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Well my hydro guy wasn't there but I'm told by the OTHER DUDE THERE it's a very hot product right now and they have been hearing about some "pretty amazing" results with it.
That means I should use it and luckily the hubby was scheduled to "make a hydro run" tomorrow so we will pick some up. :thumbsup:
I promise you will not be disappointed, unless of course your plants are already in perfect condition and nothing more could help. I wouldn't be surprised, but as for my plants and I, we both need help.
WH, Rock and other folks, please listen or read carefully: Be sure to use a surfactant AKA wetting agent. If you don't, please do not use Liquid Light as you very well might burn your plants and burn them good. A wetting agent makes the liquid much less likely to form pools on the foliage, which is what causes the magnifying glass effect that will toast the leaves. I have tried Wet Betty and Penetrator. Wet Betty works and is slightly less expensive. Even less expensive is 1/2 teaspoon liquid dish detergent per gallon of water. I imagine that works to a certain degree since I see people everywhere saying that it will work. However, this Liquid Light is unlike anything else you may have foliar fed with. It is some weird, strong, (and expensive) stuff, and I highly recommend using the best surfactant you kind find. I firmly believe that this is Penetrator by Dutch Master, which also makes the Liquid Light. From my own personal experience it covers much better and makes a nice thin film on nearly 100% of the leaf, with very little, if any pooling. Wet Betty did not do this for me; seems like she covered maybe 50-80%. I believe this becomes especially important since directions call for the plants to be wet during lights on, while having the light as close as possible until the plants are dry, unlike other foliar feeds that say to spray just before the lights go out. For more independent studies about Penetrator vs other stuff visit the Dutch Master web site.
Furthermore: This stuff does some weird stuff to your plants. It makes them completely stand up straight and tall and with all their fan leaves stretching up and out, just like when you see the pictures that have captions like "Here's what a happy plant looks like." You can see the plant get shocked from this sudden transformation slightly, in the leaves as a few of them twist and curl for a couple days. This is nothing to be alarmed at since they straighten out later. The whole point is that I want you people to start at half strength. I have not used any other ratio at this point, and I'm thinking it's pretty much enough. Besides that stuff is damn expensive. If you like you can always increase the dose next time, and you can do this up to every other day.
Also don't be surprised if there is a slight bit of coloring or brown spots in a very few places. Just like a few dots where the combination of the light and chemicals did burn the leaf. This is only on a very small percentage of leaf surface area, like less than 0.01% or something. At least that's been my experience.
Opie,
you're 1 gracious dude when passing on offers. Wow, I mean, WOW.:thumbsup:
ok man, no worries, I'll just puuuuut it back in storage, I have a "touch" of OCD and I'm a "Tool-Guy". That combination equates to about 700 lbs of tools of many different types and trades collected over the years. When someone needs a piece of equipment, I'm "that" guy who gets the call. I do use all the equipment I have, just not all at the same time. I have some tools that were stored for 4 years including two 3000 mile relocations before i used it again, but it was there when i needed it.:D
its all about Karma my friend. I got a thing about Karma.Quote:
if indeed you planned on giving it to me. Now that I think about it you never said if you wanted anything for it,
if u intended to try it on the grow, i was ready to box it up. n/c;). (i have more than 1)
But, thanks for the honest self-reality check. Let me know if u change your mind.;)
btw- wagner makes some 'decent' sprayers for the D-I-Y'ers, but sometimes they are finiky. If I were closer, i'd come over and help ya knock out those cabinets in a hot minute.:thumbsup: truth be told, i have a backround with this type of equipment. I am intimately familiar with it and using it on cabinets.;)
now on to the Liquid Light.
1- with all due respect to your hydro-guy, i disagree, with backing.
According to the Dutchmaster site and the extensive info on this product, you can use from the first week of veg thru to the 4th week of flwr. It is not recomended for use after the 4th week, for the reasons you mentioned. I will take the word of the manufacturer.;) and Galina is in week 4.
2- yes, I am using the Penetrator and agree with your assessment of its effect on absorption rate in the leaves. I personally turn off the HPS and use CFL's til dry(10-15 mins), just because i am paranoid. Then I fire up the HPS.
3- one thing u didnt mention is the 15 inch minimum for your lights to be away from the plant when using LL as per DM.
This rule does not apply to CFL's, which are what I'm using for veg and they are 3-6 inches away, with zero ill effects.
