what happened at the meeting today?

copobo

But I would add that its the perseption that people will have about big brother over the shoulder and prying eyes is all it is going to take to kill the MMCs.It will not matter if its true or not a very large amount of MMCs customers will be gone.

and the nail hits the head!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HighPopalorum

Meh. I'm just bitter. A lot of people on this board don't understand the most basic elements of how government works. They don't understand how state, local and Federal government share powers and functions. They seem to draw no distinction at all between the Constitution, Colorado law, statute and ordinance. The don't seem to know or respect any of their leaders. They don't understand how laws are made, how our legislature works, what kinds of redress citizens have. They do not know what to do when they disagree with their government. After 30 damned years of Law and Order, they are still absolutely clueless about their rights and the police. All of this ignorance translates into conspiratorial fantasies of persecution and general hostility toward any

....ahh helll this is rambling B.S. Obviously, my generalizations don't apply to all, most, or even many of the posters here.

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I guess you're not a fan of Alex Jones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by copobo

I think it might be time to be done with MMCs. I don't need 'em and really only went for novelty or a clone. I'm not a tinfoil hat wearer, but this is just wrong.

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this State law where they seem to be Gaming the rules every chance they can is making me more nervous for my clients GM and others everyday. there has to be away to sit it out and prepare for their next move. They have made allot of the so-called conspiracy nuts fortune tellers. It's hard to understand their logic unless you go back to Romer's quote "our goal is to eliminate dispensaries" what was the number 80 or 90%. and here is where it seems rigged, we listen and follow what guidelines we are given so we may operate legally but it seems like every-time a client gets past that rule making board they make another to run more interference. who knew except 60% of the worlds leaders that the United States Government are so corrupt and treat their citizens this way, and now with wiki-leaks that percentage goes up also, way up!
Got any of those tinfoil hats?;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HighPopalorum

Meh. I'm just bitter. A lot of people on this board don't understand the most basic elements of how government works. They don't understand how state, local and Federal government share powers and functions. They seem to draw no distinction at all between the Constitution, Colorado law, statute and ordinance. The don't seem to know or respect any of their leaders. They don't understand how laws are made, how our legislature works, what kinds of redress citizens have. They do not know what to do when they disagree with their government. After 30 damned years of Law and Order, they are still absolutely clueless about their rights and the police. All of this ignorance translates into conspiratorial fantasies of persecution and general hostility toward any

....ahh helll this is rambling B.S. Obviously, my generalizations don't apply to all, most, or even many of the posters here.

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This was all planned by tricky Dick and the Jerry Ford, when they stopped teaching and focusing on Civics and Government in grades 6 through 8 and only giving it lip service in high school, to stop all those radicals from hitting the streets and government buildings and demanding their Constitutional rights as American citizens, and putting a stop to governmental corruption, I would be hard pressed to believe a 6 or 7th grader even knows what civics means.
:mad:

All the politicians, bureaucrats, mmc owners and "patients" scurrying around trying to justify(the former) and comply with(the latter) the everchanging regulatory schemes just crack me up. Its like watching one of those ant farms. One wonders when one of the ants will look around and say "Hey, wait a minute, this is utterly worthless and is accomplishing nothing. No matter what I do I'm still trapped in here. I elect not to participate any longer." It's just not possible that I'm the only one who sees that this whole fucked-up mess is totally unnecessary. When we, in our understandable haste to agree to ANYTHING that got us closer to legalization, agreed to the phony distinction between "medical" and whatever the alternative is, we sold our souls to the devil. Our invitation to regulation has been accepted with relish. Enjoy, people. I elect not to participate any longer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by senorx12562

All the politicians, bureaucrats, mmc owners and "patients" scurrying around trying to justify(the former) and comply with(the latter) the everchanging regulatory schemes just crack me up. Its like watching one of those ant farms. One wonders when one of the ants will look around and say "Hey, wait a minute, this is utterly worthless and is accomplishing nothing. No matter what I do I'm still trapped in here. I elect not to participate any longer." It's just not possible that I'm the only one who sees that this whole fucked-up mess is totally unnecessary. When we, in our understandable haste to agree to ANYTHING that got us closer to legalization, agreed to the phony distinction between "medical" and whatever the alternative is, we sold our souls to the devil. Our invitation to regulation has been accepted with relish. Enjoy, people. I elect not to participate any longer.

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:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Whew, glad I let my MMJ permit expire a couple of months back!!


I'll definitely be telling all my former patients to do the same.


Releaf has really revealed themselves in here... :wtf::wtf:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kartel

Whew, glad I let my MMJ permit expire a couple of months back!!


I'll definitely be telling all my former patients to do the same.


Releaf has really revealed themselves in here... :wtf::wtf:

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Listen, I'm trying to have a discussion about these issues. Only copobo seems willing to engage. I haven't heard compelling answers or alternatives yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GratefulMeds

...I would be hard pressed to believe a 6 or 7th grader even knows what civics means.

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What are you talking about? Civics are cheap little cars made by Honda....
:jointsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheReleafCenter

Listen, I'm trying to have a discussion about these issues. Only copobo seems willing to engage. I haven't heard compelling answers or alternatives yet.

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The thing to consider with all of the responses though, is how people feel about this. Will it effect their spending habits at your MMC? You don't think so?

isnt all of this basically the same shit that happened in california? they still have their shit together so why are we all so worried? and think about where we all came from, we all started in our closets with small lights, maybe a fan or two, and our biggest worry was being busted by the cops... now its all about following regulation this and DOR that... if all else fails, let your license expire and go back to your roots!

as far as patients going around to several dispensaries and buying the 2 ounce limit, that just screams "legit black market dealer"... and this does need to be taken care of. however, like cob, i frequent a handful of dispensaries to acquire clones of strains I cant get in seed form so I may keep them for my personal medicinal stash for years to come. but I also purchase meds from these places as well, just as any other patient has the right to do, or does regularly. is there anything wrong with that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheReleafCenter

Listen, I'm trying to have a discussion about these issues. Only copobo seems willing to engage. I haven't heard compelling answers or alternatives yet.

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I wish there was a good answer.

Last year at about this time and through Jan I was watching our law makers close.As soon as the first draft(HB1284) was posted I started writing email and letters telling them all to vote no.Not enough of us did so

Where were you and all the rest?

1284 and 109 passed and in july or there abouts YOU ALL SIGHNED AWAY YOUR RIGHTS.

You should have all stood up then.Now how can you.YOU SIGHNED AWAY ALL YOUR RIGHTS

I will say again it realy does not matter if all this tracking really amounts to much or if it is used as a tool to pry deep into our lives, and the worst fears posted on the net become true.

It wont matter becouse a very large amount of MMCs customers will gone just becouse the threat is possible in there eys.You and sertanly not the government will be able to convince them otherwise

Read the comments at the bottem of this Medical marijuana: Health dept. draft rules may not be ready in time for rule-making session - Denver News - The Latest Word


Wsh I had an answer The time to fight was then

Peace:(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by copobo

The thing to consider with all of the responses though, is how people feel about this. Will it effect their spending habits at your MMC? You don't think so?

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I'm a privacy-conscious consumer. Here's how I feel:

The devil is in the details. I believe MMC inventories need to have some minimal level of monitoring. A computer program seems to be a good idea. If such a system tracks my purchases in a non-anonymous manner, I'm concerned. On the other hand, I'm secure in my belief that I am not breaking the law so I wouldn't stop buying from dispensaries for that reason alone. If I were ever visited or harassed by a police officer regarding my cannabis purchase history, I would go litigiously ballistic: MMC, Police, DoR would all get a piece.

That being said, I understand MMCs, and not patients, are the investigtory target of the DoR. I'm not worried yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HighPopalorum

I'm a privacy-conscious consumer. Here's how I feel:

The devil is in the details. I believe MMC inventories need to have some minimal level of monitoring. A computer program seems to be a good idea. If such a system tracks my purchases in a non-anonymous manner, I'm concerned. On the other hand, I'm secure in my belief that I am not breaking the law so I wouldn't stop buying from dispensaries for that reason alone. If I were ever visited or harassed by a police officer regarding my cannabis purchase history, I would go litigiously ballistic: MMC, Police, DoR would all get a piece.

That being said, I understand MMCs, and not patients, are the investigtory target of the DoR. I'm not worried yet.

---

You trust the government far more than most people I know.

Thinking about it , I cant think of a reason to trust them at any level.They have proven to me that they are untrustworthy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by copobo

The thing to consider with all of the responses though, is how people feel about this. Will it effect their spending habits at your MMC? You don't think so?

