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first i woud like to point out it is my constitunional right to own a gun.
next why do we have this right? well that was put there by our founding fathers to 1. let the citizens of this country defend themselves against occupying force and 2. so that if this contry was to get so far outa hand as to becom a dictatorship that we as a people can rise up and overthrow our goverment.
basicaly it made every citezen responsible for defendig their rights.
Maybe you'd be right if it would actually limit violence.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
I'll ask the question again and then I'm done replying.
How hard is it to buy marijuana? It's illegal...
You can throw away your civil liberties if you want, but don't take us down with you. When your defenseless children, grandchildren, etc... are oppressed by the government and victimized by criminals, then they can thank you.
I wrote this earlier and I think it shows that guns in the household are not a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailhead
~ A 2003 study in the US showed that having a gun in the home increases the risk of someone in the household being murdered by 41 percent. (Homicide and suicide risks associated with firearms in the home: a national case-control study)
Considering the massive amount of gun violence clearly people aren't afraid to defend themselves and lessening gun laws would only further our decline into a sort of civil war. We just shouldn't have so many gun related deaths each year :(
When so many citizens are being killed because people are exercising their constitutional rights, something is seriously fucked up :wtf:Quote:
Originally Posted by yokinazu
It's actually not that hard to buy marijuana. Buts guns and weed are two totally different things, and the government recognizes that (At least my government recognizes that). So if a country was to attempt it they would need to put forth more effort than is being devoted to eliminating marijuana. But the payoff would be worth it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by meatw4d
Oh, and when your gun goes off when your kids are playing with it, they can thank you.
my kid has been taught gun safty and we both know that you dont store a loaded gun. my kid knows better than toplay with HER OWN GUN much less daddys. my 12 year old daughter has enough common sense to know what a gun is for and what it is capable of. like i said before we need to educate kids. ever notice that its the inner citie kids runin around shootin each other. and us hill williams that use a gun as a tool dont seem to be doin the dive bys. maybe its because we were taught gun safty and how to shoot from a very early age.
now you will more than likly say well kids are goin to try to act cool and show off the gun for their freinds or somthing of that nature. well the answer to that is my gun safe.
and if we take away the 2nd ammendment why not the 4th or the 5th hell for that matter just burn the whole constitution.
People can't grow guns...Quote:
Originally Posted by meatw4d
if all the guns were banned what would the sheep and cattle ranchers do when coyotes come and start killing all of their lambs and calves? run otu there and try to knife the thing? guns are useful, people just need to be educated.
Again, murder is, and should always, be illegal. The problem with America's violence is not that we have too many guns, but that our laws are too weak on violent offenders. We should blame the shooter, not the gun itself. It does us no good to ignore the true cause of crimes if we take the blame off of the person that caused that crime. If we actually had tough laws to prosecute and convict violent offenders, we would not have so many gun related deaths per year.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
Murder is not a constitutional right, most violence involving guns is not dealing with issues of self defense or citizens defending their rights. The problem is lack of justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
You are under the assumption that anyone with a gun is stupid, if you are dumb enough to keep a gun in a house with children without it being locked up separately from the ammo, then you shouldn't have kids. The problem here is not the gun itself, but the absence of common sense from the parent, this is just taking blame off who is at fault, the parents. Most of your arguments seem to put the blame on the gun rather than the individual operating the gun. A gun can be a dangerous weapon, but so can a car, knife, rope, bat, etc. You can't stop crime if you don't look at the root cause, and the root cause is not the weapon but the motive. Find the motive, and you can stop crime, but if you stop the weapon, the motive remains and the crime doesn't go away.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
America will never ban all guns, any government action trying to do so would certainly cause a revolution, the idea isn't even worth toying with.
Regarding your comments concerning laws and violent offenders I agree with you. But guns are also apart of that problem. You can't really deal with one without dealing with the other but statistics show that guns increase the risk of violence. That can't be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailhead
My comment about guns going off when children are playing with them was directed at meatw4d who said the following: "When your defenseless children, grandchildren, etc... are oppressed by the government and victimized by criminals, then they can thank you." It wasn't meant as a general statement about gun safety and children.
And banning guns is an idea worth toying with when they are directly involved with so much violence. Anything that is that large a part of American deaths each year should be examined and possibly banned.