4- Brown spots. according to the DM site, this is actually caused by a reaction between some product ingredients and airborne bacteria that exists everywhere on earth, except a class 100 cleanroom(more personal knowledge). They go on further to state that it doesnt happen all the time, just on occassion and don't panic.
5- the physical reaction u mentioned. I went into complete panic mode yesterday because after i gave LL I also lowered the HPS. (It was considerably high up and I was considering lowering for a couple weeks, but procrastinated.) Within 4 hrs of applying the LL, the leaves around the larger,taller flowers did what I call a 'funnel' effect. almost straight up!:wtf: SEE THIS POST, CLICK HERE This freaked me out and i thought maybe i was frying them with the light lowering, so i raised the HPS again. Today, I checked and confirmed I was less than 15 inches from the light when i got the funnel-effect". This is a NO-NO according to the DM site. I raised the HPS to 16 inches above the screen today and poked n hooked everything down and Galina recovered with no visible ill effects, so far.
I will find the pics I took and post here also, tomorow, after i take the 48 hr pix.mmmmmmkay?
It is also stated on the DM site, that you should see significant growth within 48 hrs, lets see.;)
6- dosage frequency and levels. Recommended to be twice per week, but DM does go further to say an "aggressive" grower could spray every 2 days, as u mentioned. I personally followed the directions to the "T" and gave a full dose and will reapply tomorow morning. If the leaves 'funnel' again, i will not panic and will wait.
Recommended dosage levels are 60ml/4 tbsp LL per 1 liter/qt of final spray solution. Spray til runoff. They also say you can store it mixed in solution for a week.
I simply used clean water as my spray solution.
BTW- Penetrator dosage level is the same. I make up 1 cup water/1 tbsp LL/1 tbsp Penetrator. This is enough for 2 application sessions to everybody in the room.:D
7- "Blazing Saddles" a true classic of American comedy. Mel Brooks was certainly an insane genius. It is a MUST for every DVD collection,,,,,unless you hate to laugh:wtf:
if you do not laugh while watching this movie, check your pulse, you may already be dead.:wtf:
8- WH- Yes, have Mr Hound pick it up. I am only aware of 1 size. 34oz. Mine was 50 bones, but they were advertising an introductory discount price at my place. supposed suggested retail price is 60. so, dont be surprised by that for the size. as Opie said, it's expensive, but may indeed turn out to be more of a "worthy investment" rather than an "expense".
9- Dutchmaster does recomend you do not use other additives while using LL, unless its their "Gold" product line.
Now, my sales and marketing brain tells me this is to ensure and build brand loyaty. The techie in me, wonders if they mean "no other foliar products"?
Personally, I will continue to use Fox Farms Big Bloom in my watering nutes for my soil use, unless I see a disaster begin to unfold.
as Opie said go to the dutchmaster site for more info, they have much posted, I was glued to my monitor thru 2 cups of coffee....big cups:wtf:
holy canoli, that was the longest post i have ever composed here.:wtf:
I think it took about an hour with all the doubling back to each post and post-editting (i know there are still some spelling errors, if you find them, good! at least u didnt waste all those years in school :wtf:) ok, that was extreem sarcasm, but, im overdue to smoke too,LOL ;)
I really hope someone finds all this babbling useful.
I must now blaze:smokin:
Rock.
Wow, thanks for all that info and for going into more detail.
I just put it out there for alls yous to look at. I assume people will use common sense, read directions, and start low and slow, that is the temp oh.
About number 9 above, I use LL with Fox Farm's 3 part bloom enhancers (Beastie Blooms, etc.). I also foliar feed with Spray N Grow. Two LL, one SnG, Two LL, one SnG, and so on, about every other day, except I've missed the last 3 days. I've noticed no problems yet, except a slight indication of nute burn, which I believe was caused by me raising my PPM from 1400 to 1550 (overshot a little), or a combination of that and a bunch of foliar feeding. No big, they look great except for the yellowing toward the bottoms which was going on before, a little chlorosis.. OK fine, they don't look great.
as promised.
Behold: Liquid Light.
these are the before pix.
1st one is Galina, early in week 4 flwr.
2nd pic is the veg cabinet. the 3 larger ones are early week 6 veg.
the sprouts in tthe cups are 1 week.
And holy cow. I looked at that picture, and your's sure stood up more than mine. I wonder why. Your fan leaves are bigger, could that have something to do with it? Probably not I guess.
