More pics :D The last two are the 9 and 5-clone buckets under 50w panels. The 9 bucket still has about 6 weeks or so to go, the 5 bucket maybe 4.
About two weeks left for the main stuff!
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More pics :D The last two are the 9 and 5-clone buckets under 50w panels. The 9 bucket still has about 6 weeks or so to go, the 5 bucket maybe 4.
About two weeks left for the main stuff!
I had to get a size comparison shot for everyone, so I used my D-cell flashlight.
Flashlight-sized cola. Not bad for a dense mother plant. The other colas are so heavy (and the branches so thin) that they lay out like a carpet almost.
Microscopic views show lots of cloudy, and some amber starting to pop up. Looks like I'll be on-time for harvest at the end of week 9 instead of week 10. I'll start the flush on Sunday.
If one were shopping for LED lighting, what would look for or ask for or otherwise be aware of to ensure they were getting "SMT diodes"?? Also, are there LED panels that lean either way by design to either the blue or red ends of the color spectrum?? Lastly, I hear things like "tri-band" and "UFO" and "muti-band" (or something) and such, any English translations??Quote:
Originally Posted by khyberkitsune
:rastasmoke:
It's easy to tell a surface-mounted diode. They're the only type used in quality panels. Any UFO panel is using SMD (SMT is surface-mount technology, SMD is surface-mount diode) and thus you have a panel using SMT. SMT is the class of technology, SMD is a type of that tech. Cell phones are one example of things that use a lot of SMT, laptops are another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirker
In my personal opinion, avoid white diodes in any panel. Quad band versus tri-band, as far as I've seen there's no notable difference, and I've really seen no difference versus panels that add UV or IR to the mix. Avoid 7:1:1 ratios like the plague (panels that lean too heavily towards red,) you want panels with more balance. Don't get greater than 120 degree beam angle, and don't get narrower than 45 degree unless you're wanting to focus all of your power into a narrow space for a small amount of larger plants.
tri-band means three specific wavelengths are targeted. UFO is just a sort of light that's round and was called the UFO light originally.
If you go for blue-heavy panels, make sure blue is no higher than 60% of the overall amount of light. You still need red for flowering.
happy growing!
Can't wait until LEDs are good at flowering. I really hate HID.
They're good enough for flowering as-is. I've got colas so heavy on one of my mother plants that that one proud-standing cola next to the flashlight in a prior pic has finally fallen over as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by neceros
Rock hard, not fluffy.
Just depends on how deep you want to flower.
Wow, lots of info there :stoned:Quote:
Originally Posted by khyberkitsune
Could you discuss this ratio(s) and your definition of balance??
Also, could you explain the thinking on the 2nd point, I mean if LED's are weaker at flowering wouldn't you want MORE red????? :wtf:
:thumbsup: I ask because I'm interested...LED's have some serious safety advantages it seems :)
I did a check under the microscope. They're about 15% amber and totally cloudy the rest of the way, so I've done a pre-trim for tomorrow's harvest.
9-10 week strain, finished in 8 weeks 2 days.
The biggest plant had colas so heavy that we had issues trimming the fan leaves off of her. We'd get her stood up and supported, get about half the leaves off one cola, and the plant would flop in the opposite direction. This went on about eight different times with this plant.
And these babies are ULTRA frosty.
I've run tests under blue-dominant LED lighting and have found no major difference in mass, just in trichome density.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirker
The ratio I cannot discuss too much as it's a result of my company research. Needless to say I emulate the sun as closely as I can with the few wavelengths I use.
You want a good deal of red, yes, but you want blue for bulk production, and also blue penetrates better than red. Blue light is what is responsible for powering a majority of growth processes. Red is responsible for powering flower development. Notice how the blue poor panels tend to produce fluffy buds in most grow attempts? Once you put major power like 300w into the equation that's not too much of an issue but still part of the problem. My fresh pre-trim stuff is hard. I can thump it and it makes a decent sound against my fingernail.
The safety advantages abound, indeed. Near-nil IR signature, no UV (none required with my design anyways,) higher efficiencies at lower power, no burning parts, safe to spray treatments without fear of burning plants while lights are on, less stress on your electrical system due to lowered energy requirements from both lighting and through reduced cooling requirements.
Other advantages include customizability, ease of installation, compact size, some models lack external ballasts (some lights require them,) lifespan, and quiet operation. Then power savings are nice as well.
Oh, and avoid the hype of 90w = 400w HPS - that's only true for the vegetative phase. When you hit flowering, minimum 200w to match 400w HPS.
Hanging up to dry. I'm estimating about 3oz dry.
You reap what you grow! :smokin:
Ken:thumbsup:
Hello!