Oh, and I don't buy the excuse that people have guns in their possession to protect themselves from "terrorists". How many terrorists have been captured or killed in America because of the guns citizens own?
I know I said I wouldn't reply, but I couldn't help it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
Ban driving!!
:beatdeadhorse:
everyone should have the right to own any type of gun
its all about GUN RESPECT
PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE
rule#1 dont ever point a gun at any living thing unless you plan to use it
if people were to respect that rule less people would get hurt
guns are for lookin pretty hunt sport and self defense
another thing is if guns are illegal they will still be on the black market and they will still be around, but just a good family house hold wont beable to defend themselfs, what are they supposed to do call 911 and wait 10 minutes, tell the robbers to wait 10 minutes to start shooting til the cops get their with equal ammunition
Guns do increase the risk of violence, and if more responsible people owned guns they would be shooting the criminals that deserve it. I have no problem seeing violence against criminals increase ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
Banning guns is against the US constitution, it will never happen without a revolution which would result in far more violence than giving guns to every citizen would. Trust me, I am an American, and I know the American mentality. There is a good reason we have that saying "If you want my gun, you will have to take it off my cold, dead body." Giving up our guns would be giving up on a core American right, it just won't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
Exactly, it is illegal to have firearms on airplanes. However, if the crew on the airlines were armed in the rare event of a hijacking, they could have defended themselves, as well as their hijackers targets. 9/11 could have been prevented if the crew was allowed to have a system of self defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
But the primary reason people should own guns isn't so much because of terrorism, terrorism is extremely rare, but what isn't rare are robberies, freeway shootings, etc. Many of these instances could be settled by an armed citizen, but instead we must rely on an over-stretched police force and weak laws that don't serve justice and therefor don't discourage criminals from their behavior.
This is a prefect example of the bad side of the internet, discredited nonsence gets repeated over and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain
Handguns are 43 times more likely to kill a family
member than a criminal
Fact: Of the 43 deaths reported in this flawed study, 37 (86%) were suicides.
Other deaths involved criminal activity between the family members (drug deals gone bad).
Fact: Of the remaining deaths, the deceased family members include felons, drug dealers, violent spouses committing assault, and other criminals.
Fact: Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator.100 This means you are much more likely to prevent a crime without bloodshed than hurt a family member.
Females are more likely to be murdered when a gun is in the homeQuote:
~ Domestic violence is more likely to be lethal if there is a gun in the home. For women, the risk of being killed if there is a gun in the home is increased by 172 percent. (Firearm Related Deaths: The Impact of Regulatory Reform)
Fact: This ??study? used three non-random counties, a limited (266) case file, began with only cases where a death was involved, and had many other statistical weaknesses.
Fact: This ??study? also notes that the majority (54%) of the homicides were committed without firearms.
Fact: This ??study? concluded that ??household use of illicit drugs and prior domestic violence increase the risk of homicide.?
You are more likely to be injured or killed using a gun for self-defense
Fact: You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:
Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%
Guns are not effective in preventing crime against women
Fact: Of the 2,500,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% (192,500) are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.
Fact: When a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of rape attacks are completed,compared to 32% when unarmed.
Fact: The probability of serious injury from an attack is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with a gun. Men also benefit from using a gun, but the benefits are smaller at 1.4 times more likely to receive a serious injury.
Fact: 28.5% of women have a gun in the house.
Fact: 41.7% of women either own or have rapid access to guns.
Fact: In 1966, the city of Orlando responded to a wave of sexual assaults by offering firearms training classes to women. Rapes dropped by nearly 90% the following year.
