DWC, I need some advice and guidance

1-2 inches of waterline below basket is good. Should be fine because the whole point is to provide air by use of an air pump, not exposing the roots to surrounding air. However, I've read since ambient air has 20% oxygen and air pumped into water only delivers about 8% oxygen, it's actually better to expose roots to room air. I suspect this is why aeroponics works so well. With that method, your roots get sprayed with nute mix either from the side or trickle down from the top, the nute mix runs down the roots and pools at the bottom of the bucket where it's get pumped out and cycle around again. You use a water pump instead of an air pump. There are some great videos on youtube on how to build this and it really isn't much different. There should be a difference in plant growth however. I can't explain your low ppm being effective, unless the higher ppms that I'm used to reading about really isn't correct data. When you've got something that works, you should probably stick with it, but personally I can't wait to try an aero method. The reason why your plants won't drown in so much water is because you have adequate oxygen being pumped into the water. Doesn't have anything to do with how far the water level is below the netpot. I've read that the ideal hydro pH is more like 6.3. I doubt if you need to change your res. I'd use distilled water bought at the store which shouldn't have much ppm to it. This will give you a baseline of zero or close to it and a better idea of what your real ppm is. I think pretty much anywhere in 6's should be fine for pH. Grow them another 6 inches, then put into 12/12 light cycle. Raise ppm some using distilled water, so yes, a res change is in order if you used tap water. pH around 6.3. Should be good stuff. Gonna get stinky!

Thanks for the info Polish, good stuff. Yeah my air pump is a 385 watt commercial... Works very well, quite happy with it. I got to believe this is a large reason for my success. I'm still in AW when I was changing out my rez's and I was looking at the root masses underneath the plants. I was worried about the roots growing around the air hose and it only did in a few buckets, so I was lucky. I've always wondered about AERO.. This is my first hydro grow and I'm already won over when it comes to dro or soil.

So I measured all my plants and the tallest is 25", the smallest is 11". I took the average by adding up the heights divided by the # of girls, and I came out to 18". I just got done changing the Rez's out, and i'm going to start flowering now. I mixed my tigerbloom and big bloom. I just followed the chart and ppms with just the dosage given is about 800. Almost double the ppm levels from before. What kind of store sells large quantities of distilled water? Hell yeah they are already stinky, but I got my homemade cat liter can filter haha.. Just need to hook it up!

I just realized when you wrote to grow them another 6" then flower, I looked at my post and it said they were a foot tall. I was guessing the average at that time, but they were bigger then I thought! Always a good thing

check Walmart for your water

Lol... I should of known that was a silly question.

Ok so It's day 2 of flower and plants look good. Growth has stopped and they have been at a stand still. Earlier in the thread, in Veg stage, I fed according to the Fox farms nute schedule for hydro. My ppms were 400-500. I think I just realized why my ppms are lower then some.. On the chart it shows "Solubles" and also "Bush Doctor" . I haven't tried these products, but they are added along with the trio pack of tiger bloom, big bloom, and grow big during the life of the plant. If I were to of added these per dose at specified times, I'm assuming my ppms would of been closer to 800 or so. I'm thinking about picking these up and giving them a whirl. It depends on $ of course. I had a few questions:

For soil, towards the end of the flower stage, 2 weeks to be exact, it is suggested to stop feeding completely. Is there any rule for hydro on this? I haven't heard anyone say to just use tap water in Rez for remainder of time or such..

Also, I am running two 400watt HPS batwings now.. I think I read that 400watt is a 3x3 area for coverage? Currently I have my plants aligned in a 7x4 area, and they are rubbing elbows in a bad way (figure of speech). I've been looking into 1000w systems and have seen a few on ebay that have caught my eye. If I was going to go 1000w, I was thinking of the hood with a tempered glass setup, having a duct run from one of its side to displace the heat. But what I was confused about is the other style that just has the cool tube, with sides as reflectors... Is this one just for ease of mounting, or does it have a better cooling mechanism? I'm thinking the only way to cool these is to take the heat and move it elsewhere. So in a sense, the first option is way better when you have a room for use? The mountable one is more $ too... 1000w is 10x10, even at 2-3ft above the canopy correct?

