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I dont think its always true... i would rather say one cant think without existing...
Well... maybe. Our consciousness is not our "self", our "i", so while we are bounded to be a percieving concsiousness, we still can leave our egos, our "i"s, and percieve them from outside with our pure consciousness.
And those who accomplish this learns that the sense of self is only another illusion, empty and void.[/QUOTE]
Coelho; Wow, that is heavy! Good thinking!:thumbsup:
Well, you can say that and be correct as i said what i said and was not incorrect. I know i exist because i am thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelho
I disagree that my sense of self is as you have described, even if i had that alleged knowledge. My point was that only non humans can have an objective view about humanity.
Well... i agree completly with it. But knowing you exist is not the same as just existing... and thats what i wished to point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
You may be right... but i think differently. I strongly believe (from my own experiences) that we call our "self", our "i" is only a small part of our entire consciousness. For example, right now im looking to my computers screen. Im seeing it. And im aware that "i" am seeing it. But even if i were not aware that "i" were seeing it, still i would be seeing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
The idea of an "i", of a self, is a thing we learn when children, from our parents and all older people, which help us to deal with the peoples world. But it is not a thing that is hardwired in our brains. Only the pure perception is. What i call "pure perception" is the ability to percieve the world without be constantly thinking "im seeing this, im hearing that, etc", the ability to just see, to just hear, without interpreting what we percieve, without fitting it into words, or concepts, or thoughts. It is a very unusual state of mind, but it can be accomplished by means of meditation, or by use of some psychedelics.
And like the idea of the self, almost all characters of "humanity" we people have are learned. When were children we learn what being a human is like, what we must do as humans, what we must feel as humans, how we must behave as humans, and so on. But they are not the only ways we can be. It is possible to think, to feel, and to behave in ways far different from the "standard" humans. But we are so used (or rather brainwashed) to be like humans that we dont even imagine we could be otherwise.
So, if a person can disentangle itself from the quirks of being human, it can actually percieve the human world as if viewed from outside. And im sure its what several mysticals, sages, and spiritual teachers did. They were able to see the human world from outside, and so they could delineate its strong and weak points, and give teachings to improve the human condition. And the fact they went outside the "normal" human scope would very well explain why their wisdom is frequently deep, far reaching, and sometimes thought as being "divinely inspirated". (Not that i dont believe in divine inspiration. But i think its not the only explanation)
BTW... If you ever had any experience with some stronger psychedelic, im sure you will understand what i meant with all this... :stoned:
Okay, i get what you're saying more clearly now. We are always perceiving, whether we are aware or not, so long as we exist. I'd say that to gain a complete, absolute, objective view of oneself it must be made by someone other then yourself. However, i will concede that the imagination is a powerful tool at our disposal and thus could allow us to gain an alternative perspective on ourselves as well as humanity in general. As children we are raised and taught by the status quo, as we become our own rational, progressive beings we are more aware of the world around us a thus we always have the choice to reject these teachings in favour of autonomy.
for the bee it is the good of the hive. for the wolf it is the hunt and the comforts of a well fed pack. for humanity it is the search for patterns and finding the point to existence. they are all valid reasons to live and they are all false. this is a journey to no particular destination, a pointless extravagance of creation which exists merely because it can. this is the universe expanding to explore every possibility and fill every niche before it too ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by BathingApes
merely asking the question is point enough. expecting some universal answer is going a step too far. each creature derives meaning from its circumstances. that is the point. no grand design but the patterns we perceive. no meanings but the ones we invent. no journey's end because the path is the only important thing.
of course you'll annoy the animals if you keep on poking them like this. here we've gone and invested generations into inventing answers to the question and you come along and ask us to explain ourselves. we trot out the standard answers and find them lacking, so we have to begin all over again. we have to start sifting through the patterns, aligning them where we can and coming to some conclusion that will satisfy for a few moments more.Quote:
....people feel uneasy and annoyed when you mention something like this, because it goes against everything they know.
an afterlife never was the be all end all of existence, it was merely the point at which we stopped asking. it was a satisfactory conclusion that allowed us to start searching through patterns more relevant to survival.Quote:
But if, it turns out there is no afterlife, what stops everything from being meaningless?
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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
This is very true. How can you know anything at all about yourself if you have nobody to compare yourself to, to see what you're not? The mind works in a funny way, it requires to give itself an identity, so it can identify the world around it and its place in it. To keep a certain identity, the mind will choose to see what it wants to see, to prove this identity to itself.
This is why when you mess up or do something stupid or act mean you tell yourself "oh that wasn't really me, I was just angry" or "I would have caught the ball but the sun was in my eyes". Things that you do that do not agree with your self concept cause dissonance, which is the type of thinking i described above. This is why it is hard to rely on yourself to get a completely accurate idea of yourself.
Nihilism! Alright, so I was too lazy to read the whole thread, so someone might have said something similar to what I'm gonna say.
Assuming there is no God, i.e. no repercussions for our actions, then we should do whatever we feel like doing. The point is that there is no meaning. Experiencing life doesn't give it meaning. Under these assumptions, we should do whatever we think will gain us pleasure. For some, that means lightin' up every day. For others, it means trying to live as comfortably as possible. In order to do so, an individual would sacrifice certain aspects of their free will and enter a social contract with other people, thus forming a society. According to the social contract, members of society will help each other under the premise that they will be helped as well. Not necessarily meaning communism or anything. Take capitalism for example. A banker lends money to an entrepreneur under the assumption the the entrepreneur will pay him back with interest. They are offering each other a service, each helping each other live a more comfortable life style. Look at it as you will. I'm not sure all of this was coherently written, but I'm tired of writing and don't feel like reading back over it. So, yeah.
Postmodernism. The problem is that you and BathingApes are arguing with different semantics. BathingApes is looking for an unbiased, universal answer. You're providing an answer built around an individual's perceptions. The question amounts to whether or not there is some sort of universal standard by which significance is attached to life. Basically, if God doesn't exist, then do whatever you want. There is no meaning in life. What you do will be totally and completely pointless. So do whatever you want.Quote:
for the bee it is the good of the hive. for the wolf it is the hunt and the comforts of a well fed pack. for humanity it is the search for patterns and finding the point to existence. they are all valid reasons to live and they are all false. this is a journey to no particular destination, a pointless extravagance of creation which exists merely because it can. this is the universe expanding to explore every possibility and fill every niche before it too ends.
I'd just like to see the Human Race Continue.Maybe one day we will defeat Death and Death will be an Option not an Inevitability.
IF we were an accident, the point would be to cope with the accident.
because there's nothing else you can do besides die. and if nothing matters, and death is the end, then what's the difference if you die sooner or later? if there IS no difference, then asking "why should we live" is the same as asking "why shouldn't we live"
it's a matter of choice i guess, nobody's answer will be the same. after birth, it's essentially up to you to make the distinction between "there's no point to this, i think i'll die" and "i'm going to die anyway, so let's die doing something worth dying for".
and i'd say the only thing worth dying for...is living.
I have spent (wasted, some may say) millions of hours pondering the original question "what is the point?", and still cant arrive at a proper answer.
The way I see it is this:
Think of the whole world (earth) as a living breathing machine.
Everything upon it, in it, is one tiny piece of a much bigger component. All these little components fit together to make the earth evolve and regenerate and sustain all the components in a never-ending cycle.
If we take a component and study it, we can see that there is a chain of events that occur to sustain that one component - the food chain of a particular species, for instance.
That component has its 'point' or purpose.
i think that is what the point of this thread is about.
However, if we take the human race as a component, then it becomes very difficult to see 'the point', as our component doesn't seem to compliment the evolution of the earth or its inhabitants.
One could be really mordant (someone like me lol) and say that we are just a cancerous blight on the face of this once beautiful life cell.
If when we die we just decompose as everything else does, and everything ceases to be, then that is a whole nother debate.
The expected 'point to life' is to get by as best you can.
How well you have managed that, certainly in our western society, is measured by the amount of wealth one has acquired - wealth not only in material terms, but in many others too.
The 'actual' 'point of life' (in my opinion) is surely to enjoy this wonderous 'fluke' of universal nature, adapt to it (rather than adapt it to us), and nurture and preserve it for our future generations. Then die satisfied in wonder and awe.
Unfortunately, the human being seems to have overdeveloped what I call 'the greed gene' and as a result tends to aspire to the 'expected point of life', rather than 'the actual point of life'.
Res...
ok i dont feel like reading 3 pages of posts so here is my 2 cents.
Life is just a probability. We are furtunate enough to be alive. just because there isn't a meaning to life dosnt mean it isnt special. imagine the universe existed with absolutely no life. it couldn't be appreciated in all its glory.
i debated this question to myself when i became an atheist and you know what. its made me a better person.its totaly turned me around. i work hard at school now, all i want is to know more about the universe because its just so amazing.
so its just how you look at it. you can either appreciate the opportunity or you can waste it.
Ah, but isn't that exactly backwards?Quote:
Originally Posted by BathingApes
Depending on how we approach the question, the meaning of life might not be that hard to understand: If there is a "Meaning", then there must be an organizing force with an agenda. Now, if there is a force capable of designing the universe, life, us, and etc. in order to achieve a particular goal, then it stands to reason that the universe is a necessary (to the creating being) tool of such great complexity that we cannot even begin to understand the end goal.
On the other hand, say the universe exists because the universe exists, say the laws of physics and the basic functioning of the universe around us exist simply because they exist and not because something bigger decided that he/she/it wanted this all to exist. That means that we have at our disposal certain resources: our time, our minds, our friends and acquaintances, our finances, and etc. We have the ability to manage the resources at our disposal and to combine resources toward common goals. We can build things together of great complexity that will still stand long after we as individuals are dead. We can build cultures and institutions, machines and infrastructure, literature and art, we can inspire those around us, we can learn and improve, and it all matters.
Now, the thing is, that under the second vision - the one where reality is reality and we don't need outside beings to make everything worthwhile - is not a vision devoid of meaning and beauty. Being able to explain the physics (dust particles, condensation, refraction, light wavelengths, etc.) of a sunset does not rob it of its beauty. A Thing can be more than the sum of its parts, and is not robbed of it's beauty by explanation. Life is more than the sum of its parts. What we build matters, how we live and interact with our neighbors matters, and what we leave behind (both in the sense of the outcome of our lives' works, and the memories and impression we have left on our friends, families, neighbors, and associates).
So no, life without gods, goddesses, daemons, ghosts, afterlife, prelife, purgatory, heaven, hell, reincarnation, etc. is not without meaning - IT'S LIFE!, Hell, how much more meaning can you get than that: THIS IS LIFE, don't screw it up 'cause it's all you've got. When you do screw up, learn from your mistakes, 'cause this is life and it's the only one you've got. Help others when you can, if you can make someone else's life better without sacrificing too much yourself, then do so - this is the only life they will get too.
It could only be stripped of meaning if we decide to make it so, by imagining (for instance) that everything we see and do every day were nothing but some kind of pre-show for heaven or for the amusement of some creature so advanced that we are like ants in comparison (aka a god).
It seems that most people agree you only live one time... I do not know if this is true or not. However, if we look at life in this way (one and done) then it is easy to say that nothing matters. I see where this comes from. So This outlook seems rather bleak...I'm basically screwed in the end so "let's just enjoy the time we have".
I too enjoy the time I have. I'm just surprised nobody has said anything about reincarnation. It seems most of the ideas here are compatible with reincarnation and it gives you the "why should I live/lead a good life" aspect. There is a lot of research to back up past lives and that the soul exists after death. It is a very old idea that pops up a lot throughout history.
Look at how many religions include reincarnation in thier ideology. Reincarnation was initially accepted by the Christian faith until it became the state religion of Rome. It is also pointed out that an underground of mystical movements such as the Gnostics, Cathars, Sufis, and Kabbalists have always accepted reincarnation as a core spiritual belief.
Look at Socrates' very convincing arguments for the immortality of the soul. The one that originally got me was in the Phaedo when socrates is on his death bed . Do you people really not believe in the soul? Read some other books, do some research. I recently read "many lives many masters" by brian weiss and I recommend it for anyone with an open mind. It made a lot of sense to me.
Maybe the life you're living is just one plane of the many that every soul must live and learn on. There are certain lessons you have to learn here on earth. You have to keep coming back till you do whatever you need to do. This theory could help explain child phenoms, people that can speak foreign languages with no training, and many people that can recall past lives under hypnosis. Sometimes you carry things from a past life to your current one.You have to keep coming back until you learn what you have to learn. The goal is to become god-like through knowledge. The unexamined life is not worth living. Even if you don't believe in these things you still owe it to yourself to learn about everything you can. These are all just thoughts to get you started. Do some research. I feel like I'm writing a book.
A question I've been thinking about lately...(maybe someone can help me out)... If you apply this reincarnation model or whatever to life with the idea of evolution. Did souls always exist, even in the earliest humans or even prehumans? Does this mean apes and such have souls? Or was it over the course of history people discovered this soul? Surely it can't be that at some point everyone just got a new soul. Where did they come from, when did it all start? This is all assuming you believe in one soul, many bodies mind you.
Douglas Adams might say:
In the entire wonderfully long and strange history of the universe, only two people ever came close to figuring out the true meaning of life. One was a galforaxian named Tuz Hjark who spent 100 years in an intense ritualistic meditative coma as was customary to his peaceful people. The other was a human from the planet earth who had recently smoked the leaves of a weed commonly used as an intoxicant. Putting aside his rudimentary smoking device he proclaimed to his red-eyed friends, "Dude... I just got it. I mean like, all of it!" Unfortunately, moments after making his statement, the earth was vaporized by a Vogon construction ship making way for an intergalactic bypass.
hehehe :DQuote:
Originally Posted by partcleguy
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Originally Posted by DrSpoof
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Originally Posted by MadSativa
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Originally Posted by bhouncy
I thought these were good!Quote:
Originally Posted by vej33
Survival is the reason for life. All other life forms on earth have a main theme in common and its survival. I find the best way to look at things like this is to take the entire animal kingdom (except humans) and think about it in that perspective. Humans have just complicated the equation with all our feelings and extreme emotions. It can either be a beautiful gift or a dangerous tool depending on how we decide to use it.
awesome...that was the most beautiful thing ive ever read of yoursQuote:
Originally Posted by rebgirl420
and we dont "cease" to exist when we die topic starter. Our energy, just transcends into another part of the universe. so dont worry, its never over. our bodies are light, our minds are eternal
and maybe the only reason there has to be a meaning, starts with our questions..meaning...if you dont question, but accept, then everything is understood
we are here to evolve
learn
teach
expand
live
build
have sex
create children
pass on our knowledge to the next generation of your family.
thats the point
there is no point. even if it wasn't a cosmic accident, what would be the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by BathingApes
that doesnt necessarily have to be a bad thing. theres no point to organized sports, but that doesn't mean they're not fun to watch and participate in.
there is no point. your are an organism that eventually will be overcome with bacteria and then you will cease to function.
Life beyond death? science = no.
but is science the ultimate law?
I tend to think not.
Everything in the universe is recycled and reused. If you take into consideration that souls are indeed in our bodies then we don't cease to exist we are just recycled and reused,or in other words, reincarnation. That's just my view. :hippy:
Indeed... and who knows if this life isnt only a game too?Quote:
Originally Posted by higher4hockey
We are a freak...
An accident...
We evolved by chance...
Really we are the final plague to hit the earth...
Cannabis 2012...
"The year of the Leaf"
but...if that were at all true... if we were the final plague... then... what are the Jonas Brothers?Quote:
Originally Posted by dossantos
the beginning of the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by vej33
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Originally Posted by JeffersonBud
I came into this thread with the same answer...I can totally agree. I also think it's important to appreciate life for what it is and the gifts we experience throughout the whole "ride". Even the fact that nobody knows what happens when we die is more of a reason to appreciate this life. That is what I truly believe.
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Originally Posted by BathingApes
Because, We would like Our Human Race to Continue.It is as close to immorality as we Can get.
I really don't see why there has to be "a point".
Live it, love it,accept the moment for all it is, learn what you can from it, and try to pass on something worthwhile.
there must be a point to it all because otherwise humanity is merely another unimportant bit of life in the vastness of the universe and i don't think our collective ego could stand that. we have spent thousands of years convincing ourselves of our importance in the grand scheme of things and to realize, to truly understand, that it makes no difference whether we exist or not would probably cause mass hysteria around the world. all of the efforts of humanity to rise to the top of the food chain, to be masters and stewards of all we survey across this wet little ball in space would be for naught if there weren't some point to it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
:rolleyes:
You've obviously never met my son . . . :smokin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue
Honestly, in a nut shell, we as humans create thought and everything that surrounds it. The only person that can give meaning to life is the self. You have to find your own reason to live, it's pretty much that simple. The greatest thing some people discover is a legacy, a part of you that will exist after your gone, or some people just live life to the fullest and don't hold back.
There are so many different views though, like if death is inevitable then why hold back on anything, go skydiving or what not, But some people believe that its not worth the risk of there life, something that holds all possibilities of happiness. Two extremes.
The real question should be, when u die, was life worth living?
Whether you find meaning in your life depends on each individual.
It seems to be a basic part of human nature to seek meaning in things. We have an innate desire to quantify, qualify, and name everything. The truly unexplainable gives us fits.
Nothing is more unexplainable than death. Is it the end, or do we continue with the sense of self intact? No one knows, but many have quantified, qualified, and named it nonetheless.
For myself, I don't need to know what happens when I die. I'm sure I'll find out. :D In the meantime, I just try to enjoy myself as much as possible without hurting anyone else and just be groovy to the folks I come across. That's meaning enough for me.
A bit trivial I think.
We probably are here by accident, i.e. no creator. But, that doesn't devalue life or take away from the natural beauty of things - all things. The universe doesn't owe you a feeling of purpose. If one does not value life- whether it has been lost or left undiscovered- then you have the choice of dying.
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Originally Posted by Stoner Shadow Wolf
Allow me to further expound on this; if we are an accident, then there is no objective, no ulterior purpose, other than to learn how to cope with being here.
As being an accident, and in tandem as having not yet been exterminated, there is no point, we're an accident, but we're still here and have no choice, since we havent been exterminated yet.
So the point is in our choosing until we are either exterminated or relocated (within reality/universe).
If we are an experiment, however, which is required to appear and function "accidentally", then we are being cultured to become something, or to find out what we are capable of becoming.
Keep in mind that all parts of reality are composed of smaller parts, and all parts are used to construct larger parts... We are an accidental/experimental "part" that is still developing/in development.
Because we have no other choice. We are here and I don't fucking know why but we are, so enjoy it. Who cares if we were an accident? This life is a gift, the mind is a gift, knowledge is a gift. Take advantage of it and don't waste any time. This is your only chance man, so take it.:rastasmoke:
There doesn't have to be a point, unless you require it. Then you make up your own point, or accept someone else's point.
Other than that, we are here, being part of the whole, as an expression of the universe's unplanned effort to understand its self.
or going on a rampage huh.....Quote:
Originally Posted by colour