AK-47 in E&F - rockwool/clay medium (First Grow Log)

@icbh707 - I've been using airstones the whole time but the ones I'm using kinda suck I think to be honest but I did buy a pump for a 50 gallon aquarium and connected two airstones to it and run it 24/7.

I see you saying your using alot of CalMag...do you use RO water or just tap, and if your using tap, what is your ppm on your tap? Mine is 300ppm at 0.5 or 500, however you wanna say it. I want to use RO water, and I will be in the fall, I just don't have the money to afford one right now and I don't plan on growing throughout the whole summer, this will be my last attempt before the fall. I think its a good decision because I'm already having heat problems and its only going to get worse.

The sediment issue, I wish I would have had the forsight to have taken a picture at the time, but it was looking really dirty in the reservoir after only two weeks which really has me worried. I haven't used any hydrogen peroxide yet after draining the reservoir and cleaning it yesterday which I think could have been a contributing factor but at the same time I kinda wanna use it to kill any bacteria that may grow in there.

80 degree's F. My humidity is ~40% 24/7.

When you asked about the picture with the toothpic, I guess I don't know what "PM" is. The white stuff? If that is what your talking about I've always just assumed it was a calcium type buildup from the nutes but now I'm not so sure. I'm afraid it may even be a mold because I saw some hairy-looking white spot on a peice of hydroton yesterday. If you know anything about that please fill me in. Those hydroton peices on top are not directly touched by water so I was kind of curious why that buildup was occuring on them. Also in the past I get a kind of algae/fishy almost smell from my reservoir at the end of two weeks when I clean it....which is why I kind of feel the need to use the H202.

Lastly, I'll see about getting you a picture of the top of the tent but...bottom intake fan near the base of the tent, exhaust fan at the top of the tent, 8 ballast T5 lighting, and a large box fan mounted to the top of the tent in a corner and pointed slighty down that runs 24/7. I also have the exhaust and intake fans running 24/7. Non of my fans are directly pointed at any of the plants.

Hi Bert,

I would be shocked if you are getting a deficency with ionic this early on. are you handwatering or flooding it still? The fishy smell suggests to that the rockwool isn't drying out enough between waterings. That is the exact reason that I stopped with a rockwool/hydroton combo, the friggin smell. I stick by my thoughts about calmag, especially with tap over 300ppm, it is already hard. If you are still flooding it, I would hand water for awhile honestly and let the rw dry out a bit. You seem to be changing the resevoir alot for such small plants,possibly knocking everything off balance,each time if you hand water you will have more control of your feeding for a couple of weeks and you wont be wasting all that nute solution. I am guessing that it is an enviornmental problem rather than nute deficincey as ionic has everything that a mj plant requires and imo plants that size wouldn't absorb one specific nute from so much solution in such little time. If you saw explosive growth then this happened (and the ppms were dropping and the ph was rising), MAYBE, but as it looks now they havent produced enough up top to warrant even 1 resevoir change. Careful if you up the ppms much with plants that size otherwise you will burn them. Get us a close up of the pale leaves. I think that changing variables every day isnt doing much good either. Get a nice clean oxygenated 1/2-3/4 strength solution of ionic grow, ph 5.8-6 hand water for a week or 2 when the rw dries out a bit and you can be pretty sure that the nutrients are not the problem. I think you are giving them too much love. If you are still flooding them, you aren't following my advice anyway which completely defeats the purpose of trying to help you in the first place. At this point you need to get some roots down.
I have just got back from a weekend away working and will re read you thread about your enviornment tommorrow as I can hardly keep my eyes open.
P.S careful with the air con, if the condenser unit isn't outside the room it will suck all of your humidity out of the air, possibly more probs.


TTFN
Subzero.

@subzero - I'm going to follow your advice sub, I totally forgot about it to be honest. Is there any watering rotation you suggest?

To give some more info (I'll post pics later today) now the first and second sets of leaves are turning a grayish/whitish and shriviling up and dying which is now moving to the third set of leaves on almost every plant. The leaves start to slouch and then the tips get soft and start to turn grayish/whitish and it moves up the leaf until its totally shriviled up. I've had this issue before with prior plants as well. This isn't new. This death is not related to the white coloring I was getting on some of the leaves and I believe that to be a nute lockout of some kind, I mean the leaves were viritually white, and I've not had that happen before, but I thought it may be a combo of to little nutes, temperature, and maybe I'm not keeping it at the right PH (started at 5.6 steady and now between 5.8-6.0 from sub's recommendation).

Now, I've spent alot of time trying to figure out why I'm continually having problems and I think I may have somewhat answered at least a portion of it. The biggest difference I can think of between my grow, all your guys grows, and the place where I recieved my information is my blasted 40 gallon reservoir. First off, its not easy to manage 40 gallons of water EVERY week so I let it sit for two weeks and my grow store recommended that, possibily even longer. However, as has been said before alot of buildup occurs, the water gets stinky, and the ppm's just continue to shoot up. Also, a side affect to this large of a reservoir is that I cannot tell how much water these plants are taking in. Its so damn big I can't notice if the water level has changed unless I'm missing at least 3 gallons. 3 gallons in a 20 gallon reservoir however is very easily noticed and corrected, including that a 20 gallon is much easier to manage. To expound even further, my first grow was some swag beans that just took off initially but as they got larger, they started showing signs of nute burn which only got worse very rapidly. At the time I had no idea about ppm's and everyone told me I didn't need to add water because I'm using a 40 gallon reservoir. So, I would fill this 40 gallon with about 35 gallons (with 4tsp/gal. grow) every two weeks, add 1/2 strength nutes at the end of the first week, and then change the water on the second week without adding any more water at all. So here is the root of the problem at least with those particular first beans I tried growing. Now, with these plants in there that you've all seen, I know that isn't the problem, I've been adding a gallon at least of water every day and I damn near changed it all out after the end of the first week. I'm wondering if maybe I didn't clean my hydroton good enouph (which I really don't think I did, I soaked it in 1/2 strength h202 overnight and then rinsed it off from the faucet). Or maybe the water is getting kind of putrid but honestly I changed the water so damn much these last two weeks and they are still small that I can't think this is the issue. Lastly, where I got these beans, I just found out over the weekend that they could possibly be over 8 years old. Which may explain why they are being so tempermental as well.