One last thing. I read on a few grow logs when people were asking when they should flower, and and it was said to wait for preflowers?? What do preflowers look like? Do pistils come out before you even change 12/12? It was said that the plants will tell you when it's ready to flower, and at a certain period, you will get 2 inches of bud for ever inch of plant? I've never seen or heard of that.. I may have just graduated to a horticulture apprentice.. lol

I've never used a flower stage additive, so no comment there. Just be carefull how you use it. I honestly doubt if most grows really need it.
Stop feeding a week or two before finishing. Probably at two weeks but like I said earlier, it's kind of trial and error. Certainly at one week before finish, to get rid of alot of the fert inside or they taste bad. Nothing but water.
I don't think I'd buy the 1000w. Not much point to replace two 400's. You'd be wasting your money. With two 400's you have more flexibility, one low one high, or just use one light if you want. Just enough to continue photosynthesis. Rotate the plants around so not just one is under the light all time. Takes a little effort but might be worth it and will save you about 300 on a 1000w. People say more light, the better, but I suspect that the truth is, you just need enough to get the job done. You can get new reflector for ductwork and still use the 400's if you want. You might try just a couple of fans to get the heat out first. Try simple stuff first. The money you save could be your own and summer is coming to an end, but then, I don't know where you are.
Flower when you want. Two feet tall is plenty tall enough, maybe too tall. They should continue to grow in flower. Are you sure they've stopped growing? don't follow rule of two inches of bud for every inch of plant. Flowering is dependent on genetics and environmental factors. DWC promotes good growth when done right. Let that be enough.

Thanks for the info, greatly appreciated. Yeah so for the last two weeks or so, the Rez's will be simply pH'd water. :thumbsup:

Yeah this is probably my 6th overall grow, and I've never used any other additives besides the FF trio. For a trial last grow in soil, I used water only, no nutes. It was amazing how well the plants did.... But really, I just hate soil with a passion now. Plants get rootbound so easily, and its so harsh on the growth when they do. Fixing that via transplanting seems to only fix the problem for a week! I understand the theory though, of giving the roots what they need so they don't have to grow so big to search for life, but even in prior grows with nutes, it's the same deal. But I fault my experience on that. It's just night and day the success i'm having when comparing hydro to soil. The setup for hydro was a little harder, but even the maintenance for hydro is easier.

The only reason I'm considering the 1000W is because the plants are entangled in each other, and only the tops of them are getting the light. With the added light, I could space them out more, and the whole bush would be getting hit with light. But ya 300$ is a lot of doe. Oh and BTW, I live in Washington. So the heat is actually desired in the winter haha. One of my first ever grows, I had this giant 1000w mh with the 360 reflector. The bulb was about 18" long or something like that, (huge). In the winter time, it kept the whole house 10 degrees warmer.

When I think preflowers, I just imagine well developed fruit shoots. If that is so, then I'm there..

Yeah, sounds like you're there.
Nanaimo, Chelan, Pullman, Port Angeles... wherever you're at, that's where you are. :thumbsup:

Lol, I'm in Enumclaw, outskirts of SKC.

Update: I was wrong about growth stopping. I just said that because I flipped the lights, but they bearly missed a beat. I had to start trimming some fan leaves to allow light penetration on some nodes. But I didn't go nuts. One plant has curling leaves, downward this time. One or two others look like they may follow.

This is the 4th day on 12/12 with a new batch of nutes. I mixed full strength FF nutes, tigerbloom and big bloom. PPM's were around 700-800 to begin. Checking them now, some where 400, and a few were in the 300's! They needed a top off, so I gave them pH'd water only at 5.3 to allow for a rise because each time the plants drink water, pH goes up. PPM's after the top off were 200-400. I'm thinking i need to mix nutes again in the next day or two, but like I said its only been a four days.

I read a few threads on curling leaves, and some say its lack of nutes? There are a few blotches on some leaves, but for the most part, no discoloring of leaves and most of the leaves tips are green. Whats the aftermath look like when theres too much water in the rez? (Drowning) I'm finding a lot of responses say it's almost impossible to overwater in hydro, specially with 4" airstones in a 5gal bucket.

watch ur PH drift as some strains will reverse the direction of drift on u in flower

Reverse direction? Yikes, thanks for the warning, I didn't expect that. I did notice that pH levels werent as high when I topped off this last time. pH was getting to 6.6-7.0 after a few days to a week, previously. When I checked a few this time around, I was getting 5.5-6.4 ... But in theory I should expect different patterns then Veg state because I used tigerbloom instead of growbig, correct? Instead of loading up on N for Veg, we are loading up on P ... I believe

