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Crime rates went down a lot in the 1990's, some 15-20 years after Roe vs. Wade was passed, and many people believe it was because there were less unwanted children being born who were likely to become criminals. This is one of many cases for keeping abortion legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
New York City is safer than it's been since the 1950's.
Please explain the difference between abortion and murder. I know it hasn't been born yet, but can anyone really argue that life only begins when they exit the womb? Babies kick in there, and yet I've heard people say that it's not at all immoral to kill it as long as it hasn't gone out the canal yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
I'm sorry, but crushing a cocoon is killing a butterfly.
A woman gets full sovereignty over her body, but not when somebody's living in it. I really don't see how her opinion is at all relevent to ensuring the healthy birth of the person inside her, that can then be given up for adoption if necessary.
A fetus has no awareness. Even a young infant lacks the brain development that is needed to be a fully conscious person.
I'm pro-choice. I don't really believe in god or an afterlife so I have no qualms with any religious implications implicent in abortion. Sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it's conveniant, sometimes its because people are fools. Do I support women just getting knocked up and getting abortions? Of course not, I'd probably cap it at a one time thing cuz if you dont learn a lesson after THAT shit, you ARE retarded. If I got a girl knocked up I'd ask if she wanted an abortion. I made a mistake, fair enough, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna ruin three lives by letting this kid into the world. Sorry, life isn't always a blessing. If anyone thinks so, go to Africa and say that to their faces. Besides, the pro-life movement is just another form of prohibition, and we all know how well that works. Very, very well. It almost always stops completely whatever it is being prohibited.
/end sarcasm. No, prohibition of any kind is pure shenanigans and only encourages dissent.
man, I'm so sick of the "oh life is SO beautiful and sacred and everything is so happy and joyous and to kill a clump of cells is murder!"Quote:
Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
we can argue about what constitutes a "living being" all day, but the simple matter is people are more pissed about a clump of cells than the 16,000 yes thats sixteen thousand kids that die every single day from hunger alone. These are kids we are talking about and these are only deaths from hunger, not disease and war.
its amazing at how well the corporate media can dissuade people from the REAL issues to something as silly, minute, and utterly ridiculous as the loss of a clump of cells
Quote:
Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
wait let me get this straight. Her opinion, is of no relevance, while you, some random person who is not her, does not have the same personality, desires, needs, economic/social status, or intelligence, should have any say in the matter?
dude, think about that for a bit. basically your saying that her opinion doesn't matter but your does, thats pretty ass-backwards my friend
indeed:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by FeedmeWeed
There is a very simple difference between you and I.Quote:
Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
You believe a human life to be something extremely valuable, I believe it to be unimportant , I feel this way simply because there are already too many damn people as it is.
Im not a woman so im not gonna start to try and even make any decision for one.
Comming from a fiscal conservative and a moral democrat (libertarian).
I can see I'm not going to convince anybody (and the one implication that I'm simply a tool of the corporate media was quite infuriating, as I consider that the worst insult possible), I will say this....I don't think it should be illegal, because as somebody said, that's just another form of prohibition, which never has and never will work. I'd just really rather they didn't and it makes sad to think of anything getting killed....somebody pointed out that it's a clump of cells; well, we're all just clumps of cells, really.
I will end on this note, though. Breukelen advocate said that a fetus is not a fully conscious being, and he also said that a newborn infant isn't, either. In that case, I suggest beginning the movement for a woman's right to stab her newborn child, as long as it is under 6 months old, where full consciousness begins (I don't know when exactly it begins--just making a point). I think the movement will get a large following: newborn babies do not, after all, have a self-conscious awareness of the world, and it is, after all, the mother's choice, so I'm sure they'll be setting up stab-before-6-months clinics soon.
I think it comes down to a choice of a woman because it's them who will bear the responsibilites and consequences of their action. With that said, let's say abortion is illegal and every woman that is pregnant has to bear a child regardless of their financial, mental state how fit they are to be a mother. The ones that are irresponsible, that end up killing their babies, or not taking adequate of their child, they are in trouble. Are those people who advocate pro-life, would they do their part to help these children? I'm inclined not to think so......resulting in health and human services being more burdened than it already is.
On a side note
http://boards.cannabis.com/womens-is...-abortion.html
yes its sad when things die, buts that is natureQuote:
Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
this brings up some deeper philosophical questions. Say a man has just received a large amount of money an is interested in purchasing a new sports car. He decided to go through with his purchase and goes for a drive.
As he is driving his brand new car, it breaks down on the train tracks. He gets out to inspect his vehicle when he hears yelling coming from down the tracks. He sees a young child stuck on the track and in dire need oh help. But then he sees a train coming! he has to make a choice between saving his car and saving the child. He just bought this car and doesn't want it to go to waste so he decides to push his car out of the way, and the young child die.
Now was he responsible for the death? I mean, he didn't actually kill the child, but easily could have saved him. Its a question of passive vs active participation. You passivley kill things everyday without your knowledge. Just because you don't break out a knife and stab someone doesn't mean your not doing harm to someone out there in the world.
the point is, thousands of kids die everyday and you have the power to save many of them. If you feel the man in that story did nothing wrong, then thats fine; however, if you feel the man is at fault, then you need to stop worrying about a few "precious clumps of cells" and worry about the living, breathing, feeling humans being that exist right now and are in need of your help.
So next time your shoving a cheeseburger down your throat talking about how bad abortion is and how sad it is when something dies, remember that someone else died because they didn't have a burger to eat (are you a vegan by the way? it would be hypocritical of you not to be)
oh come on man, please don't insult us. We just don't have disillusion of this happy perfect world where life is this sacred beautiful gift meant to be cherished and praised at all times. There are many kids that would be better off having being terminated at conception than dying slowly and painfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
If you really care about life so much and loathe the thought of people dying then abortion should be least of your worries. This is what bothers many of us, anti-abortion people who get all up in arms about such a silly issue but don't seem to be bothered by the systematic execution of innocent civilians in Congo or the impoverished, starving, disease strucken communities that are being painfully wiped out.
Excuse me for getting all humanitarian on you guys but if you care about life so much, focus on something that actually matters
Feedmeweed....I am a vegetarian (too hedonistic to be a vegan; nobody's perfect). And yes, I agree that there are much bigger problems, but that doesn't really take away from this. It's very easy to triviliaze basically anything by bringing up the situation in Africa, but that doesn't make everything else meaningless. If a man in Canada is shot, telling his family about the hundreds who died that day in Zaire is simply not going to fly. The impoverishment of the third world saddens me on a daily basis and if I had any money whatsoever I'd do what I could. That doesn't mean pre-emptive infanticide doesn't sadden me, though.
by the way overgrowthe govt. what have you don't to help the cause of life?
how much money have you donated to foster care? I mean, theres a lot of kids out there without families and group homes don't receive a ton of funding, have you helped them out?
how about how many kids have you adopted? theres thousands of them out there that need families, why don't you step up to the plate.
if you life in a state that allows couples to adopt would you vote against it? I certainly hope not since thats one more family that can take a few of the over 100 thousand (one hundred thousand) kids up for adoption in the US alone.
Its sure easy to whine about how bad it is but its a whole 'nother level to step up and do something about it
don't act on emotion, act with rational thoughtQuote:
Originally Posted by overgrowthegovt
Well, one reason any efforts by me would be absolutely futile is that I appear to have not one supporter, except those who also think gays should be lynched. Being 18 years old, I haven't adopted many, I'm afraid, and being very near broke and caring about a number of causes, abortion probably not falling in the top ten, they haven't gotten a whole lot of money from me. And I'll say it again, I agree abortion should be legal; I just have personal qualms is all, and I wish people weren't so flippant about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FeedmeWeed
I think a balance between the two is a good way to live life...people who triviliaze emotion tend to forget that life wouldn't be worth anything without it. I can think of love as neurons firing or I can think of it as a tender and beautiful phenomenon that connects two souls. People talk about how suspension of logical faculties is the root of all atrocity, but suspension of emotion is just as devastating. Long live Shelley and Keats.Quote:
Originally Posted by FeedmeWeed
I respect your opinion overgrowthegovt, and I apologize if anything I said offended you in any way.
We can dance around the questions going in a circle all day but its not going to get us anywhere. Yes it is sad when things die and yes we can argue over what constitutes life and what constitutes actually killing life but circular logic isn't going to get us very far.
The real question is "Do you think the world would be a better place, or a worse place with abortion?"
Personally, I feel abortion's pros outweigh the cons and do good service to our society. If you feel otherwise, that is fine, but please don't eliminate others choice to choose, because people have done it to our community and it sucks- we both know that. abortion is painful, you are correct there my friend, but I feel the pain it causes in the short run is less than the pain in the long run without it.
EDIT: and you are very right my friend, emotions are very nice, wouldnt be worth living without them. But theres a difference between acting on your emotions, and having emotions. I am not telling you to be an emotionless robot, I just want you to actively and thoroughly think thinks out before acting.
Emotions are great, no argument there, but they can cloud your rationality.
I respect your opinion too, and don't worry, I wasn't really offended; yeah, there are pros to abortion, I know; I was just trying to argue the cons because they seem to be largely ignored. And yeah, I'm not wanting them to prohibit anything, believe me. Nice discussion, my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by FeedmeWeed