Do it right and spend the money.. you get what you pay for.
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Do it right and spend the money.. you get what you pay for.
When you make light, you're going to generate heat. The advantage of CFLs is that the curvy shape gives a larger area for heat to dissipate. That means they cool more easily and quickly (and nearer the light). But if you put a ton of them in a cab, you're going to end up with plenty of heat. HPS and MH are actually more efficient..they generate less heat too--but it's all coming from one single spot/bulb. Less surface area = more heat when on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Yutts
The big problem, again, is efficiency. HPS and MH lights are a little more efficient than CFLs when you've got a 70w HPS/MH. The bigger the HPS/MH light, the bigger the advantage in efficiency. At thier best--and it's usually around 23-40w bulbs--CFLs produce about 70 lumens per watt. Look at this comparison.
23w CFL produces 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens per watt
27w CFL produces 1850 lumens = 68.5 lumens per watt
40w CFL produces 2800 lumens = 70.0 lumens per watt
About the same efficiency. (CFLs get less efficient when they're bigger than 40w.) But look at HPS lights:
70w HPS produces 5350 lumens = 76.4 lumens per watt
150w HPS produces 13400 lumens = 89.3 lumens per watt
250w HPS produces 24000 lumens = 96 lumens per watt
400w HPS produces 45000 lumens = 112.5 lumens per watt
As they get bigger,it's a huge difference. (And those aren't "special" or fancy bulbs; they're the PlusRite cheapies from 1000bulbs.com. 12 CFLs don't generate as much heat as a 400w HPS. But check it out.
12 x 26w/1800 lumens = 21600 lumens
250w HPS = 24000 lumens
400w HPS = 45000 lumens
12 CFLs generate less light than a 250w HPS! So that's what you'd want to compare it to for heat, stress, etc. A 400w HPS is a totally different matter. It's producing over twice as much light as 12 CFLs...and using only 28% more energy to do it.
which is why, for larger grows, you have to go HPS/MH. CFLs are great for smaller area--IMO, under 3 sq. ft. After that, you need to many that the number of sockets and bulbs and the lesser efficiency makes it a nightmare. Just my .02.When you make light, you're going to generate heat. The advantage of CFLs is that the curvy shape gives a larger area for heat to dissipate. That means they cool more easily and quickly (and nearer the light). But if you put a ton of them in a cab, you're going to end up with plenty of heat. HPS and MH are actually more efficient...they generate less heat too--but it's all coming from one single spot/bulb. Less surface area = more heat when on.
The big problem, again, is efficiency. HPS and MH lights are a little more efficient than CFLs when you've got a 70w HPS/MH. The bigger the HPS/MH light, the bigger the advantage in efficiency. At thier best--and it's usually around 23-40w bulbs--CFLs produce about 70 lumens per watt. Look at this comparison.
23w CFL produces 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens per watt
27w CFL produces 1850 lumens = 68.5 lumens per watt
40w CFL produces 2800 lumens = 70.0 lumens per watt
About the same efficiency. (CFLs get less efficient when they're bigger than 40w.) But look at HPS lights:
70w HPS produces 5350 lumens = 76.4 lumens per watt
150w HPS produces 13400 lumens = 89.3 lumens per watt
250w HPS produces 24000 lumens = 96 lumens per watt
400w HPS produces 45000 lumens = 112.5 lumens per watt
As they get bigger,it's a huge difference. (And those aren't "special" or fancy bulbs; they're the PlusRite cheapies from 1000bulbs.com. 12 CFLs don't generate as much heat as a 400w HPS. But check it out.
12 x 26w/1800 lumens = 21600 lumens
250w HPS = 24000 lumens
400w HPS = 45000 lumens
12 CFLs generate less light than a 250w HPS! So that's what you'd want to compare it to for heat, stress, etc. A 400w HPS is a totally different matter. It's producing over twice as much light as 12 CFLs...and using only 28% more energy to do it.
Which is why, for larger grows, I think you have to go HPS/MH. CFLs are great for smaller area--IMO, under 3 or 4 sq. ft. After that, you need so many that the number of sockets and bulbs and the lesser efficiency makes it more difficult. But Opie--if it's working for you, good deal. If it ain't broke! :D Just my .02.
i researched PGLs and it seems that cfl's are just as effecient as Hps, a lot of times, people are mad at cfl's because they not putting up enough lumens, and in the end thats going to kill your yield, 50,000 or 100,00 cfls are good period, and for poor people this is a good way to step up to a high quality product, just buy about 40 to 60 watts CFL every payday, or any time you get money and you'll start having amazing success, there is a guy on one of these forums that grew 15 1/2 ounces with 940 watts of CFL light. The results are what matter. A pound is a pound.
Has anyone ever checked how much power a lamp draws? I have and found something very very surprising. I used an amp probe and measured the amps a "250" watt cfl draws and what a "400" watt HPS draws. What came up was the "250" cfl ONLY DREW 0.9 amps@115 VAC the HPS "400" drew 3 amps @115VAC. Using ohms law, the "250" cfl is only consuming 103.5 watts. The "400" HPS is consuming 345 watts. Why are they called 250 watters? This makes total sense because a 8U cfl bulb uses T5 tubes if you were to stretch out all the tubes of a 8U, you would get a little over 15 feet of T5 tubing. A 4 ft T5 tube draws 28 watts. If you take 4 X 4ft T5 you would get 112 watts. I don't believe a "250" watt cfl puts out 15000 lumins though. I believe it is closer to what a T5 puts out which is around 95 lm/w so a so called 250 watt cfl is in around 9832 lumins.
My point is if you want to make a fair comparison between cfl and HPS, you got to use the same or close to the same amount of watts. Most comparison done so far used way to few cfl bulbs because we all believed the wattage on the box. an ideal test condition would use 3 X "250" watt cfl's vs. 1 X "400" watt HPS. All you nay sayers can do this current drw test yourself and see that these numbers are correct. All you need is a amp probe clamp on meter and takes only a few seconds to get a reading.
Pretty much everything in the longer post by simpletbrain above is garbage. Don't use 5000k bulbs when 6500k are available. He's using mini LEDs instead of 1w LEDs. His math is totally and completely wrong on the LEDs and with respect to light/distance for HPS and MH (lumen output for HID lighting is determined much farther away than for CFLs). HPS and MH put out gobs of light at the 400mh and 700mh spectrum...for God's sake, pretty much everyone has grown and grown well with MH and HPS. Check the grow logs on here. Light from any source decreases in intensity in exponential relation to distance; the amount is the square of the distance form the source. Double any distance from a source and the amount of light will be one quarter of the previous amount. This goes for M,. Hps, CFL...everything. It's why you have to keep CFLs very close to plants...within 1â? or (at most) 2â?. At 3â? from the plant, the plant gets Âź the amount of light it gets if the CFL is only 1 1/2â? away. Small distance changes from plants are much more important in CFLs grows...a shift of 2â? (from, say, 10â? to 12â?) with MH and HPS will have some effect, but not a huge one. A change from 2â? to 4â? with CFLs is the difference between growing something and getting pretty much nothing. I'd pretty much ignore that particular post, unless you want to tell everyone who is growing/has grown with HPS and MH that their lights don't work.
CFLs do work very well for two types of grows: SOG/SCROG and microgrows (less than 2 sq. ft.). The story that CFLs do not generate heat is false; they generate plenty of heat. You just don't feel it unless you've got a lot of them in a small space. Unfortunately if you grow more than two plants, you're going to need a buttload of CFLs in a small space. A 12â? x 24â? area will require about 150s of CFLsâ??6 of the 23-26w bulbs. You won't get much canopy penetration either (the distance square law applies to CFLS too), so you'll often need/want supplementary light.
bubbasâ??here's the thing. You need to figure out light production from the lights being used. Technically, you should see the PAR light a plant puts out...but, really, you can get a very good estimate by using color temperature (kelvin) and lumens. PAR amounts for bulbs are really hard to find; bulb temperature and lumens are pretty much universal. I'm a bit confused about your 250w CFL...for one thing, I've never seen that big of a CFL. If it's a 250w equvialent, it should be drawing around 65 watts. Here are some examples of those.
65 Watt Compact Fluorescents
These bulbs put out around 4000 lumens. (CFLS are, at best, around 70 lumens per watt in terms of efficiency, and tend to get get less efficient as they get larger). A 400w HPS puts out around 50000 lumens...about 11 times more. To get as much light, you'd need 11 of those bulbs...and that would be over 700 watts. Which makes sense, as CFLs are (much) more efficient than old style incandescent bulbs, but are about 30-45% less efficient (in light production per watt) than most HPS and MH lights.
p.s. Someone ought to take simpletbrain up on his offer to give away a 250w HPS. I can tell you from experience that a 250w HPS will grow four very nice 26-35" plants in an area of about 5 square feet. You'll need about 15-20 100w equivalent CFLs to match that...and you'll find that heat becomes an issue with that many CFLS too.
Roughrider, I'm in total agreement with you. A post like his is just an advertisement for the sale of LED equipment. I'm surprised that he didn't quote the name of the store he works at to make a sale!
I understood most of the math there. Even my friend who is more adept at it said <WTF?!?>! Seriously! With the narrow width of the LEDS (They are NOT omnidirectional), how many units would I need for my 4'x4' tent that has 7 plants? Take into account that ALL OF THE 4'x4' WILL BE TAKEN UP WITH CANOPY when the plants get to their fullest. How many? 1/sqft? Like you said, you MUST KEEP THE UNITS VERY VERY close to the plants.
So what... 16 units are REQUIRED for my grow area? Really?!? "16"???Quote:
Originally Posted by simpletbrain
Is anyone going to spend $1,000's of dollars on LED's for a 4'x4' grow area? NO!
Is that efficient? NO!
Can you set it and forget it for a week? NO!
16x125watts = 2,000watts. HHmmmmm........
Can you tell me again, how big of a Power Supply would I need to have in my computer tower to power 16 LED Panels?
You state numbers as if they are fact and show no "Real World" proof whatsoever. Does there exist a side-by-side comparison USING THE SAME STRAIN IN BOTH TESTS that ANYONE CAN READ AND VERIFY?
No.
You're full of shiit.
LED's may be a great lighting source in the future.... But so could ANYTHING ELSE! All you have to do is "Put Up" or "Shut Up"!
It's people like you who will RUIN the LED industry for growers!
You're full of shiit.
Some us can't afford LED lights, and there are those of us who would raise red flags just by buying HPS or HID lights. (think rural southern US). CFLs work just fine, and nobody takes a second glance when you buy a pack of CFLs at the local grocery or hardware store.....as long as you are only buying 1 or 2 packs at a time. Buying fixtures for CFLs at Lowes or Home Depot isn't going to raise any red flags either.
You can *DO* what you want, but personally, as a business owner, and a respected member of the community, I have to be very careful.
FWIW, I live in the middle of the Mississippi Bible Belt. Its a whole different world here.
having had the pleasure of viewing MSsteves CFL garden pics, and, sampling the fruits of his labor, I have to say, he's got it down :thumbsup: ...
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bubbasâ??here's the thing. You need to figure out light production from the lights being used. Technically, you should see the PAR light a plant puts out...but, really, you can get a very good estimate by using color temperature (kelvin) and lumens. PAR amounts for bulbs are really hard to find; bulb temperature and lumens are pretty much universal. I'm a bit confused about your 250w CFL...for one thing, I've never seen that big of a CFL. If it's a 250w equvialent, it should be drawing around 65 watts. Here are some examples of those.
65 Watt Compact Fluorescents
These bulbs put out around 4000 lumens. (CFLS are, at best, around 70 lumens per watt in terms of efficiency, and tend to get get less efficient as they get larger). A 400w HPS puts out around 50000 lumens...about 11 times more. To get as much light, you'd need 11 of those bulbs...and that would be over 700 watts. Which makes sense, as CFLs are (much) more efficient than old style incandescent bulbs, but are about 30-45% less efficient (in light production per watt) than most HPS and MH lights.
p.s. Someone ought to take simpletbrain up on his offer to give away a 250w HPS. I can tell you from experience that a 250w HPS will grow four very nice 26-35" plants in an area of about 5 square feet. You'll need about 15-20 100w equivalent CFLs to match that...and you'll find that heat becomes an issue with that many CFLS too.[/QUOTE]
Hey roughrider,
sorry i havn't checked this thread in awhile. Here are some pics of a 250 cfl these are NOT 60 watt cfl's They are suppose to be 250 watt but real time power consumption is 103 watts. We have built a few fixtures with four of these bulbs together and it only draws a total of 430 watts i'm not sure why we lost some efficiency maybe from the wiring. We will be testing two of these four lamp fixtures for a total of 860 watts and compare it to 1000 watt HPS. With eight bulbs i think the light distribution is going to do very well. Our goal is to grow 2.5 lbs. with these 860 watts. From light measurements our output is neck and neck with the HPS but it is more even at all pionts of our grow area...i think this is going to kick ass.