I hope this extra information will enable you guys to come up with some more idea's because I'm out of them. As I said, with this particular grow right now I think that although the 40gal. reservoir has been the issue in the past, I don't think that it currently is the overall issue here, I'm thinking it may be the hydroton or the fact that the beans are so old or a combination of both. Also, I think I may be under-nuting them because for the last two weeks they have been at roughly 1/4tsp./gal. and the Ionic Grow bottle recommends 4tsp./gal. I'm starting to think these aren't going to make it either. As I said though, I'm going to try to swap the reservoirs this weekend (the only reason I'm not doing it right now is because I just drained the 40gal. cleaned it, and put fresh water/nutes/etc. in there so it should be good for a week).

Here are the photo's you requested.
[attachment=o216343] [attachment=o216344] [attachment=o216345] [attachment=o216346] [attachment=o216347]

More photo's...
[attachment=o216348] [attachment=o216349] [attachment=o216350] [attachment=o216351] [attachment=o216352]

Sorry that some of them are out of focus, my camera kinda sucks like that where the image looks clear in the display and turns out all unfocused.

bert, why do you ask for help then ignore it? wtf? Anyway, I am patient and will give it one last shot. FOCUS! You are definately over watering those plants flooding them several times a day. The root system is small, I know this because not much is happening up top, simple.
3ml per liter is 1/2 strength ionic dose which is 12ml per gallon @ 4L=1 gallon (check this as imperial and us gallons are different). 3ml is about 1 tsp, I just went and measured it. so.... from the above formula providing that 4l= 1 gallon I would give them 4 tsp per gallon 1/2 dose. I looked at a bottle of Ionic grow this very afternoon with you in mind. Our instructions say 7 ml per liter which is 2 and a bit teaspoons per liter, which works out at 9ish tsp per gallon full strength. Do you think something got lost in translation? Can you get a liter measure and a ml syringe to do your mixing? Maybe they printed the labels wrong, it has happened before although not with gt that i am aware. You want 4tsp gallon ½ strength, 9 tsp gallon full strength. Is this how you interpret the instructions on the bottle? If not I would email growth technology and find out what gives BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE. Something aint right here, it looks like they either changed the strength for the n/American market or they fucked up their math. If it is the latter, this would likely be why you are having problems and why nobody else uses it over there!

Want to try an experiment?
I would try hand watering your worst plant around the rockwool when the rockwool dries out a bit, once a day? with 4 tsp per gallon I /G = (1/2 strength according to uk instructions), ph 5.7- 6ish and see if it bursts into life after a week. I am betting it will.

I have a few more thoughts but would like to get to the bottom of this first. Let me know how you get on.

Subzero. :thumbsup:

here you are bert this is on their site

Hydroponics
Mineral Nutrition Liquid Silicon Liquid Oxygen Growth Enhancement

Mineral nutrition is essential for plants in hydroponic system. It is easy to grow great crops with well-managed mineral nutrients.

Seedlings and Clones

EC: 1.5 mS
pH: 5.8â??6.2
Change tank every 10â??14 days


Make up IONIC Grow in the nutrient tank.
Use Hard Water formulations if necessary.

Add Liquid Oxygen to the tank â?? it can be added daily at 5 ml per 20 litres or every 2 days at 5 ml per 10 litres.
Young plants can be foliar fed with Nitrozyme. Mix in clean water at 5 ml per litre. Mist the whole plant in low light.
Repeat weekly until last 4 weeks.
GreenFuse Root can be given to seedlings, clones and young plants. Mix in water at 1 ml per litre warm water into Rockwool or other media. Can also be misted over foliage.

Young Plants

EC: 1.8 mS
pH: 5.8â??6.2


Maintain nutrient at around 1.8 mS with pH around 6.
Add Liquid Silicon at 1ml per litre. Check and correct pH back to 6. Repeat weekly.
Liquid Oxygen daily if possible.
GreenFuse Grow can be added to the tank with every tank change. Follow instructions carefully.
Maintain throughout the life of the crop.

Early Flowering

EC: 2.0 mS
pH: 5.8â??6.2
Change tank every 7â??10 days


Make up IONIC Grow in the nutrient tank. It is a good idea to use the Grow formulation for the first week of flowering period. Then switch to Bloom.
Use Hard Water formulations if necessary.
Add Liquid Silicon at 1ml per litre. Check and correct pH back to 6. Repeat weekly.
Liquid Oxygen daily if possible.
GreenFuse Bloom can be added to the tank with every tank change. Add at 1â??2 ml per litre and mix thoroughly.
Maintain throughout the life of the crop.

Flowering

EC: 2.0 mS
pH: 5.8â??6.2
Change tank every 7 days


Make up IONIC BLOOM in the nutrient tank.
Add IONIC BOOST at 1 ml per litre of tank volume. Repeat twice weekly
Keep EC around 2.0 mS and pH at 6 or slightly under.
Add Liquid Silicon at 1ml per litre. Check and correct pH back to 6. Repeat weekly.
Liquid Oxygen daily if possible.
GreenFuse Bloom can be added to the tank with every tank change. Add at 1â??2 ml per litre and mix thoroughly.