I just want to add that the reason why our right to bear arms is so important is that it keeps the government from getting to big and controlling. When every citizen is armed, the government fears the people, and that is the way it was meant to be, not the people afraid of the government.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Food for thought;
**In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953,
about
20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated. **
**------------------------------**
**In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5
million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated. **
**------------------------------**
**Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of
13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were
rounded up and exterminated. **
**------------------------------**
**China** established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated **
**------------------------------**
**Guatemala** established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981,
100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated. **
**------------------------------**
**Uganda** established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
exterminated. **
**------------------------------**
**Cambodia** established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one
million educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up
and exterminated **
**-----------------------------**
**Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century
because of gun control: 56 million. **
**------------------------------**
**It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by
new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their
own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500
million dollars. The first year results are now in: **
**List of 7 items: **
**Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent **
**Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent **
**Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)! **
**In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300
percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns! **
**While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in
armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the
past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is
unarmed **
**There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of
the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was
expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The
Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it. **
**You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians
disseminating this information. **
**Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes,
gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. **
**Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late! **
**The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind
them of this history lesson. **
**With guns, we are 'citizens'. **
**Without them, we are 'subjects'. **
**During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they
knew most Americans were ARMED! **
^Excellent post! By the way, I don't own any guns, (yet), but my friend has a decent little collection. I always joke with him that I'm going to his house when China invades us lol
I'm really surprised by what a vast majority supports allowing assault weapons. Would anybody like to enlighten me as to why you feel they're necessary? Assault weapons are generally automatic right?
I just don't understand it. Having Ak's available, you could mow down 30 people with ease and take on a whole group of cops. I would think handguns, shotguns, and rifles are more than sufficient for defense.
Handguns, shotguns, and rifles are for sport.........
Assault weapons are weapons of war..... they are best left to law enforcement and military
ITS NOT ABOUT THE OUTLAWS HAVING GUNS IF THEIR IS A GUN BAN
the problem is you take away a citizens guns, now that citizen must fully rely on the government for their protoection. If the government want to force you to do something, they can cause the citizens dont have guns. Why do you people just say "America nope we will never be fascist state, cause its America. Its happened before, many democracies have become fascist regimes and its always done through laws, executive orders, and presidential directives. Everything hitler did to obtain power was legal. Dont take your freedom for granted. Everyone should have guns. Our democracy is a system of checks and balances and an armed citizenry is that check on government and according to HR 1955 i could be considered a terrorist for that statement.
Gun Control doesn't work. Drugs are illegal, yet people continue to use them. What people fail to grasp is psychopathic serial killers who shoot women shopping in malls don't abide by gun laws. Hell, Virginia Tech was a "gun free zone". Hence the reason he killed 20 or so people with a 9MM.
In todays world it is not only a right for responsible trained citizens to own a firearm and get a concealed carry, it is becoming a responsibility. A defenseless public is not a safe one.
Statistics in the United States show that criminals are more likely to rob/rape you/murder you if you aren't armed. On top of that, Twice as many children are killed playing football in school than are murdered by guns.
Lastly, over 56 million people have been murdered by their own governments in the 20th century.
Also, I think we've all read the horror stories of holocaust victims hiding defenseless in dumpsters and attics, only to be escorted to deathcamps by the nazis.
I voted other, I'll explain, there probably more guns in this country than people, you will never confiscate all of them, the overwhelming majority of gun owners never break the law or ever use a gun against another human being or animal for that matter, most people own a gun for home protection, hunting, shooting sports, or are collectors. Although I no longer hunt, we are part of the eco-system, predators if you will and serve to thin the population of animals which otherwise mother nature will thin in a much more cruel way than a well aimed shot. People that do have guns should be educated on safety, how the weapon works, what it is capable of, etc. This is not to say everyone should be allowed gun ownership, but the huge number of gun owners are responsible law abiding citizens. One of Hitler's tactics was to outlaw personal gun ownership. I will state that I used my GI Bill to go to gunsmithing school so maybe I am biased.:)
Firing a gun in a pressurised plane would be insanity , hit a window or put a hole in the fuselage and the plane is going down. You also have the problem of a hijacker relieving a member of the crew of thier firearm and using it against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailhead
If you believe that then you are very naive , your goverment does not fear you in the least and if there was an uprising you can bet your bottom dollar that they would stamp on it just like them there Yankees did when the south decided they wanted freedom from the north.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nailhead
If guns weren't so freely available then perhaps the US would see less school massacres and accidental deaths.
More guns means it's easier for the retards to get hold of them.
Wow I have to say I am pretty impressed by the results of the poll so far. Long-barreled guns, handguns, and assault weapons should be allowed has a rather large lead. Don??t forget that in the US we are given this right not only to protect ourselves from criminals but also from government that becomes oppressive and tyrannical. I'm not saying that the US is those things just that our founders understood that one day it could be and it will be that citizens restore freedom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herreic68
Like them citizens in 1861 you mean ?
American Civil War History Timelines Battle Map Pictures
I love guns they are one of the best art forms.
So what are you saying psychocat, that because the government is stronger, citizens shouldn't have any ability to fight back? Uprisings and government overthrows do happen in many countries, many times throughout history. Yet all of a sudden the constitution a minor priority in the US these days; and people wonder why things are going to hell.
As for airplanes, maybe the pilots could be armed with those shooting tazers.
That isn't what I said I was simply pointing out that the last time the American southern states tried forcing the goverment they achieved nothing except lots of dead Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey
The US goverment would come down hard on anyone they even suspected of planning an uprising , a call to arms would be met with Apache attack choppers and other seriously kick arse weaponry.
Im a firm believer in the second amendment, I have the right to protect myself however I choose from a quick reaction handgun I keep close by to a multi purpose S&W 500 that acts as a rifle handgun and shotgun (With a slug) at the same time with a convenient to carry 10" barrel:stoned:.....then again I also think I should be able to put claymores around the perimeter of my property.
Vote Ron Paul if you want to keep your right to carry....screw all them freedom hating bastards that think they know whats best for us.
Guns used in crimes aren't obtained legally in most cases...if someone wants to go on a rampage they can do it with a homemade zip gun....homemade pipe bombs knives scissors whatever, where there is a will there is a way. Education and responsible ownership is the key.
I've read a lot of posts that say assault weapons are weapons of war, which is true, however so were flintlocks, slingshots, rocks etc. any gun including BB guns can kill. Assault rifles are semi auto, to own a full auto AR, you have to have a class3 license which are expensive and difficult to get. A semi can be converted to auto but 1 it is illegal with a stiff penalty, 2 it can be done to any semi including sporting semis. Someone said it best, responsible ownership & education! I don't know how the rest of you feel, but I'm pretty damn tired of losing rights over some nut job or low life thug as the excuse.:wtf:
Its really not that hard to get a class 3 license, its like $250 and some paperwork but it takes like 3-6 months. I think full auto assault rifles are completely unnecessary, but whats even more ridiculous are silencers, theres no reason for a civilian to have a silencer. check out this linkQuote:
Originally Posted by wickerbill
Shooters Depot - NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT (“Class 3” weapons ) LEGALITIES
Guns should never be banned, there is both positive and negative outcomes to banning or letting citizens own guns.
But if we ban weapons, it may slow down crime, but people WILL find a way to get ahold of these weapons. We need guns for self-defense, we need them for hunting, we need them for war. What if we ban guns withen a country and we get invaded by the millions? Then what happens? We're FUCKED!
But there's 100 different prespectives to see it from, this is mine...and i'm sticking with it until the day I die.
Hi Akimbo, my point about the ars was that practically any semi can be converted to auto, I haven't stayed current with licensing laws, but ,having checked out FFL license a few years back as compared to when I got one over 20 yrs. ago it is much more cumbersome with much more red tape, that said, there are collectors ,as you probably know, that collect military weapons exclusively, and they are sticklers about authenticity ie: if it was supposed to have full auto capability they want it, they may never fire the weapon they want it original for historical trueness, and you must admit that the ATF does not make it a walk in the park to get a class 3. The ease or difficulty that is involved in obtaining any firearms license isn't the point, gun ownership is, and what types of guns should be legal is, I content that if someone wants a full auto ,that they need not have an assault rifle, that sporting arms will kill you just as dead and just as fast as an assault rifle so where should the line be drawn? How do you distinguish who will use the gun responsibly and who will not? How much more gov't regs are we willing to bear? The bad guys get the media coverage, but the millions of gun owners who live their lives peacefully don't. When was the last time anyone here was threatened by an assault rifle wielding nut?
Bill I agree with you, in that someone who is gonna use an assault rifle illegally will get it by illegal means. The license might be kinda easy to get but the guns are still extremely expensive and the only people buying them are gun collectors. You should look through that link I put up, its pretty crazy what all you can get. My favorite is the silenced sniper rifle specifically designed to fit into this bag that looks like an ordinary piece of luggage. What possible legal use could that have. Its like smoking tobacco out of your "water pipe";) I'm not anti-gun in the least, just some guns are just pointless and dangerous for civilians to have
IMHO, assault weapons and supressors are designed and manufactured specifically as weapons of war. There was never any thought about these weapons being used for sport. They were designed specifically for the purpose of killing men at war.Quote:
Originally Posted by akimbo1013
OTOH, revolvers, rifles and shotguns are designed for hunting for meat, self defense, and sport shooting.
No matter what the purpose, without proficiency, you might as well use a club.
If you can get past my 2 trained attack dogs then defeat me with my weapons, you can have them!
Bravo Zulu!
Thank you, you just proved my point. The US government doesn't fear the people because they have done a damn good job at taking away our only means of defense against unconstitutional actions. Freedom is not given to us by our government, freedom is natural and the constitution's purpose is not to state what freedoms we are allowed to have, but to restrict the government from taking away the freedoms we are entitled to as human beings.Quote:
Originally Posted by psychocat
The 2nd amendment was not put there because people needed them for hunting, they needed, and wanted, them to keep the government in check. The 2nd amendment is key to keeping this government as a republic, and not a fascist state.
That's an understandable question, and my simple answer is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf_The_Grey
If the cops can have them, so should the citizens.
Most people that own assault weapons do not use them on innocent people, most are probably ex-military members that find a great joy in unloading a clip in a matter of seconds miles away, or shooting a goat with a 50 cal in the Nevada deserts, (I think 50 cals are legal there).
To put it simply, it is recreation for most, but the idea of a country where citizens can arm themselves as well as any police officer keeps a balance to the powers. I firmly believe many of our crimes are the result of our poor justice system, not the absence of gun restriction! If we really want to reduce crime we need to actually punish those that commit crimes, and not slapping them on the wrist with a fine and letting them out early. That is why we have so much crime, it's not because of our guns. Those that abuse their constitutional right should pay, at the very least anybody that kills another should serve a mandatory life sentence, no parole, no getting out early for "good behavior", the sentence should be final and it should stick. If we made criminals pay for their crimes, we would have far less crime, but as it is we have morons sympathizing with criminals blaming the guns, poor education, race, anything but the actual individual who committed the crime. I think everyone can agree we are way too soft on criminals!
dead on, couldnt have said it better myselfQuote:
but as it is we have morons sympathizing with criminals blaming the guns, poor education, race, anything but the actual individual who committed the crime. I think everyone can agree we are way too soft on criminals!
im sick of hearing its not my fault its society's fault. wa wa wa
Quote:
Originally Posted by yokinazu
Guns don't kill people, husbands that come home early do:D
Fear of weapons is a sigh of sexual retardation- Siggy Freud.
I am an avid firearm enthusiast. As for the Virginia Tech massacre, that gun was bought legally and registered, the guy had the reciepts in his backpack.
If you want to kill a bunch of people, there are other means than guns to do so.
Last year the FBI reported that there were over 2 MILLION reported defensive uses of a firearm. Check Fbi.gov. Far more than "offensive" uses.
Israel in 2003 enacted a program in which relative and teachers would carry concealed weapons to deter Palestinian terrorists from targeting their schools after a rash of suicide explosions. Since the program was enacted, NO school children have died while in class.
Switzerland has one of the highest percentages of gun ownership, and all military aged males are required to become proficient with a battle rifle. They also have one of the lowest rates of gun deaths/accidents in the world.
In WW2 Hitler was about to invade Switzerland, but by the time the Swiss heard this, they had already armed every single household with a battle rifle, closed the mountain passes, and told Hitler "Come get us". The reason that Hitler did not invade Switzerland was because his generals convinced him of an "unacceptably high casualty rate"
Also, years after pearl harbor, an American admiral met his enemy in a casual setting postwar. The American admiral asked the Japanese admiral why they did not attack the militarily deficient west coast.
"We dare not invade the west coast of the U.S., because behind every blade of grass, is a battle rifle".
The mass amount of civilian gun ownership would surely deter most from invading us as well.
I believe that the second amendment is extremely valuable not only as a tyrannical government checker, but also as a national security protocol.
Oh yeah and then there is the fact that the police are not obligated to save you from anything.
Only you are responsible for your personal safety. If you choose to allow someone you dont know to take care of your safety for you, then that is your choice.
There are two instances in my life when I drew my firearm at low ready and am thankful for my training with it. Never had to fire.
I will continue to bear arms and be apart of that "militia" aged 17 to 41, which Hamilton defined in his federalist papers.