I think the way it usually works is that pH goes up when nutes are consumed and goes down when water is consumed. I don't know if using 5.3 water is such a good idea. Shoot for about 6.3 when water and nutes are mixed, then add that to top off. ppm drops because adding water dilutes the mix, so your solid particles (ppm) goes down. I suspect that your curling leaf problem might be due to low pH. Mix water and nutes and see what pH is, then adjust if necessary. I bet you could let pH get to 6.8-6.9 without problems, however most info I've read says to shoot for a fairly steady pH of around 6.3, but don't sweat it too bad if it goes up. That might just mean to add some more fert. If the water level drops visibly, then top off some but you should use a mix of water and nutes, not just water as doing this will probably give the best pH/ppm maintenance.
Do you see how this works? If the nutes are too few, ppm is low and pH is high.
If pH is low, nutes are too many and water too less. At least this is how it usually works. pH and ppm tend to work opposite to each other. You need high ppm to make pH low using just nutes alone. More fert makes the water more acidic (low pH). It's not the amount necessarily but the low pH is telling you that there is more fert molecules per unit of water and making the water more acidic. High pH means there is greater dilution as water tends to be right around the middle with a number of 7. Number 1 is very acidic and 14 is very alkaline and 7 is in the middle, which is usually what water is. When you add ferts to water the pH starts to drop as the water becomes more acidic. Ideally you grow with a stable pH of around 6.3 and enough ppm to feed a hungry plant. I think low pH has been known to cause leaf curling.

Thanks Polish, greatly appreciated. That clears up a lot. You answered a question I hadn't asked yet :D .
It makes perfect sense to add a mix of nute/water to rez's with low ppm counts/higher pH, because as you said the ppm levels are down when ph goes up. (Most likely), always will check before I do it though. I understand that fully now. I had read and heard to just use ph'd water during feedings, which is why I was wondering what to do with my current situation of low ppms.

I checked all my rez, and two of the 15 had low pH of 4.5, and all the others had 6.5ish. The one that had the most curling was one of the lower ones. The two that had the low ph, were the biggest. I dont know if this has anything to do with it, but maybe they are further along in flower then the other gals? Bigger plant, faster cycle? Higher ppm levels in those 2 as well.

I topped them off with just water this time, didn't read the post in time :) But this is day 5 of the nute mix, so Im thinking on day 7 i'll mix a fresh batch up.

So about me using 5.3ph top off water. Lets say I check a rez, got lower ppms, and it needs water. Do I Use the same ratio of nutes to water as I did when I made the first batch, but just for the top off amount? When nutes get taken up, ph goes up most likely. So in this case, lets say Im dealing with a 6.5 ph level in the rez before I add anything. Would I then pH the nute mix to 5.5-5.8 to account for the overall pH in the rez? I know you mentioned 6.3 ... Or add the mix to the rez, stir it up, then pH the whole rez? There's gotta be an easier way to do maintenance on the rez's then im doing lol. I have an 18g tote that has its lid cut for two of my netted pots. Because I was going to use those instead as rez. So when I do my work on my rez's, one or two at a time, i lift them into that tote as gently as I can, then do what I need to.

Sorry for all the q's, and thanks in advance for the advice. I love learning about this stuff, it's fascinating.

I think I see what you're saying, but I want to pick this apart piece by piece so we can both get it right. :D

"So about me using 5.3ph top off water. Lets say I check a rez, got lower ppms, and it needs water. Do I Use the same ratio of nutes to water as I did when I made the first batch, but just for the top off amount?"

Yes, that would probably be best. Remember that the more you change, the harder it is to keep track of what you've done and haven't done. This is true for all of life too.

"When nutes get taken up, ph goes up most likely. So in this case, lets say Im dealing with a 6.5 ph level in the rez before I add anything. Would I then pH the nute mix to 5.5-5.8 to account for the overall pH in the rez?"

This is kind of hard to answer. So much of this is trial and error sometimes. That's how it is for scientists. They weren't born knowing better, but they experiment and keep track of results and draw conclusions. I would probably top off first, get your water/nute mix to the level you want it, then pH adjust it. Some here might disagree with that, but I say this because it takes little pH down or up to make a change. Volume of water in your container plays a roll here. If you pH adjust first, get it where you want it, then add top-off to a rez, don't be surprised if your pH walks away from where you want it to be. So top off first, then pH. The liquid you add for pH is minimal, plus adding a water/nute mix first will get your pH closer to where you want it so you most likely will save some pH down or whatever you're using. I'd try not to use too much down if you can help it because phosphoric acid probably works like a fert too. So depend more on real fert to manage pH than the downs and ups. In the end you let the plant tell you what's wrong, but this is difficult until you become more educated. There are some good books out there and amazon should have them for pennies.

"I know you mentioned 6.3 ... Or add the mix to the rez, stir it up, then pH the whole rez?"