Tank Changes â?? the sequence
1. Empty old tank â?? rinse thoroughly and fill with fresh water.
2. Use pump if possible to stir and agitate the water.
3. Add the appropriate IONIC nutrient solution â?? usually at around 7 ml per litre. Mix thoroughly.
4. Check EC â?? add more nutrient if necessary â?? mixing well until EC is at desired level (usually 1.5â??2 mS).
5. If using BOOST â?? add now at 1â??2 ml per litre in the tank. Mix well.
6. If using Liquid Silicon â?? add now at 1ml per litre of tank volume.
7. Check and correct the pH (ideal range 5.8â??6.2). Use pH DOWN to lower pH. If pH needs raising then Liquid Silicon is the best option.
8. Add Liquid Oxygen at the recommended rate and make a final check of pH before allowing nutrient to circulate to plants.
9. If GreenFuse (or any other organic additive) is being used, it should be added now. It may be a good idea to reduce the application of Liquid Oxygen to 50% of the recommended rate if using GreenFuse.

The IONIC Schedule is also available for download in pdf format - click here.

Subzero :stoned:

@subzero - Very sorry, I wasn't trying to ignore you I honestly forgot you said to cut the watering down (have alot of stuff going on in my life right now so its been pretty crazy the last couple weeks). On another note, here is snap shot of my bottle stating "5ml per liter or 4 tsp per gallon" This is where I got the 4 tsp per gallon. It also says a target EC of 1.8 for most applications...per the chart at the bottom of the page HERE that would mean my target PPM for the nutrient solution would be 900ppm. As of right now, I've been keeping my overall ppm between 400-600 which means I'm only adding between 100-300ppm of the nutrient solution? So if I want to go 1/2 strength nute solution like your saying, I would go 450ppm nutes and with 300ppm water would put me at 750ppm?

[attachment=o216366] [attachment=o216367]

Wow, I just deleted everything I typed with one f'ing button....sigh. Anyways, what I was trying to say in a summary...my light times right now is 5pm-11am. My watering schedule is 4 times a day for 10 minutes at time (gives it just enouph time for the water to touch the bottom of the rockwool cubes for about 4 minutes). In my past 3 attempts I was watering 4 times a day for 30 minutes at a time and the water was totally submerging the rockwool cubes. Now I'm following subzero advice, and I cut the pump off before the lights kicked on yesterday (4/20/09) and watered them once at about 2am by hand pouring ~12oz. of water on the hydroton around the rockwool cubes per plant. When I checked in on the plants this morning at 8am (4/21/09) they seemed more droopy than where they were at yesterday. I will give an update when the lights kick on at 5pm later today.

Hi,
No worries, the rockwool must be moist, not soaking wet, 600-650 ppm (at x500 scale) is where I would run it. If they are drooping, water your worst one and wait 1/2 an hour then look again, if it has perked up they need more water. if not it is probably a heat issue. I understand that you are running the lights on at night and cant keep checking them but you wont get roots down properly if you overwater. 8 year old seeds aint great but usually it would be a germination problem and obviously that isnt the case otherwise we wouldn't be here now. Buttttt. If you want to do this seriously get some good seeds off the internet, not from a mate. Indicas are better for beginners than sativas. diseases can spread through seed stock as well so who knows what you are growing really.

The tent, please find time to read my thread on pvc tents on page 1 of sick plants. Don't be stubborn and discount this as a problem as i have been growing for years without a major problem until this issue bit me on the ass, and it bit me big time. I lost all confidence in growing and almost gave up. now I'm back a little more wise and things are looking bigger and better than ever.

I believed you about what the bottle said but i would still email gt and find out why the labels vary between the uk and canada.

Talk soon,
Subzero.

@subzero - I took a look at your post and plan on looking at that link you posted as well about this. I feel like I've damn near exhausted most of the possibilites of what could be causing all of these issues. Its beyond frustrating. I know I'm a new grower so I know it could be as simple as me just not knowing what the hell I'm doing but more and more I'm starting to feel like this may possibly be the issue. The biggest problem is that I lost the receipt for the intial purchase I made of all the equipment and threw the shoddy instructions that came with the tent because they WERE shoddy so I have no clue what make my tent is. Also, it has no label on it so again I don't know what type of tent it is. I would like to mention that the tent gave off a hardcore plastic type smell for a very long time until just recently its not noticable anymore. Infact the room had a real plasticy type smell for many months before it finally kind of dissapated. Also, everytime so far it always seems like its either a difficiency or nute burn. When I get home today I will water the most punked looking plant and see what happens to confirm if they are being underwatered at the moment. But again, this really may be a tent issue. SO, if that is the case, what do you recommend I do? Just take the actual tent portion off, leave the bars up, and just have the plants under the light like that for right now? I actually have two tents, both the same so I would have to take both of the covers off and get them out of the room for right now. I'm willing to do that, the only drawback for me right is the lack of money, otherwise I go rush off and buy another tent that I know doesn't have this issue, and I can't return these ones cause I don't have a receipt. So lets say I do at least take the tent covers off, leaving the plants just pretty much open in the room, its carpeted, and the walls have wallpaper that isn't white so I don't have alot of anything to do any reflecting, do you have any suggestions of what I could do? I think if I did this this week the plants are far gone enouph that it wouldn't be a waste of time. I just really really really want to have a successful grow before I close up shop till the fall. I want tear my hair out, seriously.

first off, happy 420!!!
i thought your tent frame was made of metal not pvc? ive never used the tents i just staple the black and white plastic to the walls and floor if needed. im not sure about the advantages of the tents but i can tell you that plants grow just fine out of tents.
i think you need more airflow too. i always make sure there is a fan blowing just over the tops of the plants but never right on them. it helps move some of that hot air under the lights and also helps push oxygen molecules that have stuck to the plants microscopic hairs out of the way to make room for co2. you should also have some fresh air in that room as well.
the PM is powdery mildew. i think thats what you have on the hydroton. letting them dry out a bit should help. if you start to see it on your leaves later on you can use a sulfur burner to treat it.
overwatering is the most common mistake new growers make. and once in a while some pros still do it too... a lot of the people that i have helped think if they give them less water but still feed them the same amount of times a day that they are not overwatering. not true, they need to dry out between waterings. you need to feel the weight of the bag every time you check on them...every time, every bag. and after a while you will be able to feel when the bag starts to get light and when its really heavy with water. this is hard to teach to people that start with coco because they never listen to you or remember what you said about the weight and they look at the color of the coco on top of the pot and think that when it gets light in color that it is dry and if is dark its wet. thats not always the case. also when they are small its like the roots sit in suspended animation until the medium has dried out, then they finally pop. a few weeks back a trainee of mine had grape ape clones and half dried out after the first watering and half did not. after that the ones that dried out took off, the ones that didnt stayed the same size. when i came back to check about 10 days later he could not figure it out because he had watered the ones that never took off so much less than the others so he thought he was not overwatering. but he was still watering every day so they never got a chance to have that first dry out and so they never popped. i think it was 24-48 hours of no watering and they were off to the races. although this extended his veg time by about 2 weeks. :(
i always start with hand water DTW until they are about ready to flip. i also start with feeding 1oz at a time until they really start drying out fast. im now 72 hours into blue cheese clones and they are eating about 1oz every 12 hours. yesterday they started to pop so from today on some will eat more than others and i need to feel the weight of every pot to know which ones to water or not.
im not touching the ionic ppm stuff. like i said, im GH and at late veg am at about 800ppm. my blue cheese clones started at 450ppm and they are loving it. in about another 3 days i'll bump them up to about 600ppm, then to 800, after flip up to about 1000, and by the end im around 1200-1300+, GH says to push 1400 but they just want to sell more stuff.
im not sure whats up with the res but i use 18gal storage containers all the time for a cheap $5 res. for flushing or babies or whatever they work great as a small hand water res.
take pics of your equipment...please! lights, air pump and stones, testers, tent. i got no idea what your working with.
i did some less than perfect hydroton rinsing and it never caused any issues for me. its just clay dust as far as i know does nothing bad.

you guys ever try the cheese? i heard about it for a while and then a friend grew some, wow, i very happy high!!! not too strong just a very warm happy feeling...and sex is amazing after a few bong hits.
right now i have bubba kush, sour diesel, grape ape, lambs breath, and cheese and i wish they were all cheese...cant wait for the blue cheese...:bonghit:

I know how you feel, I was actually having panic attacks over my tent, really, serious panic attacks. Time was ticking away and I could not resolve my problems nohow.
Here is what I did to finally prove the point of my tent offgassing. Take one out, and get it under a light outside the tent, preferably in another room dont worry too much about fans or reflective surfaces for a minute and obviously handwater. If it starts to recover after a few days it is the tent. I took them out, they recovered, put them back in, they suffered after a few days. back out ok, back in suffered, I was that stubborn it took a month of doing this after trying everything else (throughout about 3months prior,different nutes, tanks, tank changes, different clones,high humidity, low humidity, different lamps, different water, everything!),Then I googled grow tent problems as an absolute last resort and found the link i posted. next day i took them out of the faulty tent and put them in my old one, it has been 2.5 weeks now and the plants that i thought i couldnt save (they were really, really bad, way worse than yours), have easily quadrupled in size and are really, really taking off now, started 12/12 yesterday. The reason I question the tent is that you havent had a successful grow in it yet have you? Growing good weed isn't that hard really, its not. most problems for new growers is overwatering or overfeeding, and with ionic i never, ever had a problem with nutes and we are experimenting with the watering, so i'm pretty sure it is an envornmental problem. If you got it on ebay or searched for the cheapest tent you could get it is almost certainly made of pvc. Hopefully, problem solved. The smell you mention says poison gasses to me. You dont seem to be getting any roots down which is almost more important than whats going on up top (no roots no shoots!) my problem exactly. plants dying from the bottom up? yep

If the plant outside the tent recovers (and it wont take long), take the covers off and get them out of your house, especially if you have pets or children, then get some white/black plastic from the hydroshop and cover the frame in it to make a temporary cover. dont buy pvc plastic obviously, make sure it is from a growshop! (until you can afford a homebox or 2) you should be able to get some stick on zippers off the net too. Don't forget to remove the drip tray as this will be made of the same nasty stuff!

Those leaves on the bottom look suspiciously familiar.

Keep me in the loop,
Subzero :jointsmile:

Ok so now I'm confused about the PVC, is it the reflective plastic that is made out of PVC that is the problem, or is the frame that is made out of PVC that is the problem? My understanding now is that its the white reflective part of the tent that is made out of the harmeful PVC stuff so I've already pulled the tent cover off of one tent and was in the process of pulling it off the other tent here soon...I did see though that the inside of the tent is made with 100% Polyamide in China. I know I'm screwing up alot of things here left and right it seems but even if this isn't the problem I've ruled it out as a potential problem. Got to wait for some help to get the rest of he cover off the grow tent because I can't lift the reservoir with 30gallons of water in it and move that tent cover at the same time.

On the watering thing...this morning the rockwool was still wet, not sopping wet but wet, and this evening its still wet, the plants are drooping more however so I just watered one of them to see what will happen. It seems the rockwool is retaining the water forever, its not drying out like it did when I was hand spraying them in my seedling tray where the rockwool got visably dry. So far in the hydroton they look really wet and when touched on top are varying degrees of wet, I'd say more than damp honestly. Should I let them dry out for a couple day till the rockwool is visably dry?

hi icbh,

It is the actual cover that i suspect is pvc not the poles.

Cheese was a clone only skunk number one, rare pheno from i believe(sensi sb), that was given out as clones, at the manor by the exodus group that organised huge "free parties" all around the m25 that runs around london, back in the good old days, apparently zorro from red eye magazine had to retire the original mother and teamed up or gave a cutting to big buddah who started selling the seeds I guess he selfed it.

I havent grown cheese but smoked it back in the late 90s, very, very stinky. Apparently buddas arent anywhere as good as the original. but I think that it is a bit like g13 in the states, everyone is trying to cash in.

:thumbsup:
Subzero

bert,
polamide, I'm not certain if it is pvc or not........ but china, well they have very few standards to adhere to for their exports and hydrohuts were ok until china added a little something to make manufacture cheaper their end, unknown to hydrohut. If the tent is white on the inside and it is made in china, who knows what is really in it? Remember the baby milk that killed all those children? Made in China. as was my tent. also i have heard of tents that are ok but the drip tray is pvc, also a possibility.

Let the r/w dry out, if there is moisture there, the plants will take it up before they wilt from dehydration.

Subzero.

its funny, a lot the club owners and long time growers out here cant seem to find cheese clones or finished bud. but i think thats because its not really in demand out here right now by the general masses and whenever some does come around its snatched very quick by the people that know about it...anything purple is what the masses want and all the people i know that grow it, including myself, dont care for it. this grape ape i have would make most people shit their pants its so dark purple and sweet smelling but for me and most people i know we would rather smoke almost anything else. unless your a Jamaican living in cali you most likely never heard of the lambs breath but its a great high! its time for the rappers to start rapping about something other than "the grapes"
im so over purple!!!
i had to drive 6 hrs round trip to get my clones. i think they are from sensi seed, first cuttings off fresh mothers.

Nobody I know grows anything purple, Check out big buddas seeds for the cheese, and blue cheese, start a trend! Fast sativas are in over here, cindy99
crosses and the like. Cindy 99 is easy to rhyme, mabey you could rap about it too

Have fun with the cheese.
Subzero.

So, I went and bought some white/black stuff like you said and 9 hours (yes 9) later I've finished re-doing the tent. I will say one thing though that the closet where I was doing my seedlings in had water damage on the plywood shelf up top that I had my smaller light attached to for seedlings so I replaced that and got that all set up again, and tore down the other tent entirely (it was ment to be a clone mother tent but thats going to be farther down the road for me I'm afraid and when I get my hands on some good seeds I'll re-builed it again). I also had built the tent wrong because as I said earlier the directions had no words just some illegable pictures on them so I went about fixing the tent so my lights are now in line with my E&F instead of perpendicular and I put those low hanging poles up top and made a ghetto sling for my exhaust fan with some duct tape. Speaking of, duct tape, its not going to create some kind of offgas situation or something is it? Also one big thing I also noticed...after getting those tents out of the house, the lack of smell in that room is almost overwhelming (plastic/sourish smell). I was actually astonished because I guess I've become used to the smell, so I really thing all this hard work really paid off even if it might not be the tents causing my issues. Well, I'm freaking beat so I'm going to hit the sack (started working in there at 5pm when lights kicked on and now its 2:30am my time). Lastly, after hand watering the plants they immediatly started moving with leaves turning and such and then later this evening they had perked up noticably so I'm starting to think its underwatering and I'll tell you why I think it is, including the results after handwater of course...Previously, on X-Men, I was watering them 4 times a day for 30 minute at a time and it NEVER showed signs of over-watering...it always looked like nute burn that started on the bottom leaves and worked its way up. Now, since these plants have been in my E&F for what 3 weeks now I've been watering them 4 times a day for 10 minutes at a time but really they are maybe getting <5 minutes of water because it take about 5 minutes to fully flood my flood table. This is my hypothesis after seeing the plants reaction to being watered today. Lastly, doods at the grow store said I should be using more Ionic than I am right now as well and I think you may have already mentioned that yourself but I have kicked it up to 1/4 strength with the hand watering and the grow store guys were telling me thats still too little. Well guys, tell me what you think about all this wall of text, and here are the pics...

[attachment=o216506] [attachment=o216507]

Bert, those lights are flourescent tubes mate!, drop them down to about a foot above the plants and fill up the ballast with everything you got, you should be able to get them even closer than that without burning them, they hardly put out any heat at all or lumens really. Also are you blowing air through your carbon filter? You should have the can inside the tent attached to the fan SUCKING it through.

Overwatering effects lower leaves if you dont have much of a root system but if they perked up after watering flood them, but maybe only twice a day.


Got to go mate, I think you are getting on track now.
Subzero.

@subzero - Actually, I don't have a carbon filter at all right now. That top can is exhaust and that box duct taped on the left side of the tent in the second picture with the plants is actually a cardboard & duct tape rig I made so the intake fan wasn't blowing directly on the plants, so it blows down instead. Also, checked the plants this morning around 8:00AM and the looked noticabely better. I think I may actually be on track like you said but I don't want to get my hopes too high haha. I really think that the tents were the biggest issue like you said and I wished I had done this earlier but thought it was one of those last ditch effort things that I didn't want to mess with but now I don't regret it at all even if these ones don't work out because there is no more smell in the room. In fact, with the door open it used to stink the whole house up with that smell and it is no longer there. I really appreciate all the help you've provided me with because I would have never assumed the tent would have even been a possible issue. I mean I bought the damn tents from a grow store, you'd think they wouldn't sell you something like that. I will post pictures of the plants this weekend so they should have a couple more days to recooperate and hopefully start looking better. Lastly, I'll turn the other 4 tubes on and drop the ballast down this evening when I get back home. Cheers!

Bert

I know, I couldn't get my head around the tents either, I just couldn't accept it. Problem was my new set up just fit in the excecution tent and to change back to my old one meant to change back to my smaller system without giving my new stuff a try. I tried everything else, it had to be the new carpet in the room or the tent.

You will need a carbon filter quite soon as ak 47 stinks like skunk, as soon as they take off it will reek all through your house. If i understand what you were saying about your fan at the bottom, let it blow on the plants, it will strengthen the stems and help them breathe better (lights on only). I dont blow any air in, I open the vents at the bottom and let the exaust fan suck through, never had any ventelation problems. If you are serious, get a 6oo watt duel spectrum sodium lamp in there when you flower or ideally a few weeks before, even a cheap ebay ballast/ reflector/ lamp kit made for specificly for your purpose will do for now. I know for a fact that you will not yeild well if thats all the light you have. I know more expense, but it will pay for itself in 2 months time.

Other than that, just keep everything clean, and don't change too many variables at once.

Look forward to an update in a few days.

Subzero :thumbsup:

@subzero - I've got an Ozone generator that seems to have worked well when I was keeping the door shut during the winter but I'm not sure how affective it will be having to keep the door open due to the heat. About the lights....they were recommended to me because they supposedly aren't just regular flourescents. They are T5 Metal Halides that supposedly put out mega lumins are run very cool in comparison to other lighting options. I also have 4x T5 red spectrum lights that I'm suppose to use for the bloom cycle. I'll take some pictures again this weekend (plan on doing at the end of every week to show progress), but right now they are looking much better than they did yesterday. Again, thanks for all the help I don't think I'd have ever figured this one out otherwise. Plus I'm lucky to talk to someone who is knowledgable about Ionic as well which has helped me understand more of just what I'm working with. I really think I'm undernuting the plants and I'm going to do a full drain and put in 2.5 tsp/gal. this weekend.

yep, t5 thats what i thought you were using. i had one for a while but never really used it. a friend has one he uses for early veg and likes it for that. but i would not use it to flower. like sub said a 600 hid or like he was saying about 2 400 8" apart. im not sure if you trays big enough. i bet you could get 300-400g off a 600w. also my buddy keeps his t5 i think about 8-12in above the tops.
do you know the cfm of that fan?
i would make both of those fans exhaust and use a vent opening for intake like what sub was saying. i like to get one of those 3m heppa filters for $3 at home depot and rig that to filter the incoming air. i do that for my hoods as well and it keeps the glass nice and clean.
are you going to top? supercrop? scrog?


im happy things are looking so well, keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

@icbh707 - So you don't think the red spectrum T5's are any good? I'm not sure about the cfm of the fans off the top of my head but I can get that info later when I get home. The intake fan is specifically ment for that purpose and I don't think it was ment to be inter-changable. Lastly, being my newbie self I don't know what top or supercrop means, and I think scrog means screen of green right? I really never considered doing that, I was just going to grow them ?normal? I suppose and if they got too tall just tie them down but I don't plan on growing till the fall if I can get a harvest from these so I don't have any plans of maintaining a clone mother or anything like that.

well i know those t5 lights arent cheap and i dont know what those red spectrum tubes will do as far as yield goes but i do know what you could get from a 400 600 or 1000 hid. but really i never heard back from you about being able to vent out of that room so those hid lights may not work because of heat. although im vegging my blue cheese babies under a 400mh on my bathroom counter top with only the bathroom exhaust fan going and its staying around 78-80f. i bet if i were to flower under that 400 i could get around 300g. but hey the t5 might do the same with less heat for all i know but it will never do as well as a 600 or 1000 hps. put it this way, i cut down my kush yesterday and am very unhappy with the size but i think i will end up with about 550g/1000hps. i couldnt get clones from my normal guy and had to get some from a guy i dont know and this is what happens. when i ran 600s for years i would get about 450g/600hps. i never finished with 400hps but i hear theyre very energy efficient .
im going to top today, i'll take a few pics for you in case you want to try it. im also going to build that vented door soon and ill get you a few pics of that as well.
scrog is a nice low stress way of spreading out the plants and keeping them low but again you cant move them around which i do a lot of.
i top, and supercrop if i have to, or to help trigger the purp to trun purp...i'll be doing that in about 10days on some grape ape.
you will need a carbon filter for sure. about 5 weeks into flower you wont be able to leave clothes near the room because it will stink them up so bad and by the time youre ready to cut youll be able to smell it from my house.;)

Can someone please explain to me exactly what a t5 is? I have never heard of them over here? Surely your not meant to flower under just that??? are you. Icbh how many watts are they? Must get a decent lamp as soon as you are sure they are recovering. you must.

Bert, ozone is great but too much is bad for you and your plants. I use it when I'm drying alot it works great but for the money I would get a carbon filter on there and treat the ozone with a bit of caution.

Glad things are getting better.
Subzero. :thumbsup:

the t5 is just a high output fluorescent. i think mine was about the same size as berts and i think i was told it was like using a 250w hid but with about half the watts used. the good; evenly covers a larger area with less heat and uses less power. the bad; its not an hid...yield/m2 will not come even close.
heres a site that sells bulbs and has the lumens for each. t5 blows away normal tubes but comes no where near the hid bulbs.
seeing my buddy veg under the t5 is the reason i never really used mine. after a couple weeks of veg his ladies were always skinny and small and needed some time under his 600mh before he put them under his 1000hps. where as the ones i vegged under a 600mh were topped and ready to flip after about 2 weeks. i have no info on the red spectrum tubes or yields in general under the t5.
put it this way, my yield/watt ratio was better when i used 600s but my yield/m2 is better with 1000s. and theres the rub... the more power you use the more you waste. but i only have so much grow area and want to get the most out of it even if i have to use more power and control heat. i like your idea of the 2 400w. sounds like your getting about 1000w of yield with 800w of power. i still need to study up on the nft. my hydro store guys calls it old school method.

oops...site for bulbs...
T5 high output Fluorescent, Metal halide, high pressure sodium and fluorescent growlight replacement or conversion Bulbs from 4 hydroponics.com by Growco Indoor Garden Supply

icbh, have a look here, for gt1oo it's what i'm using. Surely e/f is more oldschool than nft?? I dunno but I like it!

Hydroponics lights kits systems, grow tents, organic & alternative gardening products

bert, i think you need to find another grow shop if they sell poison tents and reccomend those lights for flowering. Looking at the price of them, you should have just got a few normal blue spectrum flourescents for veg and spent the rest on a hps, i do actually like the dual spectrum hps they are great for a beginner and it would save you from buying a big m/h for only a few weeks of veg when the t5's aren't sufficent.

Anyway,

HAVE A NICE DAY!
Subzero. :)

shit man thats cheap! and i pay just above wholesale at my hydroshop because of all the people i send their way. im going to pick one up and figure out a spot to try it out. i already have a 600 but i think ill get another 400 and try your whole set up...although im going to stick with GH for now.
hey, theres no school like the old school and that guy is so young that anything would be old school to him.
i think ill do a scrog method when i try your setup. ill need to support them and wont be able to move them around anyway.

Well now, I read all you guys posts about the lights and such, and I agree with you in sheer numbers and amount of lumens produced but there is one thing that I think should be clarified. I actually read the label on one of my red spectrum bulbs and it says its a T5 HO (High Output) which puts it at a level above the regular T5's as well. Now, I'm kinda of retarded and couldn't figure out exactly how much lumens it actually produces but the best I can come up with was on a .pdf file for the brand of T5-HO's I have and it says "Initial Lumens" of 5000 and the light was 54Watt. So I'm wondering like if I have 380Watt Ballast does that still mean I get 5000 lumens or do you divide 380W by 54W and then mulitply times 5000 lumens? Anyways something to ponder on, here are the latest pics of my plants. Running tap water + Ionic Grow total ppm of [email protected] and PH of 6.0. Also, I think I'm going to see what can be accomplished by what I've got right just now and maybe this will be a good learning experience for all of us here too :D

[attachment=o216812] [attachment=o216813] [attachment=o216814] [attachment=o216815] [attachment=o216816]


Keep in mind in my last post on the 23rd was only 3 days ago and look how much they have improved its insane. Damn those smelly tents! Wow, I would have never ever figured this out on my own and its kind of ironic because they are so smelly the problem was right under my nose the whole damn time! :wtf:

Yes, they look better now, you will get 5000 lumens out of each bulb, you would need 18 of those lamps to equal 1x 600watt sunmaster hps.

You can grow weed just about anywhere except a tent built specifically for that purpose, it is insane I know. Welcome to the world of chinese knock offs!
I googled polamer and I am pretty sure that it is the black nylon stuff on the outside, not the white reflective surface on the inside, so only by the recovery photos i would say its pvc.
On the upside, if you had a hid lamp in there the heat would have released more poison and your plants would be dead by now, so I guess you got lucky?????

Stick to the feeding schedule, and givem another couple of weeks of recovery and you should be good to go.

Subzero.

Hey guys, just wanted to drop an and mention some things that I've noticed. The serrated edges of my leaves are curling up...a sign of heat stress from my lights maybe? Also, some of the lower leaves are starting to turn whitish progressively...but they were leaves that were still present during the time of the offgass tent cover so I'm assuming they are probably going to die anyways and I should be more worried about negative signs in my new growth instead correct? So far I haven't noticed any issues with my new growth other than the serrated edges curling up, but their color is fine and they overall look quite healthy.

P.S. Yea I'm pretty screwed on my lights aren't I? I think I will at least go with something like you suggested for my bloom cycle when the fall rolls around but I definately couldn't deal with that kind of heat right now. I really have no way to discreetly get that amount of heat out of that particular room so I'm basically going to have to wait till the temp. outside drops again in the fall.

Heya bertox :)

first of all... just have to get this out of the way, thought about it a few days ago when i figured checked out this thread... but i love the name lol, you are clearly a EQ1 or 2 fan :)

as for your question about the balast watts vs. the bulb watts... go with the bulb watts - i am not 100% certain on what the rating is on the balast, but if i were going to hazard a guess, i'd say that is the balast's maximum power output (so basically you total up the wattage of all the bulbs in the balast, and if that total exceeds the rating on the balast - you have a problem).

the balast plays no role in the actual output of the bulb (assuming the balast provides the amount of power that the bulb requests.. if it can;t provide enough power, obviously that will impact the bulb output... but you are never going to get more than the bulb's specifications)

I'd like to comment about your discoloured parts... but i don;t really think i know enough to say what it could be... but i have read several people say things like "old growth = old problems"... of course like many of the rules, that is just a general guideline, and there are several deficencies that can appear first in old growth before moving onto the newer growth... i'd keep an eye on it and just make sure it doesn't seem to be getting worse... but hopefully somebody more well-versed in troubleshooting will chime in and give you some good advice

good luck! :rastasmoke:

I bert,
look here for your curling leaves
Marijuana Plants Problems - Yellow Leaves, brown spots, nutrient shortage etc.
Scroll down there is a good troubleshooter there.
Possible heat stress but photos as always would help

In my excecution chamber, the leaves that recovered eventually died after greening up, the damage was already done. New growth should be speeding up by now. Don't worry about the growth that was there in the tent but keep an eye on the new growth, I am certain that you won't have defficencies with ionic soft water at the strength of the solution you are using now. A tower fan blowing across your plants wouldn't hurt either.

Keep us in the loop

Subzero :smokin:

When the serated edge's of my leave's curl..It's time to recheck the PH.

Dive:stoned:

Well I took some pictures of the leaves that were turning white/yellow and they ended up getting deleted. The best way to describe what they look like on the lower leaves is Nitrogen deficiency. Now, to take this into consideration, all the leaves that are showing what looks like Nitrogen deficiency were still around with the original tent enclosure and I believe that is why they are looking bad/dying. I have still not seen any signs of this with the new growth and there are now some rather large fan leaves that are just looking better than I've ever seen so far in my tent. This has now been the best I've ever seen plants looking in my tent. I am almost totally positive that the major issue here was the tent with some additional underlying issues that have sense been resolved I believe (nutrient levels, flood depth, etc).

I think the other major problem I had was that I wasn't ever adding water and I changed the reservoir out every 2 weeks (this was before I purchased a PPM pen btw) so the PPM in the water was getting quite out of hand and I didn't know any better at the time. So to correct this problem what I am currently doing is this (began after a reservoir change this last weekend):
1) 20gallons of tap that set out overnight, 2 tsp./gal. of Ionic Grow (keep in mind I'm using a 40gallon reservoir...and my pump is still submerged when I flood with only 20gal. in the reservoir)
2) Every day I add 1 gallon of tap water with 1 tsp. of Ionic Grow

So far, my PPM's have stayed steadily at [email protected] and my PH has dropped lowest to 5.7 but adding the tap water nocks it back up into the 5.8-5.9 range. I think this is probably just going to be my standard rotation from now on. The only modification to this is maybe upping the PPM weekly between my 2 week reservoir changes.

I think the other major hurdle I'm going to have to cross is the lighting problem that you guys have very much defined for me, thanks everyone for describing that so that I could understand...and I fully understand now. I have a option that I wanted to run past you guys and see if you have any recommendations for placement on this....I have a 4 slot T5 ballast that I could throw 4 more T5 HO lights in which would be another 20,000 Lumens. Where do you think I should put it in the tent? My best solution, or what I think would be to mount it on either the left or right side of the tent and hang perpendicular to the floor. The only issue I find with this is that only one side of the plants would be getting the extra light, or the majority of it, and if that would cause any problems because the lighting displacement would not be even. What do you guys think?

P.S. @Divestoned - I bet Rusty would think the same of me (your sig). Its been like a dog and pony show over here.

Bert,

Get them in there (the additional lights) every bit will help. Can you get them beside or in front of the other lights sideways maybe? its kind of hard to see how much horizontal space you have left but flat above is the best option imo. Otherwise any which way you can, more light the better. I agree with your upping the nutes every tank change but if you see the leaf tips burn a bit, back off next change or add more water. ph is perfect, keep an eye on the new growth, you just didn't stand a chance with that tent.

Yes, Rusty would probabaly have said that to you (he reckons I dont know shit by the way). He is a knowledgeable person but he sounds off like a complete twat over and over again. A self acclaimed king with a chip on his shoulder in my opinion. Best to read most of what he says and ignore the unnessesary attitude and rudeness to others. If he ever spoke to me or anyone else in my presence as he does on these threads, I would take his head off in a heartbeat.

Hope you get some pic's up soon.

Subzero ;)

Hey guys, sorry I haven't checked in earlier but I have got some pretty, what I would consider amazing pics from how punked they were looking only a week ago. Due to the fact they are looking so much better I've just started them on a 12/12 bloom cycle that just started today at 8pm and will obviously end at 8am from now on. A week ago when I filled the reservoir I filled with half strength Ionic Grow (2 tsp/gal) which put me at [email protected] with 20 gallons in my 40 gallon reservoir. Every day since then I've added 1 gallon of tap water that sat out overnight with 1 tsp of Ionic Grow every day shortly after the lights kick on. Today, and for the rest of the week I will be adding 1 gallon of water with 3 tsp of Ionic Grow because I believe some of the new growth is starting to show some signs of under-nute as you will see with these pics in a couple of shots. I've maintained a PH of between 5.7-6.0 and between [email protected] all week by ONLY adding that 1 gallon of tap with 1 tsp of Ionic Grow so thats been working out very well. The plants are just now starting to give off some skunky aroma's but nothing really overpowering at all. Still debating what I want to do to solve the carbon filter problem. I think maybe tommorow I'm going to figure out how I want to rig that other Ballast in there but I do have one question...Do you think its ok if I just go with the T5 HO Metal Halides in that 4 light ballast or should I go all red spectrum ones? Right now in my 8 light ballast I'll be sitting at 4 MH and 4 of the red spectrum ones. I was thinking about going to the store this week and just getting 8 more of the red spectrum ones and putting it in both ballasts. That again would put me at an overall lumen count of 60,000 within an 800 cubic inch enclosure.

On another note about the Curling serrated parts of my leaves, I also have a picture of that as well. If that is a PH problem I've been sitting mostly between 5.9-6.0 all week....should I drop it to like 5.6-5.8 then???

Alrighty, Here are the pics, tell me what you think guys!!!

[attachment=o217254] [attachment=o217255] [attachment=o217256] [attachment=o217257] [attachment=o217258]