Printable View
redline,
I'm very interested in building my own array. I recently bought a procyon and now I want to start building my own. I have similar questions of others. such as what exactly do I need to buy and how to exactly design the array. is there any books you recommend to read or certain websites to go to. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
There are no books since this is the very beginning of serious homebuilding and experimentation. To be honest I don't think there is any advantage at this time to using LEDs, except for a strong desire to experiment. While they are now working, they have yet to come close to out producing HIDs ( think however, that is very close to happening with SNStealth).
LED arrays can be quite difficult to build and get working right. You need to have at least a basic electrical/electronics background and be able to do light mechanical and electronics construction. I have been spending some time on the "perfect LED" string. One of the guys is having some problems, even though he sounds like he has a pretty good grasp of electronic construction.
You might want to check out the entire string and jump on it with any questions.
There is scattered info on the internet, but you have to have some background to understand it.
Redline,
I have a basic understanding of electricity I took 3 physics classes in college and played around with car stereos a lot, but I need to brush up on my soldering and schematic symbols and ohm's law, its been awhile. I wasn't too clear in my last post. also, thanks for the link to the other thread.
I started to read through the "perfect LED", but its rather long.
Thanks
That's good enough, you got the basics. I can work you through it.
First decision: Scrog or regular grow ? This will make a big difference in the construction techniques.
I lean heavily towards SCROG or plants trained with a flat growing surface.
If you go SCROG you build your lights where they are spread out. If you are growing taller plants, you go with a "Brick" type design like Procyn where you got a lot of wattage in a small area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redline
That sounds fantastically logical. Shift the grow light paradigm. Is this new direction on paper yet? Very exciting.
One of the issues with wider flat panels vs. the traditional high output fixed source is that wider panels will make some plants farther from certain LEDs. Not so bad if you have all 450 and 660 LEDs but if you start sprinkling in a few far reds in the panel, some buds won't see the light.
Unless you just went with many more bulbs or the sprinkled LEDs were simply higher output to reach better / broader.
Yeah, I got it on paper and got all the materials, started doing the metal work, just have been really short on time.
The problem with all the commericial panels is they use 5mm LEDs which are next to useless, you are far better off with CFLS.
My system is not actually a panel, but a system of small brick type units using high power LEds like the K2s and LEDengins. Each module is between 12 to 15 watts and can be individually adjusted for height and angle plus can be placed precisely at the desired location in the 2' x 2.5' grid, so you can fine tune it to the growth contour.
My only problem left to solve is the cooling. Individual fans on each heatsink are power hogs using about 3 watts per fan...plus they also complicate the construction. I am trying to work on a unit type cooling system design that only uses 1 to 3 fans to cool the 12 lamp modules.
Hmmm... Coolong is big. I've read that the LEDs run more "true" color, efficient and lower wattage when cool.
On a ScrOG, would it be necessary to have all of that height and angle variability? If you're training the bud and have them all the same height within 2"-3" , and the ScrOG is flat as a pancake, seems that a really flat panel would work. Assuming you have the higher intensity 5W+ LEDs that have an active projection range of 12" maybe?
I haven't grown anything yet and obviously have a limited grasp. That's why I'm asking. Hope that's OK...
It is all still experimental, so no one really knows what is going to work best.
At least for me, it is very hard to hold a scrog grow within 2 to 3 inches. It is best to stop training before 2d week of budding and there will still be some uneven growth after that.
Getting LEDs to really work, especially without using a focusing lens, you should be within 1 to 3 inches of the top. . Making the lights adjustable is not that big a deal, so I just went ahead and incorporated it into the design.
Sounds great. Obviously flexability is more powerful, and I certainly see your point about hovering 1-3" over the top of the ScrOG
I see most builds are using a single LED for Blue and one for red. Consider those to be the primary wavelengths. Physics et al had done a lot of work looking into a range of secondary wavelengths. That seems very reasonable, but hard to incorporate a sprinkling of these secondary and expect them to hit all pats of the plant.
I wonder about a round panel that simply rotated?
Rotation or some kind of movement is probably not a bad idea and something to be looked at as we move forward.
Nobody, especially guys working at our level and with MJ, has any kind of solid handle on light wavelength ratios, etc. This all needs to be sorted out.