Just joined the forums and I've been reading lots of journals etc. I was sold on a PC Case with CFL's but now I'm thinking LEDs might be the way to go for heat reasons etc. It's hot where I live (Florida) and my place is small and my A/C is never below 75. So here are my questions.
Will this UFO:
High Tech Garden Supply
Work in this cabinet?:
IKEA | Workspace storage | Drawer units | HELMER | Drawer unit on casters
Width: 11 "
Depth: 16 3/4 "
Height: 27 1/8 "
So slightly more roomy than a pc (certainly taller). I saw your micro grow outgrow your pc case is why I ask.
My goal is for personal use ONLY for my wife and I. I plan to use soil (square pots) and will use scrog or LST, I'll start with auto flowering stuff like easyrider. If my case/light suggestions are retarded please say so and any options/opinions are welcome! I'd like 1 LED light that will go from seed to harvest if that's realistic. Looking at the Ikea cab so it's stealth (matches the cab my wife uses for crafts) and our entire apt is only 600+ sq feet so it's gotta be small.
ps. I have never grown anything but my hair.
Thank you for all of your help and I'll be following your journals for sure! Once I figure it all out I'll do a journal too.
I've used HTG lights - not the right spectrum. I'll go ahead and say I am biased since I run my own horticultural LED company, but from personal testing with HTG (I used them almost exclusively before I went my own route, so no disrespect to them,) their tri-band can't compete with mine. There is a reason they are selling theirs for so cheap.
HTG also says they have a PHD recommending their spectrum, yet they will *NEVER* give the person's name nor any published papers, not even a doctoral thesis. This alone tells me to stay away. I'll tell you off the bat I have only a GED and an incomplete college education, but I've been growing plants for over two decades, and in college i supplemented that with optical physics. I also have a MAJOR background in semiconductor electronics and thus I've got way more of an advantage versus a PHD in a purely horticultural field, as they have no idea what makes a diode do what it does.
My no-BS attitude and admissions are what got me a director of research position for a multi-national corporate conglomerate. I'm one of the few people on this planet that can produce useful crops with no light at all. Let's see any other lighting company provide that.
My job is to put people in space. What is the competition doing to provide such a future for mankind?
:jointsmile: Reps bro,... Check'em;):jointsmile:Quote:
Originally Posted by khyberkitsune
Thanks for the feedback! So what lights would you recommend then? What brand? Link to where I can buy? Is 90w enough for my space? You used 50w in a smaller space and thought it was overkill in your pc right? Thanks again for sharing your expertise.
Let's remove myself from the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by booboo2
The lights that perform like mine have been customized by members of this board - Weezard, Stra8outtaweed, etc. They're on par with what works. We all aim to make LED a viable solution without all the marketing hype and nonsense.
In my PC case, I had not enough airflow and the rising heat caused major pH swings. I think I would have been okay had I been able to keep the temps down inside the case. A single 120mm just wasn't cutting it after I started flowering, I really needed an intake and exhaust fan, not just an intake.
A 90w panel would barely fit inside that case and would likely provide some thermal management issues. A 50w panel would be better, just on the square footage area alone (1.28 square foot footprint.)
Any further questions, we're happy to help you!
Here's a question: Why a PC case? I don't quite see the advantages.
People use pc case for stealth... But I've moved away from that idea and found the ikea cabinet that provides more room and will be even more stealth in my place.
@khyberkitsune are you saying the 90w is too much for the ikea cab? Or that it would have been too much for your case you used. I plan to install two 80mm fans, 1 in 1 out.
I am not finding any 50w panels that are commercially available with good reviews/grow journal proof. The htg 90w comes highly reccomended on other boards is why it has my attention.
Any better products out there you can link me to?
I'm just saying the 90w would barely fit in your case. It would fit, but a couple of sides will have blocked airflow due to the one narrow dimension.Quote:
Originally Posted by booboo2
Two 80mm fans might work if you've got the airflow set.
I've had plenty of good results so far with LED. I do artificially limit myself with a very basic and slightly incomplete nutrient mix, so I don't pull massive yields, but if I eliminated that minor detail and used more than just FloraMicro and FloraBloom, I would pull much better yields.
If you want my exact panel, specified by me, you'll have to get it from the ecogroled website.
I used to use HTG almost exclusively, FYI. Good stuff except for the LED panels.
Buds clipped from stems, one more day of drying out and then it's jar time.
Before de-stemming, 70g. After, 41g. So less than two ounces of buds.
I'm still waiting on the sugar leaf to finish drying so I have a final yield from that, and I need to hash up the fan leaves that I saved due to the stems being coated in trichomes.
Final weight results coming.
Have a macro shot while we wait!
Looks yummy.