---

This system isn't even in place yet, no one knows what it looks like or who has access, so the real question is: why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HighPopalorum

I'm a privacy-conscious consumer. Here's how I feel:

The devil is in the details. I believe MMC inventories need to have some minimal level of monitoring. A computer program seems to be a good idea. If such a system tracks my purchases in a non-anonymous manner, I'm concerned. On the other hand, I'm secure in my belief that I am not breaking the law so I wouldn't stop buying from dispensaries for that reason alone. If I were ever visited or harassed by a police officer regarding my cannabis purchase history, I would go litigiously ballistic: MMC, Police, DoR would all get a piece.

That being said, I understand MMCs, and not patients, are the investigtory target of the DoR. I'm not worried yet.

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This, this, and this 100x over.

I didn't even think of tracking simply by MMR# or something else relatively anonymous. I certainly envisioned a system that has automated triggers (buying more than 2 ounces or 6 plants in a day) to catch those abusing the system. Seems much more feasible than having employees watch every MMC transaction in the state.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheReleafCenter

This system isn't even in place yet, no one knows what it looks like or who has access, so the real question is: why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

---

The media have said that they will film the tranactions, IDs , and maybe fingerprints or whatever.It all goes to a data base to be shared between the fed, state and local agentcies.Nothing good can come from that.Who do you think is realy driving the fear?Its the ones who wnat to shut down 80 percent.They tell the media the media prints.Most cannabis users do not trust the government and they know it.First they take your mony and make you sign away your rights then they scrare your customers away.Im not afraid I keep fighting for my rights Im trying keep as many as possible. I have seen first hand how the CBI DEA and Locals get to gether and how they work.It aint purdy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheReleafCenter

This, this, and this 100x over.

I didn't even think of tracking simply by MMR# or something else relatively anonymous. I certainly envisioned a system that has automated triggers (buying more than 2 ounces or 6 plants in a day) to catch those abusing the system. Seems much more feasible than having employees watch every MMC transaction in the state.

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People doing that would get cought soon without the system.I dont think that has ever been much of a problem.They are trying to fix shit that aint broke.Polish a turd to much and it falls apart.Thats what they are doing with the rules pollishing 1284 and 109 both turds

I would have no problem with only the number being tracked.

nothing more than the number and the expiration date of the card is needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by porone

The media have said that they will film the tranactions, IDs , and maybe fingerprints or whatever.It all goes to a data base to be shared between the fed, state and local agentcies.Nothing good can come from that.Who do you think is realy driving the fear?Its the ones who wnat to shut down 80 percent.They tell the media the media prints.Most cannabis users do not trust the government and they know it.First they take your mony and make you sign away your rights then they scrare your customers away.Im not afraid I keep fighting for my rights Im trying keep as many as possible. I have seen first hand how the CBI DEA and Locals get to gether and how they work.It aint purdy

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But your transactions are already recorded at most shops. All of them should have your ID. I haven't seen fingerprinting anywhere, if you could source that I'd appreciate it.

No one knows who has database access yet or at what level. And everyone can agree that law enforcement should have 24/7 access.

MMC's are the ones who should be afraid, not patients. You're right, WE signed away our rights. The Fed wants OUR butts if they hate MMJ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by porone

You trust the government far more than most people I know.

Thinking about it , I cant think of a reason to trust them at any level.They have proven to me that they are untrustworthy

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...and incompetent.

another thing to consider when you think about acceptance of this is the privacy policies of most retailers would not allow this type of information sharing, even about buying normal stuff. Like books or beer or oranges.

Can you imagine if liquor stores thought about having a network to track consumption? Or even ice cream shops? People don't want to be tracked in such a way.

If you want to keep track of valid vs expired or forged cards, just use the number and expiration date.

It seems like a solution looking for a problem to me.

There's nothing in the presentation to indicate they are going to track consumption or patient purchases, anonymously or otherwise. She says she's going to track dispensaries, growers and infused product manufacturers. They're going to crawl up MMCs' asses, but I see little threat to patient privacy. I see no reason to believe this system will provide the government with any information about me not contained in the registry. The rules for LE checking the registry are not changing, (you must be stopped or arrested for police to check your registry status) but only the method and celerity of the check. Giving them the ability to check 24/7 means patients won't be detained pending a registry check, but can be released quickly without further inconvenience.

I think these concerns are unfounded. Unless there's more to the story than is shown in the presentation, all this talk about tracking patient purchases and medical records, and opening up all of that information to various law enforcement organs has been manufactured out of thin air. This is an IT story about integrating two databases and providing police with a means to check them electronically.

It's good that the ACLU is involved, though. Their lawyers are the best in the nation at what they do, and this topic bears on several of their key issues: medical privacy, drug law reform and the privacy problems presented by technology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by copobo

another thing to consider when you think about acceptance of this is the privacy policies of most retailers would not allow this type of information sharing, even about buying normal stuff. Like books or beer or oranges.

Can you imagine if liquor stores thought about having a network to track consumption? Or even ice cream shops? People don't want to be tracked in such a way.

If you want to keep track of valid vs expired or forged cards, just use the number and expiration date.

It seems like a solution looking for a problem to me.

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Most retailers don't sell a schedule 1 drug. Would you be in favor of leo doing stings at mmcs (similar to liquor stores) instead of a confidential database that tracked you by patient number?

Have you read any of the draft rules?

Medical marijuana: See final drafts of documents to regulate Colorado MMJ industry - Denver News - The Latest Word

its way out of crontrol

page 45 deals with camras on the sale and your ID

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheReleafCenter

Most retailers don't sell a schedule 1 drug. Would you be in favor of leo doing stings at mmcs (similar to liquor stores) instead of a confidential database that tracked you by patient number?

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is leo going to start stings at pain clinics? you know, the docs that sling oxy scripts as freely as mj is dispensed at mmcs? that shit will fucken kill you. Cannabis WON'T. We need to keep reminding them of the harmless nature of cannabis. WTF is the need for stings?

It's like tracking peanut butter.

Tracking by MMR# would be a good solution.
Before a purchase, a MMC would scan the card, card info gets sent to the MMR, MMR gives the yea/nay, MMC gets the ok on their monitor. I wouldn't want the database to keep purchases for a long period, but maybe 30 days would work. This makes a lot more sense to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by copobo

is leo going to start stings at pain clinics? you know, the docs that sling oxy scripts as freely as mj is dispensed at mmcs? that shit will fucken kill you. Cannabis WON'T. We need to keep reminding them of the harmless nature of cannabis. WTF is the need for stings?

It's like tracking peanut butter.

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Peanut butter doesn't have a resale value on the street, though. I don't think it's about harm, either. A patient is only allowed to possess two ounces at a time. If someone is buying a pound a day from various MMC's, I think there should be a way to flag them in the system.

@porone: I've read it front to back. It's hard for me to get too worked up over rulemaking sessions, same for the 20 different drafts of 1284. The camera over the sale I believe is just there to verify that the number on the scale is what the MMC is entering into the computer. And once again, everyone is already on camera everywhere they shop.

Once again, what do you think they're going to do with this information? Selectively prosecute you at a federal level for small amounts of cannabis? Leak your name to your insurance company? It all seems far fetched to me.

And once again (again), I'd be much more concerned about a poorly run shop having this information than the Department of Revenue. Poor internet security, a break in or a change in ownership can all lead to your confidential information being released.

Releaf
I hope all best for all good MMCs
I have a freind of almost 30 years that owns one

Who really goes to MMCs and buys that much?There is no mony in it.Most rec users can buy high quallity on the street cheaper.Before 1284 that was not as true but it is now

Someone said something about the ACLU
Spying on First Amendment Activity - State-by-State | American Civil Liberties Union
Nah the government does not spy on citizens

Maybe there aren't a lot of people that buy that much. All the more reason I don't care if they track what I purchase: I'm not breaking the law. Additionally, there are a lot of people out there "shop hopping" and changing over caregiver rights multiple times a day. If you sign up ten centers and get a free eighth a month, that's almost a free pound every year. I get more calls about what we give away for free for signing up today than anything else. That should be monitored.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheReleafCenter

Peanut butter doesn't have a resale value on the street, though. I don't think it's about harm, either. A patient is only allowed to possess two ounces at a time. If someone is buying a pound a day from various MMC's, I think there should be a way to flag them in the system.

@porone: I've read it front to back. It's hard for me to get too worked up over rulemaking sessions, same for the 20 different drafts of 1284. The camera over the sale I believe is just there to verify that the number on the scale is what the MMC is entering into the computer. And once again, everyone is already on camera everywhere they shop.

Once again, what do you think they're going to do with this information? Selectively prosecute you at a federal level for small amounts of cannabis? Leak your name to your insurance company? It all seems far fetched to me.

And once again (again), I'd be much more concerned about a poorly run shop having this information than the Department of Revenue. Poor internet security, a break in or a change in ownership can all lead to your confidential information being released.

---

That's because peanut butter is regulated as food, not as the most dangerous substance known to man, as cannabis is. I think you are on the wrong side of the chicken/egg problem. It's the regulation that causes the black market, not the black market causing the need for regulation. I'd bet my bottom dollar that peanut butter causes more deaths than cannabis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheReleafCenter

Couple things. First, you're not held hostage by an MMC, you can visit whoever you want. You may not get the caregiver benefits from the new place, but it is what it is. It's going to encourage people to be more judicious in who they select as their center/caregiver, which is a good thing.

Second, I don't think that this system is designed to go "Wow, John Doe bought an eighth on Monday and then ANOTHER on Friday!" They don't have time to do that. I think they're looking for people who are buying their maximum two ounces from multiple shops, changing their primary caregiver/center all the time, etc. There has to be some safeguard against those kinds of abuses.

Lastly, who do you think is going to release this information? There are steep penalties, not to mention the law suit you'd be able to file. I keep hearing people talk about this list as if it's going to be published in this Sunday's Denver Post. It's all still held confidentially. I'd jump for joy if the state leaked anything related to status as a patient, same for my lawyer.

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how nice...you can afford a lawyer. ya know some are sick and distressed, others live off sub-prime incomes...lawyers and courts not going to happen. the simple fact is this...IT SHOULDNT BE ILLEGAL AT ALL. shop hoppers can go broke buying meds but obviously they make more money than i or the aforementioned. this is humanity, everybody out for themselves.

The problem with "Shop Hoppers" is not the bargains that they receive. It is the exposure to being over plant count when they don't let you know that they changed to another center.

MMC's, and caregivers for that matter, have no means to verify their plant counts other than the patient's word.

It's fairly dicey to gamble a prison stint based on somebody's desire to get a free gram.

they should simply disconnect the plant counts via patients for mmc's paying their fees. Besides the caregiver hopping, I think the patient hording is bad for patients. The centers should concentrate on the patients and the 1284 regs.

patients and caregivers are a private relationship.

what will happen when significant responsibility for the well being of a patient includes things the mmc can't do? Those counts are tied to being a caregiver!

editorial from: Proper pot rules and an overreach - Boulder Daily Camera

"Nonsense: The Colorado Department of Revenue`s Medical Marijuana Advisory Board has included in its proposal for regulations an idea to have the entire registry of medical marijuana users available to law enforcement 24/7. Considering that marijuana use is still illegal under federal law, we urge the state to dump this suggestion. We`re not talking about people in custody, someone who has crashed their car, or people who have been caught with marijuana who need to have the legality of their usage checked with the state: We`re talking about everyone. This flies in the face of the intent of the constitutional law. Law-abiding Coloradans are entitled to keep their health information private."

unfortunately they also like the DUI one. go make comment!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheReleafCenter

This system isn't even in place yet, no one knows what it looks like or who has access, so the real question is: why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

---

why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

Stories like the one posted above

They will keep fix n it till broke

Quote:

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Originally Posted by porone

why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

Stories like the one posted above

They will keep fix n it till broke

---

Yeah relief must feel nice and cozy behind their lawyers.

Thank You Releaf Center!
I am a dispensary center...not too far from you. But thank you for speaking your opinions from a MMC stand point. Everything you said I agree with 100% I think a lot of people don't realize what our lives are like. I don't think they know what our overhead is, what we deal with day to day and how much we have sacrificed. If dispensaries don't have quality meds then they will be shutting down soon and some already have.
People are able to get up in the morning in their pajamas and walk to a MMC and get grass, I would have KILLED for this when I was a young prat. People don't even know what they have!
Even in Amsterdam the cops come barging in, I don't think people know this. I was sitting in the gray area one time and the cops came raiding and gave them a ticket just for having the door propped open.
There's only so much complaining you can do when you are allowed to smoke and posess for free, I don't get it. Yeah I agree that it's an invasion of privacy and what not...but still! IT'S LEGAL.
And you can thank the private home grown caregivers that were growing and not paying sales tax for HB 1284...thanks a lot!

anyways, I just wanted to say that I have customers that are your patients and they always have good things to say about you. I am glad you are hear letting the MMJ Community know what it's like from a MMC standpoint. I've been stressed out for a year and have had about 3 days off. You also had a great review on the westword-keep it up!