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There is an excellent trilogy of books that deals with just that subject. It's called The Hammer and the Cross by Harry Harrison. It's about the clash between the gods of the Norse and Yahweh in post-Roman Britain. I highly recommend it, but not necessarily for Christians as it would probably make them angry.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegrown
the lessons we can learn from religion are of an ethical nature and, while remembering that morality is not the sole domain of religion, they should not be discounted entirely. the virtues of charity, sacrifice and duty that are extolled throughout many sacred texts should be used to temper the harsh realities of science. though such virtues may be derived from other sources, for many religion is the main example through which their morality is formed. damning religion entirely for the abuses and ignorance of the few is as disingenuous as refusing science for its clinical outlook.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
say what you want and try and hide behind all your big words. but simply put. SCIENCE PROVES there is something that created us... you can trace it all the way back to DNA... and YES, DNA WAS CREATED, not just magically appeared. Most of the smartest and famous scientist will even come to grips... THIS WAS NO ACCIDENT... WE WERE CREATED!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity
A wise man knows he knows nothing! I will leave you atheists with that!!!
well then since i did not say my life is worthless since that is the furthest thing from what i feel... you should re-read what i wrote and try again on your assumptions. i didn't say there is no reason to live. i gave you many reasons why i believe life is the greatest thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
to assume life is worthless because we don't live forever... i don't follow your logic at all. i guess belief is a better word since it is not logical but purely emotional.
so we have come full circle, as such discussions always do. that a mind designed to recognize patterns might find patterns all around is taken as proof of some intelligent designer. our hubris, in anthropomorphizing the world around us, leads us to imagine a sentience behind all of the variables that have led to life. if these fantasies were not so wide spread they would be considered nothing more than the delusions of a tin foil clad conspiracy nut.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
I didn't mean that religion had no knowledge, however, moral knowledge is something that every thinking being has anyway IMHO. Religion encourages it's followers to not let anything interfere with their faith. Passively, they encourage followers to ignore any information that gives doubts (i.e. - practically anything not church approved). More aggressive practices involve trying to ban certain books, music, arts, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity
Well buddy I have not banned ANYTHING AT ALL in my knowledge. NO BOOKS, MUSIC, ARTS, etc. and neither did guys like Einstein, Newton, Yockey, etc. ALL came up with pretty much the same conclusion... WE WERE CREATED... According to "natural laws" of science that we LIVE by today, it's techniclly IMPOSSIBLE for this to be some random sort of accident... DNA was CREATED and this universe was "fine tuned" SO much that it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be some sort of random act... IT IS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THIS UNIVERSE and DNA to create itself!!!! You might wanna look some of this stuff up before trying to argue about it... Just face the music all you atheists... there IS something "greater" than yourself out there... SCIENCE even proves it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
First of all, I never said you personally banned anything, however your religion is another matter. I won't try to reason with you any further, because you aren't interested in reason. You are either a completely gone zealot or a troll. Either way there is nothing to be gained.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P47OC439x88
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
HAHA!!! I WIN!!! I FINALLY WIN!!! I will definitly remember this moment for a while!!!!! It just feels so good! I gotta celebrate :jointsmile:
uh huh... u win.... cause everyone thinks you are being number then a pounded thumb. great victory to remember.
-J
Trolls get a weird sort of satisfaction. How long can they string folks along.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegrown
I get satisfaction from allowing them to demonstrate their idiocy. I figured a long time ago he was either a troll or he was actually about 10 years old. His last post confirmed one or the other. ;)
but the hope always remains that such folks will actually come up with something new. they seldom do, but it's always worth a shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
the strangest part of this for me is that i'm actually defending religion on another forum and i keep confusing the two threads. every time i post in either i have to read back to remember where i am. yes, i am a bit psychotic.:D
Sometimes it's fun to play devils advocate :D:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity
I already told you that I am 20. But the reason I said that, my not so smart freind, is because you lack to bring ANYTHING somewhat resourcful with what you say. I'm backing EVERYTHING I say up with facts. You and your posse on the other hand... ehhh not so much! hehe... You guys are literlly backing out of this debate... CUZ YOUVE BEEN HAD!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
Let's just put it this way. There is no theory in the history of science that has more holes, problems or detractors than Neo-Darwinism. Itâ??s the most troubled theory in all of science. The best evidence for this comes from a most curious place: Stephen Meyerâ??s recent book â??Signature in the Cell.â? I suggest that you and your posse of atheists go and READ the book so you can get some basic knowlege of what DNA really is and how it works.
Just like the Berlin Wall back in '89, Darwinism will FALL in the near future. It will FINALLY be silenced FOR GOOD.
"The wall will fall. Beliefs become reality."
Track down some Egyptian texts on Metaphysics. It's what Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam are based upon. Those folks had enough information about the formation of the universe, that we are still using their Mathematics, Astronomy, and Physics concepts to this day. Please become informed, then decide what you think is going on, then get more informed, dump your previous notions and enjoy the ride of conscious, unending, evolution!
That's what you have to add to this. Nothing. Troll somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
hey at least he is only on this one thread... keep him here, cause if i find him spamming my log im gonna flip...
and 20 y.o chris... wake the fuck up man... god aint real he is a figment of your imaination... the human mind is VERY good at seeing patterns... like one in OUR DNA...
-J
For all those who dont believe in God give me some good explanations why you dont, and ill give you some reasons i do.
Sit in a room where no one will bother you open your heart to Jesus and talk to him thats his number just pray, i've felt his holy spirit every time i pray every time i sing his song or simply just the act of sharing his word.\
Whats the feeling you ask well for me its the warmest most loving and most joyest feeling in the world and before anyone chimes in with their two cents about how this feelings can be from something else you try.
Plus everyone who dont believe in the Bible or God just cuz it was written along time ago, your basically telling me that everything in the history books didnt happen just because it took place before our time, I mean theres alot of people who saw Jesus and witnessed his miracles, but i guess there will always be haters n those tricked by satan him self
Religion....a carry over from the Dark Ages or latent human superstition that something has to be greater then they are. And, they are correct. Its the physical universe, not some [I]guy in the sky[I]watching and recording and creating every and anything. From the state of the world, one would have to believe they were a psychopath to create and observe constantly a world like ours!!!!! :D
and where is your response brainiac? what are you adding to this?? NOTHING but your "smart aleck" remarks thats what!!! I know you feel backed in a corner because you cannot come up with ONE good scientific reason to support your thesis!!!!! instead of bashing what I say,, maybe you can come up with a counter-argument?... o wait,, you already tried that... THANK YOU, COME AGAIN!Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
I didnt know that proving atheist all over the world wrong was considered "spamming"!!! darn.. i think i might want to find a better job than..Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegrown
listen here buddy, I"M the one whos awake.. YOUR sleeping... Time for you to read up on SCIENCE and awaken that brain of yours,, cuz by ALL means.. SCIENCE PROVES A GOD (or creator)... I mean, if you can find a code that is created by a natural process than you can disprove my theory... If you can't, well than your stumped... like ALL atheists!
Counter arguments don't work with trolls. I noticed you haven't even disputed that you are one. I've already presented logic which you ignore and you haven't addressed even once the questions I've asked you. You just make claims, without a shred of backup, with the sole intent of agitating. Again, prime behavior of a troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
You're wasting your time here troll.
I don't believe in god because I've never seen a shred of hard evidence. I'm glad you find solace in your faith. I can't have that faith because I'm a born skeptic. I require proof and there is none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richol
Besides, even if there was a god, doesn't mean that it's your god does it?
STILL no counter-argument??... I'm starting to get suspicious on who's REALLY the troll in here... lol *shakes head while laughing*Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
Answer my question. Have you ever read the entire bible?Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
i have a couple times and i find it is a great read...full of wisdom and most of the rules that it outlines make sense if you can get past all the god-bullshit....
only thing that i dont get is how people can think that a book written by a MAN could be taken as the word of GOD???
chris answer.. how can you prove there IS a god... scientifically please bro.. no more of this DNA BS either.. i looked into that and almost everyone in the field seems to think that that is a big ass load of BS written by someone with an agenda to push.. not an impartial third party.
prove that if there is a god that it is YOURS and not mine and also prove that you are not a troll by doing so in a non-confrontational manner please..
-J
what do you mean none of that DNA BS?? how is DNA BS?? DNA is purely scientific and obviously is a code. Well.. if YOU can tell me one NATURAL PROCESS that creates coded information than you can discount EVERYTHING I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegrown
not entirely from front to back.. however, I have gone over the entire bible and I have a pretty good amount of knowlege on itQuote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
i think that trying to say that DNA is a code that was ARTIFICIALLY created is bs... there are many codes that are naturally created. look up info on the Fibonacci sequence and tell me that there are not naturally created codes and i wont talk anymore..
many things in nature SEEM to be 'created' because they have a sense of 'order'.. it is just that doing things the 'right' way often seems to the human mind to be 'created' because it isnt the way WE would do it but it works better than the way we WOULD do it so we think that it HAS to be a 'greater mind'/'supreme being' when in reality the 'perfect nature' is just the result of millions of years of trial and error..
so i can say that DNA being a 'created code' is bs because i cant see any proof that it was more than the result of many errors and cullings.. and the end result is US!!
and if dna were to be 'created' by god.. and god created us in his image and he gave us dna but he also gave dna to all of the other plants and animals then how can we claim to be the end all be all greatest thing.. and how can you think that you have the right to do anything to our mother the earth?? if your god created the earth and you believe that your god is so powerful then why is there direct evidence of evolution.. in the form of fossils and such of EXTINCT animals that died out because they were NOT perfect..
sorry if my thoughts are a bit disorganized i am testing a friends crop and its GREAT
-J
I think you fail to realise that the Christian concept of 'God' is also a theory and no less full of contradiction than any other theory of existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
Maybe the reason I don't, as you say, 'understand and accept' the Christian creation myth is because I did not have it, or any other dogma, rammed down my throat during during my formative years.
I think that is a distinct possibility.
same here maam... no one forced shit down my throat and i feel just fine about it.. my family is all about doing what YOU believe in not what they think you SHOULD believe in. i happen to share their views but they let me come to that conclusion by MYSELF.. thank you very much..Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah louise
-J
so when you say "Fibonacci sequence" Im guessing your relating to bee waggles and tree rings for the most part and yes! your right,these things are most certainly codes. but they derive from DNA, and therefore don't count as examples of naturally occurring codes, since DNA has not been proven to have a naturalistic origin.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainegrown
Do you know the origin of Jehovah? Jah, or the mighty Lord and God from the various Bibles that have been edited by no less than King James of England, came from a time when the Jewish folk were separated into various tribes throughout the desert. Jehovah was just one of many Gods. The whole "monotheistic" conquering Lord who is the one and only God is a misinterpretation of some Egyptian texts, misread by Greek scholars, then turned into a hybrid religion of the Roman/Pagan Christians. It was a combination of so many elements, all of which are derived from a polytheistic religious base. What if Jesus is actually the story of an Egyptian Pharaoh, and his story was stolen and mutilated to fit the pantheon of a conquering Roman war machine?Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
Here's a postulation for you.....
What if Nature is the supreme being? What if Nature encoded into Humanity, this concept of God, to ensure the survival of a race, that without some sort a Higher Power to reconcile with, would destroy themselves entirely? What if some people have this code deeply engraved in their DNA through the ages, and others have evolved differently. Neither is wrong, Neither is right. Both are just part of a whole. One side ensures technological advancement increases, along with scientific achievement, and the other attempts to bring an internal awareness, along with a rooted base in worshiping life, and being compassionate. Of course these two examples are very open ended, and black & white. The grey area is much larger in the Human species.
Saying "DNA" has to be created is merely a variation on "the universe" has to be created. There is no proof that it was created, just the opinion. I don't have to disprove this claim, because it has not been proven to anyone's satisfaction except those who want it to be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
I guess I knew that would be your answer. How can you run your life and all that you believe from a book you've never read in it's entirety?!? It's mind boggling.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
You have a pretty good amount of knowledge on it?!? You've gone over the entire bible? As opposed to reading it? What does that even mean? Oh, your pastor has gone over it for you. So where does your certainty come from? I'll tell you. Indoctrination and brain washing. Really read the entire book from cover to cover and you will experience a lot of doubt. Trust me on this.
Or you can keep to the 10 or 12 bible versus your pastor had you memorize to bother non-christians with. Whatever.
after having read the sacred texts of many of the world's religions, i have found they all have one thing in common. they are all as open to interpretation as any other writing. even the language they are written in is merely a translation (an interpretation) from another language in most cases. though a christian may claim his faith is based on the words of the bible or a muslim may cite the koran as the impetus for his chosen way of life, it is always someone else's interpretation they are placing their trust in. merely reading the words is not enough, one must be able to suspend their disbelief in order to fully accept what we all know is nothing more than a collection of the words of man. the claims of burning bushes, mysterious golden plates and divine inspiration are merely tools we use to allow us to suspend our disbelief and immerse ourselves in the improbable.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
our friend chris has obviously done quite a good job of suspending his disbelief. he has done such a good job of it that he is able to transfer his resulting faith from the ethical disciplines of religion to the more tangible areas of scientific endeavor. he is willing to invest himself in the improbable and rather contradictory concept that the appearance of code-like behavior implies a sentient force behind the creation of our dna. he disingenuously asks us to cite any example of code that is not engineered by a higher intelligence, but we must use his definition of code and he will always have a way out by merely stating that all of nature is a part of the creation of his god. there are codes within the songs of birds and the petals of flowers because a code is nothing more than the representation of concepts we understand couched in symbolism we are unaccustomed to, but these instances are easily discounted by the insistence of the faithful that all this is the work of the ultimate architect.
theology is the work of a lifetime and simple minds will never study more of it than they must. our religions have been centuries in the making and to expect anyone but a devoted theologian to do much more than memorize a few passages of scripture is asking too much. the bible is a confusing mash of allegory and symbolism that such simple minds must have interpreted for them by those who claim to have studied and come to some limited understanding of those texts.Quote:
10 or 12 bible versus your pastor had you memorize
belief is not understanding, it is acceptance.
I'm not asking for chris to be a theologian. I'm asking and expecting that he at least read the text that his religion he so ardently defends and advances is based on.Quote:
Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity
You're right that belief is not understanding. It is surrender.
dude I don't even go to church. Don't "assume" that some pastor or preach is putting these thoughts in my head. lol. I havent been to chuch in over ten years bud. These are my PERSONAL beliefs, and studys that I have conducted. Science is here to prove atheists wrong! AND IT IS!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBlazer
"we are the arm of God, and science is the blade. If we are wise and swift, we shall quell this heracy without incident!" chris62008
Quote:
Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity
1)Code is defined as communication between an encoder (a â??writerâ? or â??speakerâ?) and a decoder (a â??readerâ? or â??listenerâ?) using agreed upon symbols.
2)DNA's definition as a literal code (and not a figurative one) is nearly universal in the entire body of biological literature since the 1960's.
Well how about that. Let's see here, 1) You don't go to church. 2) You do you own research and base your beliefs on that. 3) Your personal beliefs are contained in a book that you have never bothered to research fully.Quote:
Originally Posted by chris62008
Your "science" is a sham and a mockery of science. Your beliefs are not fully researched by your own admission. Yet you throw stones at those who don't believe as you do? Interesting . . . and rather trollish. :D