Even if you knew that plants like a ratio of 3 red to 1 blue of the amount of photons received, it would be very difficult to translate that into the proper ratio of LEDs used.
First blues put out a lot more photons then reds since the higher the frequency of light the more power delivered. Calculating this is very difficult if not impossible without a specialized computer program and better mfg. specs or access to a radio spectrometer.
My best guess is if you use the usual 3 red leds to 1 blue led, you might actually be delivering more blue light to the plant.
I suspect that plants have a great deal of flexibility to utilize whatever light comes their way and dicking around with light ratios may not be as important as many believe.
Thanks for that insight on the blue to red ratios.
Am I mistaken or has the venerable Sns had good success from veg to bud with his Procyons? I seem to remember maybe he's augmenting with some red or something as a separate panel?
If he's had success with the product quality (as compared to the parallel goal of energy efficiency), he seems like the only guy that's describing his satisfaction. Is his Procyon + augmentive panel not the model to follow?
The red / Blue scenario you're describing might explain why veg seems to have worked better than flowering.Quote:
Originally Posted by redline
I'm not so sure on the plants flexibility on wavelength. While I would subscribe to there being some deviation from lab to field, or also subscribe to some higher plants requiring slightly different coctails, It seems that if they don't get what they want they just don't do as well.
But who knows, is your very good point.
SNS achieved 2 notable marks,
1. He was the second guy to document on the Internet a complete front to back LED grow. He was the first to do it with a commerical LED unit.
2. He was the first to achieve a comparable yield on a per plant only basis with HIDs. Each of his plants produced an amount comparable to a plant grown under
HID.
No one has yet documented a growth where LEDs have reached a total crop yield of .5 gram/watt/month which is the benchmark for a competent HID grower. Best as been slightly over .3 gram/watt/month by a Dutch guy.
So at this time, there is no evidence that LEDs can outperform HIDs.
The commericial units have to make a bunch of compromises in order for them to be a viable commercial venture. I think the guys making the stuff at home are going to hit the .5 g/w/m mark first.
I do not like any of the commercial models for MJ growing. They are all what Veggi coined as the "brick" design. They concentrate a lot of wattage in a small area. They range from 100 watts to 300 watts per unit with LEDs packed into a very small area.
Lets take the Procyn since it is actually the best one to use for MJ.
50 to 60 watts per square foot is the norm for HID coverage. For us to be energy efficient with LEDs, we are shooting for 30 to 40 watts per square foot.
The Procycns lLEDs are mounted on a .5 square foot platform and have to project a footprint 5 to 6 times larger or 2.5 to 3 square feet. to get the desired watt/sq.ft ratio. That means the Procycn probably has to be mounted at least a foot above the top of the plants. (I would like someone with a Procyn to help me out with getting a more exact number).
What if you took the about the same number and same wattage of LEDs and mounted them over a 3 square foot area, with the ability to place each of the six 16 watt light modules where they will do the most good.
Now adjust the height of each module where it is 1.5 inch above the top of the plant. Adjust the angle of the modules on the border of the grow area so they are pointed into the grow without wasted light.
Since you are so close to the plants, you don't have to use lenses to gain penetration and save the 15% loss. So now the 100 watt homemade unit is comparable to an "85 watt" Procycn. You now have about 73 times as much light energy hitting the tops of the plants as compared to a Procycn at 1 foot. This is the only way LEDs are going to be able to outperform HIDS.
Obviously you will have to structure growing methods and plant type to meet this structure. I think what we really need to work on is getting the most amount of light energy possible to the plants instead of theorizing about precise light wavelength ratios. That can all be sorted out later.
Please keep in mind this is just my opinion and results have yet to be confirmed.
Red you have such a great handle on all of this. I'm really glad I found this forum.
I have a small discrete growing area ready and this will obviously work much better if I have less heat venting issues. Obviously I need to vent some.
So i'd like to take the plunge and see what comes of it. Use what "the collective" has for best data and go with it. Is there a recommendation for a system for a 2x3 ScrOG?
If there's a thought about using the secondary wavelengths to augment primary, I could go circular and rotate.
Thanks for any thoughts.
Actually, how cold you possibly rotate with a power cable attached... Maybe that's a poor thought.
Now you're getting into my secret design, and it's not a poor thought. Clue: Search slip ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Projman
Slip ring... sounds like something I hurt my unit with one day but never told anyone...
Thanks for that seriously. I will look at this.
Holy crap that's the ticket. A slip ring. So Opie you have an inclination to rotate an array, really?
There may not be a need to rotate or move light if you can get the proper light placement. My latest design lets you easily manually move the light in 1/2 inch increments in an x/y axis and rotate each module about 180 degrees in the same plane.
Each module can also be set up to rotate in the z plane to get the correct angle.
The frame is 2' x 2.5 ' for a 5 square foot area. I will use a 24 volt 180 watt led driver on each frame. I am aiming for 30 to 35 watts per square foot.
I will use 12 modules in the frame in a 3x4 grid. Each module will be in the 12 to 14 watt range and have a quick disconnect plug into the grid framework (Lets call it the motherboard) wiring. Using K2 reds,royal blue and whatever else I have laying around. I may integrate some LED engin 660nms into some of the modules or I may use them (about 40 to 50 watts) as "Boost Lighting" during the last 4 weeks. I am keeping my options open. By using the module concept with only a few LEDs on each heatsink. I can easily subsitute each module for one with a different color ratio mix.
The heat sinks (available through a shop on EBAy at a very good price) are big enough that I do not need to use a fan on top of each. I am going to try cooling the area above the heat sinks with a ducted air current that will also help to get rid of smell. If need be, I will have the flexibility to mount fans on each module.
I am going to start building the frame next week and will post pictures and details.
If anyone wants to get started on one, I will answer any questions.
I have kept construction simple, all materials are available from OSH or HD.
You will need basic tools: A cheapy drill press, but a hand drill will get you by,
hacksaw and taps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Projman
Ain't no cable onna plant.
So, who you gonna spin?
Just set the girl onna Roomba, then confuse it.:D
Weetard
I don't think there is a great need to move the lights.
The major benefit with light movers is for HIDs and I don't see too much benefit for LEDs.
1. you got a single point of light which needs to be moved to get an even coverage. With LEDs you just spread them out instead. And get the colors arranged so that the plants get their share of each wavelength. BH seems to address this by throwing the kitchen sink at them and using warm whites that cover a very wide range.
2. You can get the HPS much closer to the plant since you won't have the heat buildup. No problemo with LEDs since they can almost touch the plant.
Wow! You are really thorough.Quote:
Originally Posted by redline
I usually just "redneck it up" with spit and duct tape.
My first 14 Watt panel was stuffed with 12 degree 10mm. LEDs
The narrow beam angle made red and blue spots until the panel was 18" from the tops of the tomatoes.:)
Bought a Graco "baby swing" at a garage sale.
Removed the "motor", hung it from the ceiling and used it to swing the light to and fro.
Neat little bugger, ran 18 hours a day for weeks on two D cells .
Just provides a "kick" that keeps the panel swinging.
But the tick, tick was keeping me awake.
That, and cheap duct tape gets crappy when the temerature hits 90F.
'bout time I built sumpin' I can be proud of.
I no gotta be brilliant.
Just gotta stay bright enough to recognize good ideas when I read 'em.
I'm gonna be haunting this thread and pickin' your brain if ya don't mind.
"Give people a light, and they will follow it anywhere" -F.T.:D
Mahalo nui,
Weezard
I'm kind of the same way, I come from a long line of rednecks.
I figure things out as I go along. I really like to recycle junk that I can put to good use, but in this case I had to bite the bullet and buy everything new in order to meet design parameters.
I just wasn't completely happy with the brick units I built so I am looking to move on to the next stage of progress. I hope it pans out. I got a crap load of money going into it. Almost as much as a Procycn. I am making it easily upgradable so I can plug in new LEDs as they hit the market.
I like the baby swing idea.
I have my hand way in the air! That sounds like exactly what I need for my ScrOG. Man oh man.Quote:
Originally Posted by redline
Ok here we go with the materials. I will have to give it in segments as I think of things.
Please be patient since I am really having to squeeze to find time for this. As I recall you were looking for a 10 foot area, so you would need to build 2 or them. I would suggest starting with one and see how that works for you.
By the way, in addition to the basic metal working tools, you will need a digital multimeter and a basic understanding of electricity and Ohms law. You will also need a temperature controlled soldering station, preferably digital.
1. Main Power Supply. I am using a commercial 24 volt 180 watt LED driver to power the entire frame. I can supply circuit design if you want to go with something else like a 12 volt supply. At the risk of being blackballed from this forum, I am going to pimp out some of my extra power supplies. I had to buy a large quantity of them to get a good price, so got a bunch of extras. $40 for the 120v units. I also got four 220 volt units, for $20 each and whatever shipping runs. I think I posted a picture of them earlier in this string.
2. Secondary power supply, some kind of 12 volt unit at least 2 amps, or you can use several smaller current units.Even a big wall wart will work. Not really critical since it will be used to power fans and illuminate some digital volt and amp panel meters which will be used for monitoring.
2. Heat sinks. I got them from a guy on Ebay. I buy a whole slab and he will cut them to size. Really good price. I have posted links several times on both strings. The slab will cost you a little over $100 bucks with shipping and you will have enough for two frames. The size is 4 1/8" measured across the fins and 4" in the direction of the fins.
You got 120 square inches of cooling surface or enough to cool 12 watts without any airflow, so we will have to get something going to get them cooled down. I am going to start engineering the cooling system towards the middle and end of the project. Worst case, I can strap a computer fan on the top of each module.
3. A crap load of K2 emitters (from Future Electronics). Let's say 60 percent red, 20 percent royal blues, 10 percent cool white, 10 percent warm white. But feel free to use whatever you think is going to work. You will be using between 8 or 11 of them per board. I will work up some different combos, but your guess is as good as mine.
Might as well pick up a handful of 5 watt 660nms also (Mouser) if you are feeling expansive and got a few bucks to blow.
Holler at me before you order the LEDs and I will make sure you are getting the right bins. I go with the highest ones available.
4. Artic Alumina or Artic Silver Adhesive.
List to be continued in next post.
Very Good. Thank you. My grow is 2x2 or 2x3 so 1 unit will work just fine.
List continued:
5. Digital Panel meters. You can get these cheap on EBay from a large distributer in China. You need a 200 dc meter, a 20 amp meter and one or two of the 3 amp meter.
6. 12 Cinch-Jones male and female plugs. The female are panel mount, the male are cable mount.
That should take care of all the goodies needed to construct the modules. Let me know if any help is needed sourcing the items.
I will post pictures and details of the metal needed for the mainframe construction. You can pick that stuff up locally.
A couple of nice items to have if you think you are going to be playing around with LEDs are a variable voltage/current adjustable power supply with a digital readout... about $160. And an infrared remote thermometer... $60 to $150.
Projman....Are you still with us?
Here is the grow info.
12 plants (max allowed in my area for meds) under the mainframe in a 3 x 4 array. You could also go with 6 larger plants. I use 7 inch square buckets placed in a 2 x 3 cement mixing tub from Home Depot.
I grow in CoCo and hand water since it very forgiving of screwups and I don't have to worry about equipment failure. I can't say enough good things about CoCo.
I don't use a scrog net since I like to be able to move individual plants for maintenance, trimming and more important being able to place them for optimal lighting as the grow larger.
The buckets have slots on the sides making it very easy to train the plants and keep them low using wire ties. I train them in a circle around the perimeter of the bucket. If I go with larger plants, I use a wood trellis (pics somewhere on this forum).
I am definitely with you. Definitely. Taking the shopping list and sourcing / getting parts numbers and ordering this weekend. Thanks so much.
I hope that others will find this as beneficial as I do.
Again, I'll be looking at maybe 5-6 square feet. 2x3 or so. I'm really excited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redline
Thanks
Thanks againQuote:
Originally Posted by redline
I don't seem to be authorized to check my PM page... Not sure if I haven't hit the critical # of posts yet or what...
Arctic Silver Alumina Thermal Adhesive
Is that enough Arctic Silver? I don't know if I need syringes or pails of the stuff.
God, I feel that I'm asking the dumbest questions. Please don't give up on me... :icon506:
I am guessing 3 tubes of the artic silver adhesive. Be sure to get the adhesive not the grease.
.
For the heat sinks go to EBAy and enter "HEATSINK ALUMINUM EXTRUSION 8 1/2 WIDE PROFILE" into the search. Once you get to the ad contact the guy by message and tell you a whole slab chopped up just like I described.
Proj, Do you have a digital multimeter?
Proj,
I sent you a PM. Let me know if you get it.