Time will tell. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by neceros
It was quite delicious, and also, it was quite rapidly GONE, as a friend liked it so much he traded me my entire crop for a full QP of GDP, plus tons of fresh genetics that he's spent several years getting stabilized.Quote:
Originally Posted by canniwhatsis
I still have the krusty bucket going - the central cola is just HUGE, about 15-18 inches.
8 clones was definitely too much - looks like 4 clones per approximate square foot is the max.
And as soon as I'm done with this bucket (or maybe before) I'm pushing my NFT system into the closet. I finally got my channels, and lids, and I've been busy getting them prepped for use. Pic included!
One clone was too weak, and had to be pulled out. The central cola is so heavy that it fell towards the blank spot, which I don't mind as that leaves more room for the other colas.
Now I know 4 is about the best I can do in a bucket that size.
The central cola is so huge, it is 15 inches tall from the bottom buds to the top. The bottom is about as wide as my fist bud-wise, and the tip is almost 50% larger than the width of my thumb.
I can't wait. Once this has been pulled, I'm going to have 5 NFT channels in there. I'll do a rotation with these, as well.
I think I can squeeze 5 channels into a 4 gallon bucket. I just need to do some creative lid work.
I'd really like to see some good genetics under the LED's for bloom. I've heard that HID buds are fatter and more productive, and the ghetto genetics make it look that much worse. :(
I'm using the 120w panel I got from you in my veg area, and it rocks! I have a patient now, and might be ordering another panel if everything else falls in line.:thumbsup::jointsmile:
Pic 1: My tomato under LED!
Pic 2: HID Blueberry day 27.
The panels most certainly rock hard during veg. I've got a new box that will soon become a new flowering chamber once the current plants in the box recover from the nasty heat wave we had this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by canniwhatsis
BTW nice flower on the tomato plant. Looks rather large. Nice buds, too.
I'm not sure where best to talk with you about your LED experience. I wonder if you could sum up where your at in LED tech right now. You can keep the science in ur head as I trust your the expert. What I want is your opinion on what to be looking for if I were to go the LED route. I live in a place where heat is a bad issue about 8 months out of the year. I am also growing in a confined place which has a 4' vertical limit as I also choose to clone and raise mothers lower down in the same place. For now the system is stable, but man oh man is my electric bill a bitch. I have to run ac to the space nearly 24 hours a day, exhaust fans, duct fans, all of it to cool off my 600 watt HPS.
Having grown with vegged with T5's for a few months, I'm starting to really appreciate the benefits of lower heat and less electricity. I'd like to see about replacing my 600hps with either T5's or LED's for flowering too, but I'm too afraid I wouldn't replicate what I have or at least close to it. I probably have too much light given the space, which is 2x3x36-40" (which is max height I will let them get). I know both tech's tend not to radiate light which IMO makes them all the better suited for situations where you have a limited floor space footprint.
Are LED's still cost prohibitive for the average Joe? Which paths should I be researching. Maybe T5's are the better solution since I know enough about them to create them from scratch and I know they are nearly as cheap as LED's and likely nearly as effective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodaytrader
I'm using LED for veging, since that's where it really rocks out:cool: The 120w LED certainly whooped up on the 400w Hortilux "Blue" MH I was running. the peppers STOPED stretching, the MJ slowed down on the stretch, and tightened up node spacing. So at least for veg, I'd agree with the statement of 120w LED = 600w HID.
I'd say looking at your setup in your log that the LED's would be fine for the area your flowering. I'm flowering about the same size space, (taller ceiling and a foot longer 33x53x72") under only 400w HPS I'm not packing plants in there like that, but there isn't much room for sure. Heat isn't as much an issue as I'm sure your having, but it's enough that I'm air cooling my light, I can get my hand about 2" away before I really start feeling heat, but the LED I can actually touch the glass (Not that I recommend it, but I had to try! :stoned: ) and only feel warmth! :rastasmoke:
I haven't tried flowering under LED, might do a side by side sometime in the future depending on how things pan out. I've heard that LED produces smaller/denser buds than HID, some consider it a good thing. At least one local grower I've spoken to say's it's more about better quality vs higher quantity.
As for price,... expect to pay around $300-350 for something to replace your 600,... and prices for the even larger panels (1000w equivalent) I've heard can verge on 1k! :eek: It's spendy, but figure the life span is several times longer, and power use is considerably less.
so 120 input watts is about the size of a 400 watt hps give or take. I understand the math may be fuzzy for this discussion.
Next question: do you change the spectrum around or just stick with 3000k. Do LED's even have a color temperature similar to T5's or HPS? Besides the color what type or size LED is best to consider, or does the 120watt figure pretty much assume a certain LED size? I keep hearing different stuff about 3 watt lED's vs 1 Watt. Just not sure what to look for in the actual LED itself, not that I intend to build it, I just want to make sure whatever fixture I pick has the right LED inside and the right colors.