I guess we're posting at the same time. I meant the first picture in that link you posted.
tapping my foot, waiting patiently...
these are the after shots,,,,,48 hrs later.
according to DM, we should see a difference within 48 hrs.
keep in mind: I have been poking the leaves and hookin branches on Galina's cage to keep her below the 15 inch light threshold recomended by DM
IMHO- the lil ones are showing a bit of a jump.
Galina has definately grown in the last 2 days, but i think the veg cab is where the party is.
one other thing, i did swap positions with the veggers, but i think you can see whats happening.
pic 1 and 2 are shots of Galina
pics 3,4,5 are the veggers, with closeups of the 2 biggest.
and, yes, i did remove the P-scrog from the vegger.
its overkill at this time, i finally realized.:wtf:
i will re-mount when the time is right.
ok, what do YOU all think?
wizeass:wtf::DQuote:
Originally Posted by Opie Yutts
CRAP!, i just realized Galina is turned to a different position in before and after shots.
i thought i had it right, guess not.
for perspective, keep in mind there are flowers on 3 corners, but NOT on the 4th.
ill have to snap another tomorow, its already bedtime for her;)
if you look at Pic 1 (after) in your mind, u need to turn her cage clockwise 90 degrees
my guess is the fact that i lowewred the lights same day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Yutts
and like a dope, i lowered them below the 15 inch minimum as stated by DM.
Galina recovered as you can see, and they did poke up today after application #2, but not nearly as severe.
carry on:cool:
holy f'n crap, i was re-reading this for the 3rd time, and the tempo just hit me. I actually needed to read it 3 times, before i "got it":wtf:Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Yutts
you're whacked man, Nice! :S2:
hey Opie, is this gonna become the goto thread for LL?
I wasn't sure how many people would get that. Congratulations on being one of them.
And I hope this is the go to thread for Liquid Light. If not there needs to be one somewhere. The problem is if people are searching titles only, this thread doesn't have a good title for finding it. Maybe a mod could change the thread to something more informative like "Foliar Feeding & Liquid Light, Miracle Food or Hoax?"
Are there any mods in the cultivation section anymore? Or is it a free for all now?
Opie,
i would reach out for Stinkyattic, she has addy in her signature.:thumbsup:
ok, here's 2 shots with proper orientation for a proper visual comparison.
i still think the veggers react more substantially tho.
these pix r approx 60 hrs after 1st application, 24 hrs from 2nd.
ok, more input.
been spraying LL every other day for last week.
yesterday as a experiment, i lowered the HPS back to the level it was at when i freaked out.
sprayed LL again with the HPS slung low.
so far, very lil physical effects.
hypothesis-
i believe the initial 'shock' of using a hi-octane product like LL was more of a factor than my HPS height distance.
kinda like the difference from the 1st time u tried a 'shot' of whiskey. but a year later u can do 6 in a night:cool:
more to come:thumbsup:
LL update w/ pix
ok, so, been using LL for past 7 days = 4 applications, including 6 hrs ago.
i do believe we have positive effects.
u tell me???
1st pic, Galina
2nd pic, 1 Galina flwr closeup
3rd pic, P-Scrog Mystery Red (topped once)
4th pic, Mystery Red #2 la naturale (topped once)
and the light is still at the lower height of 13-14 inches off Galina, couple more inches for the Reds,,,which are shorter of course.
They're looking good to me. I'd say LL = :thumbsup:. And I agree that it wasn't your light causing any problems. I don't think there were any problems. I think you just had never seen anything like it before and freaked out. I probably would have freaked too if the hydro guy had not told me before hand what happens. (Even though I didn't quite believe him, sorry for doubting you hydro guy.)
Be sure to exercise caution when foliar feeding during flowering, especially in high humidity. If a bud grows around some moisture, boom, you've got bud rot. A different hydro guy told me to only foliar feed during the first week of flowering, or until some flowers start to show up. The directions say it's OK through the 4th week of flowering. I think under conditions of low humidity you could maybe even do it in weeks 5 or 6. Heck, it rains on outdoor buds and they do OK, usually.
Ya i started using LL and i think it does a difference do you guys use the penetrator aswell!!
Galina started her 5th week sunday, and YES, using Penetrator as well.
its very dry here, and will maybe give her 1 more blast this week.
Looks like I might have to check this stuff out. Great thread. I had been using VHO to help get mine to stretch because they are so dense.
Do you always have to leave your light 15" or is that just durning the application and dry time?
And How many ML of LL and Pen to a Liter!!
excellent thread, big thanks to the two experimenters! is this foliar stuff just for flowering or can you use it during veg? :D
Denial
ok, i'm going to try to pop in some quick answers here since I am very active in this experiment, Move over Opie, I'm takin the wheel for a couple blocks:D
first off, i have a detailed tech write up in post # 43 of this thread on page 2.lets not get too lazy, scroll back boys;)
yes, we are using Penetrator. and it is STRONGLY recomended u do. It is a highly effective wetting agent, helps uniform absorbtion and u will likely burn the leaves without it as DM recomends spraying while under the lights.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToKAlot
the 15 inch mark is DM's minimum limit from the light to avoid burn while using LL. I did read somewhere that they recomend approx 24 inch during your spraying/drying time.Quote:
Originally Posted by fosomker
dosage frequency and levels. Recommended to be twice per week, but DM does go further to say an "aggressive" grower could spray every 2 days, .Quote:
Originally Posted by ToKAlot
Recommended dosage levels are 60ml/4 tbsp LL per 1 liter/qt of final spray solution. Spray til runoff. They also say you can store it mixed in solution for a week.
I simply used clean water as my spray solution.
BTW- Penetrator dosage level is the same. I make up 1 cup water/1 tbsp LL/1 tbsp Penetrator.
1st, yes, use in veg and up to the 4th wk of flwr according to DM, u may wish to evaluate factors like ur humidity levels and flowr density to determine how long into flwr u want to try. always avoid a mold/budrot scenario, ur mileage may vary:DQuote:
Originally Posted by denial102
IMHO i think the boost they received was more substantial in veg. However, i would not recomend using before the 2nd node. I shot some babies early and the main single leafs got all twisty and have stayed that way, to me this is proof that the LL amplified my veg-cfl's so much that i ran on the borderline of burn-damage, i'll get a pic up to show what i mean.
ok, that should cover most of u for now.
ok Opie, u can drive again:D
I have been folier feeding seaweed with a paint sprayer for some time now. It adds BIG Time to the yield![attachment=o176393]
hey Fred.
how do u control the power coming out of that airless gun?
from my experience, usually u reqr at least 1000 psi to atomize properly. IMO this will created a powerful/forceful mist that can certainly knock those lil guys over in about a second.
additionally, your overspray must be going everywhere and creating a high moisture level in the air of the area which would in turn cause the mist to adhere to anything within a 5-10 ft radius. This would include, but not limited to, your electrical equipment. I would also assume u are getting moisture droplets forming on all surrounding walls. with that i would worry about things like promoting mold/mildew.
moisture plus electricity is a lousy combination in my book.
as u can tell, i am very familiar with this type of equipment.
any further info u can supply would be helpful, and thanks for playing.:D
hey Opie,
i reached out and think Stinky is gonna clean up the thread and slide it into "advanced",,,,and sticky it.
i'm guessing we may get some kinda notice/announcement, but i am speculating.
we may simply find ourselves teleported to the new section:abduct:
Thank you Opie. I have in fact been popping in on this thread but didn't feel as if this particular crew needed to be babysat. Sorry. I'm spread a bit thin right now with a full time job and trying to get a farm up and running singlehandedly in time for the spring farmers markets (I have less than 3 months)... cut me some slack!Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Yutts
The thread is kind of a mess right now to stick- if someone would like to write a more concise and easy-to-follow tutorial on foliar feeding using this method I will put it in the FAQs, which are due for some serious maintenance pretty soon.
Opie,Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyattic
this is ur thread, so, its ur call.
I can invest some time if u cannot.(i think the clean up would take about an hour or 2 to do it properly)
I dont mind helping the community, but it is your thread, u have right of first refusal.
Stinky, Thanks:thumbsup:
I can clean up the thread but information in deleted posts would be lost. So if one of you wants to go through and do a cut-n-paste of the relevant stuff, that would be good.
Its really not a problem, It comes out very fine mist. If your getting that much over spray you must reduce your pressure. I dont find the over spray a problem. These rooms were built to grow in. all the outlets are up high. I also have dehumidifiers in the rooms so while the humidity goes up when I spray its brought back under control quicklyQuote:
Originally Posted by Rock.Steady
Here is a study explaining the befifits of a folier feed with music just before lights on.
Carlson spent many hours in the University of Minnesota library, studying plant physiology. Struck by the idea that certain sound frequencies might help a plant breathe better and absorb more nutrients, he experimented with various frequencies until, with the help of an audio engineer, he found one range that was consonant with the early morning bird chirping that helps plants open wider their stomata, or mouth-like pores. On every leaf there are thousands of such small openings. Each stoma--less that 1/1000 of inch across--allows oxygen and water to pass out of the leaf, or transpire, while other gases, notably carbon dioxide, move in to be transformed by photosynthesis into sugars. During dry conditions, the stomata close to prevent a wilting plant from drying out completely.
Photomicrographs show plant stomata opening wider to Carlson's frequencies, while a Philips 505 Scanning Electron Microscope shows substantially higher stomata density on a leaf treated with Sonic Bloom; additionally, the individual stomata are more developed and better defined.
As stomata normally imbibe the morning dew, sucking up nutrients in the form of free flowing trace elements, why not, thought Carlson, develop a special organic spray to apply to the leaves along with the sound that induces stomata to open. Even in poor soil, Carlson reasoned, plants could be well nourished with a foliar spray containing the right combination of elements. To develop such an effective nutrient solution took Carlson 15 years of trial and error, experimenting in labs throughout the country, funded by a caring "angel." Carlson needed to find not only what elements serve to make a plant flourish; he needed to find their proper balance. Just the right amount of Nitrogen, Potassium, and Phosphorus is needed, but not the overdose recommended by the chemical companies that swamp the plant to the exclusion of trace elements vital to its health. Too much of any one element can distort or even kill a plant.
To find the proper balance required endless testing with radioactive isotopes and Geiger counters to trace the elements' translocation from leaves to stems to peak to roots. Among the first natural substances used was Gibberilic acid, naturally derived from rice roots, needed by every living plant. Eventually Carlson included sixty-four trace elements derived from natural plant products and from seaweed; he also added chelated amino-acids and growth stimulants, altering the surface tension of the water base to make it more easily absorbed.
ok, these sprouts r roughly 2 weeks old.
2 weeks ago they broke soil n were in solo cups.
1 week ago they moved to their permanent home.
1 week ago, they also got their first shower of LL.
they are under 1 each 26/100w blue spec.cfl's approx 3-6 inches away
about 3-4 days ago i gave them water only shower as i had growing concerns about the twisting leaves.
as u can see, they are moving along, but it appears the damage is permanent.
let this serve as a warning to the strength of Liq. Lite.
IMO, this should only be used after the 2nd solid week of veg.
so, lets do the math.:cool:
assuming a 6-8 week veg, you could apply between 12 to 25 times in a plants veg cycle alone.
we'll say 1 tbsp/15ml per application on a 'group'?
so, what is that? 180-325 ml roughly per grow of "X" number of plants???
and maybe 150-200 ml in veg?
i dunno, i just blazed, i think thats rite.
now, of course the next question would be is it needed that often?
your mileage may vary:smokin:
OK everybody. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I do have a raging headache. I just kinda skimmed the past few posts, and yes I will write up something less garbled as soon as I can. Thanks everybody for stopping by.
And stinky, I wasn't blaming you for anything. I completely understand.
ok, i am returning to add to this thread and the continuing discovery of Liquid Light.
there have been some strange occurances, which i am going to attribute to a combination of factors, one of which, i believe is the inherent strength of LL.
at first, i wasnt sure, but i am now fairly sure that I have a bleaching effect that was caused by LL, BUT only on one strain.
please observe these pics.
there are a total 4 plants in the veg bunker who have all shared the same exact age and conditions- soil, water, lite, air, nutes, LL.
3 blue russians
1 blueberry-or-mango kush
wait, i have more pics and details, i will need 2 or 3 posts.......
to continue,,,
age end of week 4 veg
i started LL back in week 2 and early 3.
1 BR had a slight bleaching late week 3.
the BB-or-MngK has no bleaching, which i find odd, unless its some hearty trait of the strain?
i used the LL again early this week, and now all the new-young sprouts are bleached this bright green color.
they have plenty of strength and texture, but this flourescent color.:wtf:
now, there is one other weird possibility.
i may have had it mixed n sitting too long???
ok, one more post, 2 group shots n a few more comments,......
ok, a few last thoughts n observations.
the first time the bleaching occured, it did actually seem to 'heal' and green-up again mostly, after the bleaching, which i understand doesnt usually happen< we'll see on this.
also, its very possible that for 'sprouts' as they may be somewhat fragile when young, cannot all take the strength of this stuff.
I used it near directions-strength.
i also used the penetrator, and just regular water to thin it per instructions.
ok, discuss,,,,:pimp: