased from 14 out of 25 (now 23) producers?! That's great. Wish all of us could do that. I am unable to travel to Albuquerque or pay the extra 20 - 30 for delivery fees. But the meds in southern NM are damn good.Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo child
I don't expect, nor will I for some time, the same quality of meds from the NM LNPPs as from those in CA or CO. Growers in both of those states have had more time to hone their skills. Give the LNPPs 10-15 years and they will be on par or better than CA or CO. (Actually, I don't think it will take that long....some are already there after only a few years.)
As far as schwag from NMNM....they are one of the few LNPPs having their meds tested. You must have purchased from them before they implemented testing.
So, who is the one producer from whom you have consistently found organic meds? initials will work if you don't want to state their full name.
CFO the back of your card states that. But I will go check the regs. Wow that would be nice if that wording was not in the regs.
??Adequate supply? means an amount of cannabis, derived solely from an intrastate source and
in a form approved by the department, possessed by a qualified patient or collectively possessed by a qualified patient and the qualified patient??s primary caregiver, that is determined by the department to be no more than reasonably necessary to ensure the uninterrupted availability of cannabis for a period of three (3) months. An adequate supply shall not exceed six (6) ounces of useable cannabis, and with a personal production license only, four (4) mature plants and twelve (12) seedlings, or a three (3) month supply of topical treatment. An amount greater than six (6) ounces of useable cannabis may be allowed, at the department??s discretion, upon proof of special need as evidenced by a practitioner letter explaining why a larger dose is indicated. Any such allowance shall be reviewed for approval by a medical director designated by the department, who shall consider standards for exceptions to the adequate supply requirements that are approved by the advisory board. A qualified patient and primary caregiver may also possess cannabis seeds.
Beg to differ with you but "Real organic meds grown in organic soil will always be superior quality unless you've got a noob grower"Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo child
growing in easiestis the easyist way treallyw.Do you reahandlingo be handeling shit in your INDOOR garden? Give me a break If read your lables you know what is in your nutes as for 100% organic good luck with your buds or meds. No disrespect but every grower grows what they think is right.
Thanks Alf. I found everything you just posted through the 3 months. It is the rest of it that I cannot find. The 6 ounces is on the back of the patient card, but not on the back of the PPL. From what source are you quoting the rest of your post?
I know of one but there are more Greenleaf.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFO
New RuleQuote:
Originally Posted by CFO
Thanks. I was in 7.34.4 and finally found it in 7.34.3 but hadn't gone to 7.34.2. Sheeesh....so many sections to state the same thing. I guess we need to petition for a rules change for a 12 month supply rather than 3 months. That way we can grow our own for the entire year. But their 3 month supply assumes using only 2 ounces per month. I know a patient that goes through an ounce a week. So he has to grow indoors which is more costly and have a perpetual garden. He can and does, but there are other patients who can only grow outdoors. Which is why we have the LNPPs. Which is also why the DOH is finally doing some site visits of the patients with licenses....too many are breaking the rules and growing more than is allowed. I have heard of some of the patients selling their meds, too. Which of course is against the rules, but they figure they won't get caught. Also heard of people buying from the low-priced Albuquerque producers and reselling too. Haven't seen any of the $8 meds. Has anyone here? Quality?Quote:
Originally Posted by alfonso2002
SFINMQuote:
Originally Posted by CFO
Their White Star Dawg and Fire Alien Kush are superb meds,as nice as anything I get in Cali or Colorado......
sucks they didn't renew...they had the FIRE!
I will miss buying clones from them
my avatar is a Alien Kush clone of theirs I grew this past Fall
glad I kept a cut for a mom!
alfonso I brew ACT and make my own vermicompost bro!Quote:
Originally Posted by alfonso2002
I don't handle shit or shitty bottled nutes!
I do VEGANICS! read about it , you may learn something........
look up 7.34.2.7 B of the medical advisory board rules and regs..........
this is for DOH for considering applicants>It says it's a factor in considering applicants
find me where it says nonprofit producers must grow organically?
And yeah I'm sure some patients with PPL's are growing Chem weed>>but I don't care about that as I don't buy meds from them,I only buy from licensed nonprofit producers!
Alfonso posted the link to section 7.34.2 and the section you indicate is the definitions section and doesn't say anything about organics. The section I previously posted, as you state, says "organic growing methods" would be a (as you state) a "factor in considering" applications. In reading between the lines, I would say that is a "must". Otherwise, why would it be "considered" in the first place? See 7.34.4.8.C(4)Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo child
Now, veganics....that's a whole different thing as you are aware. Are there any LNPPs growing veganically?
I heard their genetics went to Mother Earth. You might want to get registered with them if you aren't already. They can only deliver in DAC due to the ICE checkpoints, but patients can take the risk themselves. So if you are up north, you can travel and pick it up, but getting back through the checkpoint is on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoo child
voodoo child OK so you use worm shit. Like I said growers grow what they think is right.I use worm castings in my base soil also but also want my plants to have what they want."And yeah I'm sure some patients with PPL's are growing Chem weed>>but I don't care about that as I don't buy meds from them,I only buy from licensed nonprofit producers! ". I use green air products for hydro and fox farms for my soil grows . Your "VEGANICS!" must not be doing to well if you are still having to buy from producers. With my" Chem weed" I have not had to buy from a producer in the past 3 years.I take pride in my meds. And would have no problem having them checked for contents.What are you looking for in your Meds? You say SFINM had the "FIRE" can you tell me what you mean by that? I my self can't wait till there is a ligament place here in NM that can do testing of our meds. I am trying to find a plant with a high CBD number I think that the highest I have seen in NM is less than 2% Yea I know that if you grew that strain you might just throw that plant out because it did not get you high. I think I have posted before on this but there is way more to the cannabis plant than getting high I too do not mind that side affect but like I said there is more to it than that.
CFO as usual your right that is one part of the rules that needs to be looked at.There are many Patients in the program that can't afford to be subsidizing PNM when NM is know for the amount of sunshine we get. and if you grow your 4 plants outside in the summer or if you figure your light cycles right you can get more than one harvest a year yes you will have to do a little more work but you don't need any indoor lighting.The 12 month supply would be a better time frame.Then if you did need more than the 2 oz.s a month that would work with the 12 month thing. P.S. CFO Did not get any of that but my thinking you get what you pay for. but when you are talking about our meds. ????Quote:
Originally Posted by CFO
I have been reading this forum for a long time and find it hard to post because of all the passive aggressive bs about who grows what better and how. Everyone thinks they grow the best, but all you can do is learn at every step no matter how good you are. It seems the ones recommending producers have a vested interest in said producer, i.e. they are on the board. There should be transparency on who you work with before recommending medicine. It would make it easier to take their recommendations with a grain of salt. This group should be united to help each other grow and purchase better meds with the help from forum members, not bashing or arguing over opinions.
Yes you can do organic hydroponics. Google Guppy-Ponics, something started by Breeder Steve in early 2000 or so.
Using hydroponic techniques does not fully take advantage of the michorizza, trichoderma, and beneficial enzymes that are the major factors breaking down and converting organic matter, thus feeding the plants. Adding "sugar" before harvest feeds the enzymes therefore making nutrient uptake more readily available and aiding in breaking down dead matter. Soil is the best carrier for these fungi and enzymes, therefore making it the best option for organic growing.
Alfonso, Fire, White Fire, OG Fire, Raskals OG etc are all strains by OG Raskal working with or through Cali Connection. This group like Voodoo Child said is producing the finest medical strains around. Raskal, Swerve, Hysterex and TDS seem to be on the cutting edge of mmj breeding. Using the term "fire" also seems to be interchangeable with the term "dank". So, it could either be referring to the strain, or an adjective for really good bud.
Nice avatar voodoo, looks like a nice alien cut! Alien Kush or Purple Alien Kush is Las Vegas Purple Kush crossed with the Alien Tech male. If you don't know the Alien Tech, google it, it is a nice story. There are different phenotypes from the same cross i.e., alien kush 4, Alien Kush 5 etc. Packs of 10 seeds were going for upwards of $1500 when they came out a few years back. Rumor is the original Alien Tech male was lost, so I'm not sure how NM producers had seeds unless bred themselves. If they were bred in-house it would be nice to know the genetics used. The Alien Tech has added a lot to recent breeding projects as it is a 100% indica male that adds amazing frost to anything it touches.
nmk
i wish i had a medicine issue but where i m at it, its not so therefore i cant add anything to this thread......hope the quality goes up there
Post away I will not post to any of your posts I am not on this site to start any trouble with anyone all I try to do is post MY opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by nmkush
Thanks for all that info nmkush!Quote:
Originally Posted by nmkush
one of SFINM's delivery drivers told me they held over 20 "elite cuts"
that list contained Chem4,ChemD,Daywrecker,HeadBand,Wifi #3,White MasterKush, Alien Urkle Kush,WhiteStarDawg,WhiteUrkle,ECSD,Tres Dawg,BerryWhite,GDPurple,True OG,Guava13,StrawBerryBubba Kush and many more......
I was told they grew out the Alien Kush from seeds that OBSoul gave their grower.......That pheno in my avatar is AAA! Dank!Glad I hung onto it!
There was some kind of Cali connection it seems, as I bought OGRaskal Fem seeds from them in the original OGRaskal packs........Check the net, those beans are hard to get>>somebody had some nice connections there for sure
Seems as though their grower was hooked up with Avalon Wellness in Long Beach and Fruit Ridge?
I will miss buying their clones>>always pest and disease free, and verified.......
i'll see if i have some pics on my harddrive?
alfonso my veganic plants do just fine i just like a lot of variety and those cats had organic "elite's" for sale>>gotta be a fool not to jump on that for some killer meds!
I agree alfonso maybe in 5-15 years some of the NM nonprofits will grow real "elite" medical strains like those!
Here you go alfonso
here are some of the "elite" Medical strains I have grown veganically
We have WhiteMasterKush,2 pics of WhiteBuba Kush, DayWrecker, and Strawberry Bubba Kush
gotta love Cali genetics!
Those look like some fine buds there
Nice pics! Sounds like SFINM had the hookup on some real genetics. I hope to see some of the strains you mentioned as cuttings around here soon. Headband and true Chem Dog are some nice keeper strains. Awesome score on the Rascal seeds, those are a serious hard find, I hope you found some males! I have grown out Purple Alien Kush 5 and Raskals OG both were awesome the OG was a little lanky but a fast finisher for an OG. Only ended up keeping the alien, it looks spot on like the pic you posted, smells like berries.
nmkush
Hey everybody sorry for being away for so long..busy with the new year and all. hope everyone had a great holiday season. i know im a little late, but just wanted to let everyone know Im in the process of creating a preliminary basic webpage for patients of the NMMCP to read independent reviews of medicine from around the state. I've contacted some web designers that are friends of mine and some of them have agreed to do it FOR FREE. However, since there is no cost, we will have to work around their schedule since they all hold full-time jobs. Anyone else interested in helping out? I'm looking for somebody in southern NM to review the products out there...no way I'm driving to cruces lol. Oh and BTW voodoo..aweosme pics man. Can't go wrong with Cali genetics..I have some original feminized blueberry seeds from what used to be Medical Kush Beach Club in Venice Beach...so if anyone's interested in growing them out...i don't have the time, place, or PPL yet to do em. I'm sure we could come to some understanding between patients...=) also @ nmkush, its the internet man and an online forum. some people are bound to be ruder than they would be in real life, but just keep in mind that averyone has their own opinion. =) btw that wasnt aimed at anyone in particular, i was just saying in general. I know I'm a dick ;-) lol.