Answered above.

"There's gotta be an easier way to do maintenance on the rez's then im doing lol."

Not to be a wise guy here, but this is one of those things where you get out what you put in. You don't need to go crazy (and you'll kill your plants if you do), but hydro takes more effort. You don't need to buy meters for soil. You don't need entire rez changes for soil. But you gain quicker grows that are more robust than soil. If you want slow grows, then soil is it. It's easier too. But there's some good reasons to do hydro. You wouldn't be doing it now if you were not already interested so cut yourself some slack. I guess what you mean is "how can I reduce the maintenance?" Probably the easiest thing would be a single rez system feeding several buckets. Problems with this are having a great deal of water in a single container that if it spills will be all over the place. You have to spend alot of money on fert just to get the ppm right. Smaller water amounts are easier to control. If you're in an area where you can leave the system running for a week without checking on it, then a big rez is the only thing to do. Easy is a relative thing and sometimes working harder is working smarter.

"I have an 18g tote that has its lid cut for two of my netted pots. Because I was going to use those instead as rez. So when I do my work on my rez's, one or two at a time, i lift them into that tote as gently as I can, then do what I need to."

Not entirely sure what this means unless you're referring to overflow and using the tote to catch the liquid. Usually a grower just puts down plastic or grows on vinyl or concrete. Are you the same grower that a while back was asking about using either totes or buckets, and several of us suggested you use buckets? When you say rez are you referring to those buckets? Are you just in DWC single bucket style? For buckets all you really need is a bucket you don't grow in, and pick the plant up with its lid and set down in the empty bucket. Then do what you need to.

Thanks for taking the time Polish.

Yeah I can see what you mean about adding your mix first, and then adjusting pH. It's kind of a guessing game if you don't, I see that now.

To explain that last part better.. Yeah earlier in this thread I had decided to use Totes for my reservoirs, but along the way I changed to the 5gal buckets(single bucket DWC style) to makes things more simple. Yeah how you said about placing the plant in a bucket you don't grow in, thats what I do with the totes. What had concerned me was the large root mass being picked up, being lowered into another bucket, and making sure not to pinch the roots on the way down. But yeah I gotcha, it's the duties of hydro.
I'll give a search on amazon.

check back in with updates using this thread so I can find it and preferrably shows pics if you can and feel comfortable doing so. Pics aren't necessary here, just update later if you want so I can get feedback.

Hasn't been much to update in the past few days, but things are going good. All the plants are showing pistils now and starting to stink :thumbsup:. Today im changing the Rez's out for a new batch of nutes when they awake. Still just going to use Big Bloom and Tiger Bloom, but in the upcoming weeks the FF feeding schedule uses all 3 of the trio.. IE Grow Big in addition to BB and TB. Grow Big was used highly in Veg, containing a lot of N... I think my shortest plant is about 22-24" and the tallest is pushing 36". It's a forest! It takes me back to the good old days, my first grow, when I grew just one plant but did it well. The stalk at the end of its life was so thick, I broke a pair of scissors trying to cut it lol... I'm at that level again :D

Ugh I think I vegged too long, each plant is 4ft tall.. Its day 19 of flower, and I just made a fresh batch of nutes for the reservoirs. I noticed the plants were drinking quite a bit less then on an 18/6 cycle, so Im guessing they dont drink much if at all during a night period? Also, my temps have lowered due to the temp outside lowering. Temps range from 76-70, 70 being at night. Im almost thinking 70 -69 and 68 is a bit too cold?

I was thinking about something for my next grow.. If I were to top the plant early, after 3rd leaf set or so, then after a while top the new shoots, and etc... with the growth rate I have with hydro, wouldnt that fix my tall plant problems? And just make them super bushy? I know by doing this it would slow growth down a bit, and if i were to consistantly cut to form 2 shoots again and again, this process would take a bit longer then if I didnt, but im thinking yield would be better? Ive never topped a plant, but ive lst'd, and ive cut fan leaves and such.

I havent mentioned it a lot, but im growing white skunk and blackberry :thumbsup: Im really looking forward to the bb, sativa high :jointsmile:

Sounds like everything is working. Are you seeing any leaf discoloration at all?
No lower than 68 if you can.
Cutting tops will shorten and probably make more bushy, but not necessarily give more yield.
Would be nice to see a photo of your grow bucket set up, but if you can't that's fine too.

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No leaf discoloration. Yeah after I posted about cutting tops, I researched supercropping, and it looks like the way to go by far. With my setup, it looks like it would work great.