There I can't help you, I'm no tech, just reporting my opinion and limited experience.
I've heard the 3w LED's are better than 1w, and anything less than 1w is junk no matter how many they pack in there. Something to do with the spread of the light emission too. But again, I'm not a tech and this is pretty much just hearsay.
As far as the spectrum, not certain here (not a tech guru), but they only emit one wavelength of light per LED, so it's not really a ??whatever??k light. It's 660 nanometer or 430nm or whatever, per any given LED.
The one I have has 3 bandwidths of light,(red, red/orange, and blue) and to the human eye seems purple. Plants look black under it. Any problems seem to magnify, a slightly yellowed leaf under HID looks white under LED and is easy to spot. Again tho, this is just my experience after the first 2 weeks under LED for veg.
Perhaps Kitsune can help enlighten as to more detail there. The exact science would be interesting to know.
Sorry I haven't been around. I'm working on new panels with 100w diodes in them and :D I had to go to the optometrist to get special temporary glasses because my dumb ass stared at it for too long. I'm better now!
Anyways, for me, I'm perfectly content with what gets grown under my LEDs. Right now, the tech is most certainly out there and surpassing T5 units as long as they are properly configured. Poor configuration = poor performance. Don't count on HID being 'out' just yet, as we're still waiting on 150+ lux/w outside of the lab.
For now, at the current level of LED tech, 300w LED ~= 600w HID for flowering/fruiting. 120w LED ~= 600w HID for veg. As long as you distribute it around and keep your plants smaller, you can actually yield more as you've got more canopy of cola.
In fact, I'm about to take maximum advantage of that sort of situation in my growing area - I've just finished working on a new SoG system. Here is a picture for you.
Overall, LED is pretty much 'there.' but you have to find the right people that know what they're doing. Once the tech gets good enough, any Joe Schmoe can pick up a white panel and grow whatever they wish better than an HID.
And Canna's correct, there is no 'color temperature' to speak of. If you wanted a relative value, 12,000K minimum minus green is a good approximation.
do you think if a plant gets to much light it will turn leaves white and die.i had lites at 14 inches away is that to close
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddaj
Yes, that is called light bleaching, and typically that only happens with HID lamps. As to the distance, that depends on the light that you're using.
It only took just a few days for everything to go from cloudy to about 30% amber so it's chop time!
Oh yes, nice HEAVY buds.
The biggest one, from the beginning of the bud to the tip, is 14 inches long, average two inches across.
Best harvest yet and still improving! Everything so far has been mostly testing and experimentation, now the NFT setup is ready to roll and I should be producing spears like this non-stop, I just need to get clones going.
Also, I have a new mother plant, GDP. Looks like I'll be mixing up my batches, two rows of HS and two rows of GDP.
I certainly hope your GDP is better than mine was! My indoor girls have been hermi prone and low yielders. My outdoor plant is almost 6' tall and about 3 weeks into bud, No hermi's so far and it might be ok,... if it follows the indoor plants for yield, I'd say 1/2lb harvest late october. (cutting really close to the first freeze where I'm at! :eek: )
I've culled the strain due to hermi mom, but I've got lots of beans and am going to try it again from seed. It's not a high yield, but it packs a punch for what it gives you,... and my "crummy" harvests have garnered me 2 patients now! :cool:
I'm veging under the 120w LED I got from you, tho most of the plants had several months under HID before I switched. I"m watching my new Durban clone to see exactly what the LED does vs HID (I've veged plenty of clones under HID, and know how they act) So far I like it! :thumbsup:
I'll be watching for the GDP grow. :D
Oh yes, as soon as this clone becomes mom-ready it's on. That will be a couple of weeks, so I'm going to go ahead and get some fresh clones of the HS rooting out while I wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by canniwhatsis
And I have these two clones that have rooted. Dunno what to do with them yet. Might drop in a small bucket. Might redo that Krusty Bucket right fast and just do two clones under 50w LED in that bucket.
Well, turns out the clones I got have spidermites. Time for a pyrethrum spray and then double-up with a dichlorvos strip.
That Sux man! Hope they didn't get on anything else you have going. :(
Nope, just only on the clones I had procured. My Hindu moms in soil are fine, so far (I went over them with a magnifying glass last night.)Quote:
Originally Posted by canniwhatsis
Well this thread is making me a lil freaked....story.. Me and good friend that lives up the street are both growing...an we made a "friendly bet" for yields. I'm using a single cooltube with a 600w hps hort-blue and six plants...he has 4 25 watt all red led 1x1 panels, a 2 6 band "blue/red" 1x1 panels. He's also waiting on his 250w 6 band panel. He's got six going into flower also.
I thinking im gonna get my ass handed to me....LOL
Oh well it's all good fun:thumbsup: