yea we'll not a single muslim on this planet would even turn their head if I was lying bleeding to death in the street.
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yea we'll not a single muslim on this planet would even turn their head if I was lying bleeding to death in the street.
Prove it to me. Right now. No more talk, I wanna see the evidence!Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Toker
Your kind of demanding ain't ya? What, are you unable to find opposing facts and opinions on your own? I guess you must be. Start your search in the Sudan. See if you can figure out whats been going on there for a long time. We can move on to other things like islams treatment of woman, slaves, and other such things when your done in the Sudan. Try to keep in mind that we are not comparing islams violence to christian violence, only that islam is violent. Just because others have done it does not excuse the violence. If your going to close your eyes and not look for yourself, then you will never see anything for yourself. You will only see what others show you. That seems to be what you want. Let's talk some about that Van gogh guy in Amsterdam. The people that targeted him did it for what reason? Because of what he said about their religion! I'm sure you will say that was just the act of one person, but it wasn't. He was connected to a lot of other people bent on violence. Guess what the connection is? There is a lot of organized violence by muslims, and it seems to start in the church. Islam produces violence. Over all the years it has been around, violence has been it's way. BTW, since your going to be so demanding of me, then I feel I should make a demand of my own. Prove to me right now that islam is not a violent religion? Right now, show me what makes it so you think islam is so peacefull and non-violent. Without talking, prove your peacefull religion really is peacefull! I wanna see your evidence. You have complained that I do not give evidence, where is your evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by F L E S H
Toker
Talking about Sudan................... http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=1093
Peace
your fucking ignorant, how can you label a whole group of people evil cause the actions of a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Toker
the koran has no more violence in it than the old testament, death was the punishment for almost everything in leviticus.
who started the crusades, the holocaust, okc bombing, the inquisision, salem witch trials. christians did, so is it fair for me to label all christians as violent.
LT said he didn't want comparisons of how Christianity is also violent, I guess because it weakens his arguments, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by juggalo420
What I see in the Sudan is a civil war which uses Islam as an excuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Toker
That is the faultiest logic I have seen in a long time. Have you noticed which countries are the ones that harbour terrorist organizations and are generally 'anti-American'? Do you know anything about the history of the Middle-East? Fact is, this kind of violence did not start until the British and the French decided to set up colonies and create states that didn't exist before, like Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. Of course, today they have 'independence', but they aren't really independent at all, and the damage done by colonialism and imperialism will take years to heal. These people are oppressed, both by their own governments and the American government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Toker
Did you know that before the age of Empires in the 18th-19th centuries, Middle-Eastern society was quite tolerant of other people practicing their religion, including Christianity and Judaeism? There were no suicide bombings, no killings, nothing of that sort.
How can you label an entire religion as being violent when throughout its 1,400-year history it has been one of the most tolerant out there? The events of the second half of the 20th century do not change the fact the Islam is NOT violent, but terrorists will use it as a means to co-opt other people to make them believe that their struggle is sanctioned by Allah.
That is my argument. I still don't know what yours is, besides "I say so."
"how can you label a whole group of people evil cause the actions of a few"
I'm not doing that. I am labeling the religion as starting the violence in the people. The people would not be as violent without the religion. Same with christians I would imagine.
"the koran has no more violence in it than the old testament"
Well that's quite a bit, is it not? So by comparing them your saying that the koran does contain violence?
"so is it fair for me to label all christians as violent"
Not really, but it is ok to say that christianity produces violence in humans. Religion in general causes violence. Islam is not the peace as is claimed it is. It is terror, hate, deception and yes, violence!
Toker
"That is my argument. I still don't know what yours is, besides "I say so"
That's it? That is all your argument has? No wonder you think islam is not violent. You had better find out a little more, you seem to be lacking in the info department when it comes to islam. You have no evidence at all, and it looks as if you to are relying on the "I told you so" tactic your blaiming me for. You have not convinced me that islam is not violent with your arguement.
Toker
Goddamn it, Islam is NOT violence! Don't you understand the concpet of using something to get people to support you? Terrorism has NOTHING to do with Islam, except superficially. It's an excuse, a scapegoat, a way to get more people to join their cause. It's the oldest trick int he book, and everybody's done it at one time or another in history.
You know what, you have absolutely no concept of history and cause and effect. If you can't understand the concept of using religion as a rallying cry, as a means to an end, if you can't see beyond the surface of world events, then I'm sad for you, because you will never be able to understand what's REALLY going on anywhere.
Nothing is what it seems to be on the surface, absolutely nothing. You insist on using the logic of a 5-year-old "terrorists are muslims therefore all muslims are violent."
LT, Islam is no more violent that Christianity. Just as you get Christiam extremists, you get Islamic extremists. People use this to get people to do horrible things sometimes, but its not always the fault of the religion. Surely you agree with that?
I'm talking about violence. Islam gives the extremist the motivation to kill in the name of their god. Islam creates violence. Whether it be a few, or a great many makes no difference to me, it still creates violence. In the name of allah no doubt.
Toker
So does Christianity, soccer, and alcohol. Whats your point?
What more do you want? That's more than YOU can give me, because you don't know jack. You still haven't supported your view with any evidence. What I wrote before is not everything that helped me make up my mind, it's just a part. I'm a historian, I look to History for explanations, and it usually works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Toker
Fact is, modern civilization as we know it is deeply indebted to the Islamic cultures of the Middle-East because they preserved the knowledge and philosophy of ancient Greeks and Romans, which were destroyed in the West by fanatical Christian movements that wanted to destroy everything deemed 'non-Christian'.
What's happening today is a direct consequence of colonial rule and American imperialism, and NOTHING to do with religion. If you cn't comprehend that, that's your problem. I'm through wasting my time on this topoc.
I'm an athiest. Religion is nothing but mind control to me no matter what the religions name. If the US goes off to war, does it send everyone? What happens when islam goes off to war, does it send everyone? Creating the illusion of wanting peace while stoking violence is not an unheard of tactic. Religion has been corrupted from it's inseption by man. All the more reason to think Islam is violence prone. Even their prophet Mo was violent.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
Toker
That it is not a peacefull religion as some seem to think it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
Toker
"What more do you want?"
I want to see who gave you your opinion!!!
"You still haven't supported your view with any evidence."
Where is yours?
"I'm a historian, I look to History for explanations, and it usually works."
Another one living in the past. Great!
"What's happening today is a direct consequence of colonial rule and American imperialism, and NOTHING to do with religion."
You could't be more wrong. It has everything to do with religion. Your right, you are wasting your time if you want me to believe islam is totally innocent.
Toker
It has NOTHING to do with religion. Just as the Crusades had very little to do with religion (90% politics), just as the Reformation had almost nothing to do with religion (95% politics, Martin Luther didn't want to give money to the pope in Rome, Henry VIII wanted a freaking divorce), just as the Inquisition had nothing to do with religion (again, politics), just as missionaries in the Americas and Africa had nothing to do with religion (politics, they wanted to make the indigenous populations more subservient to European rule)
You know, you can call me whatever you want, but I take offense to you saying that I live in the past because I'm a historian. Again, you miss the deeper significance and only see what lies on the surface. Don't you understand that by finding out what causes the status quo in the world today, we can help solve it? History is extremely relevant to the present, and I would go so far as to say that you haven't studied much history at, if any, written outsidde the sphere of influence of your government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Toker
Youre a racist too, a fat white racist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Toker
The US military is full of the most inbred backwards hillbillies the world has ever known, i cheer every time one goes home in a bag. One less piece of human garbage. In the america vs islam i am cheering for the muslims. And you opinion means nothing fatso, you said the war would be a calkwalk, you think the americans are seen as liberators. Fuck you just wrote here that america won in iraq. Was it because its not on TV anymore, you think its over? The american military are baby killing cowards, NK would whoop your ass, like you lost every other war you tried to go alone, including iraq. You have no heart, thats the problem. Go get that high school diploma.
krackbaby
Iraw is being occupied by America. Iraqs government have been put in place by the American government, but alot of Iraqi people dont want America there, so they fight back in any way they can, ie, kidnappings, suicide bombings, shootings, etc.
Im not condoning it, because its horrible, but why is a suicide bombing on an American convoy any worse than an American plane bombing a residential complex in Iraq? Christianity and Islam can both be as violent as eachother, it just depends whos holding the strings, if you get what I mean. Man, I hate religion and politics :(
"You know, you can call me whatever you want, but I take offense to you saying that I live in the past because I'm a historian."
Can I? I haven't called you anything yet have I? What ever shall I call you? History is great, but you won't find all your answers in dusty old thought. Some thought needs to be new to keep up with the times. Why would you take offence at me saying you live in the past? Seems to me that your a little sensitive in some areas.
"It has NOTHING to do with religion."
It has EVERYTHING to do with religion. You claim I only see what's on the surface, and then you say things like the crusades had almost nothing to do with religion. You may need to study up on that some more.
"I would go so far as to say that you haven't studied much history at, if any, written outsidde the sphere of influence of your government."
You know I know several people from Canada and they all seem to have the same "I am smarter then you" thing going for them. What makes you so much more of a historian then me? Do you have any idea what I have studied? No, you do not. Yet here you are making your claims anyway. Do you do that when your figuring out your opinion on everything, or is that reserved for just me.
You seem to think religion is completely free of any violence. Your wrong man. Religion is the root cause of a lot of the worlds violence past and present. I'm sorry you can't see it. I guess it is easier to blaim the US for it. I suggest you reread some of the history of the middle east if you truely believe the violence there started because of US imperialism. What is so hard about seeing the violence in religion for you? Is it really so far fetched for me to think that religions cause violence? When a man kills in the name of his god, what has influenced that person to kill? Religion has. Islam is no different then christianity as you have said many times. They are both violent by nature. Islam, at this point in time, is using terror for it's own reasons. It's not just one or two lone wolfs out there causing problems as you would like me to believe. It is a world wide network of terror and violence, with islam being the guiding hand. So when the muslim is cutting the head off a contractor, it's not really religious violence to yell god is great while chopping, it's American imperialism? I see! Thanks for the history lesson oh wise and all knowing one. What will you treat me too next, a run down of how hitler didn't really kill jews? Maybe a thrilling story of how Japan never really attacked pearl harbor?
Toker
Is that why they are attacking their own people on a daily basis? It is not the US that the terrorist hate, it is the thought of their religion losing power that is their diving concern. The sunni have been in power for a long time, and they don't want to give it up. Any way they can is a lame arguement. Them killing and terrorizing their own is not to remove the US, but to terrorize the people of Iraq. Religion, politics, and violence are having a fuck fest over there. I wonder what the offspring will look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
Toker
"It has EVERYTHING to do with religion. You claim I only see what's on the surface, and then you say things like the crusades had almost nothing to do with religion. You may need to study up on that some more. "
I'm sorry, but I have to say this. You goddamn idiot, find me a single book written by a scholar for academia that don't say the same thing I do about the Crusades. I dare you.
You are so goddamn arrogant, you impersonate what people dislike about Americans. You think you are so superior, that only you have the philosophical right to start a war, that you have the only valid reason to invade other countries.
"What makes you so much more of a historian then me?"
Five years of studying History at a major Canadian institution. I don't care what you studied, cause apparently it didn't do much. Your best argument against me is constantly repeating that I don't know what I'm talking, I'm lacking in the knowledge department, I should read up on my history. Yet you're not able to support anything you say except with 'that's the way it is because I say so'. Are you a lawyer?
I know I said this before, but I'm outta here for real this time, as intelligent as you might be, you still argue like a 5 year old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
your a young ass piece of shit for even saying that
u are condoning it
fuck you for every troop in danger
u need a soul.
You didnt answer the questionQuote:
Originally Posted by NowhereMan
Why is a suicide bombing on an American convoy any worse than an American plane bombing a residential complex in Iraq?
And, for fucks sake, im not condoning it at all. BUT, I do think that the American troops are just as bad as these 'insergants' that they are fighting. They use suicide bombers, and America uses napalm. Whats the difference? Theyre both just as fucking disgusting as eachother. Nobody should be killing anybody, and killing for a cause is still killing. Anybody that kills anybody is wrong in my eyes
Goddam nationalists.
Just because you come from America doesnt mean that you should stand by your troops when theyre doing wrong, or your president when he is doing wrong.
America should never have gone in to Iraq. So when you blame these people for the death of American troops, consider the fact that if they had never entered Iraq none of them would be dead, and neither would thousands of Iraqis, innocent or otherwise.
The point I was trying to make in my last post was what I said earlier:
Anybody that kills anybody is wrong. It doesnt matter what country you come from or what reason you have for doing it, you still should never kill anybody. Soldiers are murderers. Period. And I dont care if I offend anybody by saying that, because im offended by the blatant disregard for human life that so many of you show. Later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
the difference is
we dont say hey look there is a bus full of kids,shoot it
dum ass
and the ones there (insurgents) aint but hired guns by osama's ass and a recriuts of a religion being used wrongly
they want you dead,deny it it till they cut ya throat
and they are there becuase its the job of the troops to go die and kill where ever the goverment says ,i dont see where you support them ,you act like they should just quit" say no man i wont do it,?
and your free lil punk ass rides the ride for free so shut the fuck up before ya really piss somebody off
you dont know shit about anything,your "wet behind the ears"
i dont got no us flag sticking out my ass ,i just know iraq is so in need of a change,and its costing us lives,
and to those who say what about this place and that place
well hell now ya want us to go invade other places for REASONS you think
need it?
this thread is a downer
Quote:
Iraw is being occupied by America. Iraqs government have been put in place by the American government, but alot of Iraqi people dont want America there, so they fight back in any way they can, ie, kidnappings, suicide bombings, shootings, etc.
Im not condoning it, because its horrible, but why is a suicide bombing on an American convoy any worse than an American plane bombing a residential complex in Iraq? Christianity and Islam can both be as violent as eachother, it just depends whos holding the strings, if you get what I mean. Man, I hate religion and politics
Peace
Wow. You guys sure get pissed off when somebody else has a different opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by NowhereMan
Maybe Iraq is in need of a change. But why the fuck should your corrupt ass be the one to change it? America is in need of a change, too. Hell, the whole world is in need of a fucking change.
"i dont see where you support them"
You're right. There is no way in hell you will EVER find me supporting a war, or supporting troops. NEVER. I find it sickening that ANYBODY can support troops. Theyre people that get paid to kill other people over little bits of land. And theyre supposed to be heroes? Im supposed to look up to them? BULLSHIT! fuck that, and fuck all this nationalism bullshit that you so proudly display, but under the name of 'patriosm'. I'll tell you something for free. Patriosm is just another tactic dreamt up by the government to control people, to make us do what they want. If youre stupid enough to believe in all this patriosm bullshit, then youre probably the type of person that would be sitting in front of your TV, with a beer in one hand, shooting your gun in to the air with the other, and screaming 'Yeeehaaaaw' every time you hear of another apartment block full of Iraqi men, women and children being blown up.
Oh, and thanks herbolic.. at least one person agrees with me lol
Its mad, immagine if some other country invaded yours, u got the soldiers raping your mom and beating your men and your losing family members becuase of the bombings.
What if france had just decided to liberate the us from britain. The uprising has to come from within.
Its no wonder the people dont trust the us military, the only thing a uniform meant to them during sadams dictatorship was fear and now the supposed liberators are acting in the same way....we've all seen the pics.
The usa is just a big fucking company with a president and board of directors calling the shots, its a joke.
Its like a big game of chess and the every day people are the porns and we all know porns are only valuble under certain circumstances and are frequently sacrificed to gain and advantage.
Iraq will be liberated by the US's deffinition of the word and nothing else. The markets will be opended up and be exploited..........fuck it, i cant b bothered..........
Peace
LT- if you think the koran is violent in nature, i suggest you actually read it, and not just nod your head to wat the 700club says about it. i read it, no where it does it sanction the killing of innocent people, they are only suppose to use violence as a last resort, as in war and in some instinces of breaking the law. of course theres different interpretations of it, theres a distorted violent one used by terrorists, and one used by the rest of the worlds 1 billion musslims. do you think 1 billion people are out to get you?
also before you start pointing fingers i suggest you re-read your bible, the old testament is littered with passages of god ordering the genocide of complete nations, death was used for a wide variety of crimes, in the book of revalations in the new testament jesus and the saints appear to be a bunch of sadists getting pleasure from other peoples torments in hell.
"I know I said this before, but I'm outta here for real this time, as intelligent as you might be, you still argue like a 5 year old"
Running away so soon? Awww, don't go man, your arguement ain't so bad that you need to run off just yet. I guess your saying is "if you can't beat em, run away".
"I'm sorry, but I have to say this. You goddamn idiot"
Beaking point! Cool! So now your down to name calling are ya? Who was it that was acting as a 5 year old again? Oh ya, me! LOL! Your hypocray is amazing. Everything you want from me your unwilling to do yourself, and most every label you try to pin on me is exactly what your doing yourself.
"You are so goddamn arrogant, you impersonate what people dislike about Americans."
Ahhhhh, the truth comes out again. As with a lot of people, your envy of the US is causing you to feel inferior, and that in turn is causing the anger and need you seem to have to bash the US, that we see here today.
"find me a single book written by a scholar for academia that don't say the same thing I do about the Crusades. I dare you."
Why the rules? Why does it have to be from "a scholar for academia"? A single book? But what if I formed my opinion by reading a lot of stuff, from a lot of sources, over a long piriod of time? I have a better idear, why don't you show me a few books that do say what you have claimed. It should be an easy thing for you to do since all academic's that have wrote books on the subjet think the same as you do. If your the adult your claiming to be while stomping off in a hissy fit, you will do what it is you want me to do first. You know, lead by example. Of course if your still having a hissy fit, you won't even reply I will be forced to leave it at that. BTW, if your really through this time, why did you ask me questions?
"You think you are so superior"
Have a look at yourself man, your trying despretely to prove your better then me.
"You are so goddamn arrogant, that only you have the philosophical right to start a war, that you have the only valid reason to invade other countries."
Where did that come from? If you say stuff about me that I know is untrue, what is it your doing? Do you really think you know what I think? Why would you say that I think something like that? What evidence do you have that would cause you to say that I think the US is the only one with a right to start wars? If you have to resort to this type of thing to feel superior, then it is as I said before, you do it because you feel inferior.
"Five years of studying History at a major Canadian institution."
Well there ya go! Five years of brainwashing. I like the way you call it what it truely is. It's an institution alright. Did you ever stop and wonder if it might be you that has had his mind controled?
"I don't care what you studied, cause apparently it didn't do much."
Well, ok then! I guess you win the "I studied more then you did" thing by default, as you have already made up your mind without evidence of anything to back up your opinion. You do that quite a bit. It makes me wonder if your able to draw any conclusions on your own that are actually correct.
"Are you a lawyer?"
Antique/junk dealer.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.themodernreligion.com/wom...4-shafaat.html
Really man, if ya can't find your own "evidence" out there from both sides of the issue, then your just plain not looking for it. Find out for yourself man, don't continue to let others "change" your mind. Change it for yourself.
Toker
Need I remind you of what started this thread? You guys attacked Torog because he thinks different then you do. Nice try at turning it around, but I ain't buying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
Toker
"also before you start pointing fingers i suggest you re-read your bible"
I suggest you re-read this thread before you spout your pre programed BS. It is not my bible, and your own words say what I have been saying the whole time. Islam creates violence. I guess for you every last muslim has to be violent in order to say that islam is violent. It's an all or nothing world out there ain't it?
Toker
your a ignorant selfish assQuote:
Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR
you wouldnt support anything that may risk your precious lil ass
you wouldnt be able to say a dam thing about a dam thing if not for those that serve the nation
you want iraq better
get your ass over there and fix it
oh thats right you probly go to college on some grant money
or gotta go ask mommy if its ok,
nobody celebrates no people getting blew up with no beer and gun shooting in the air, thats racist shit agianst southerners but i guess since you dont say nigger and spik and camel jockey its cool
well its not ,your the fucking reason this nation can be so bad people like you who expect others to die for your rights to be a big mouth
yehaaw suck a turd ya punk
ya pissing me the fuck off
sissy ass wouldnt fight for anything
you would let ya grany get raped and say oh,,,,,its ok granny he didnt mean it he just sick and well we gotta except it
grow a set of balls when you ever get a soul
you pompus ass ,your so much better than me and anyone here
used to think you was just dum ass kid
now i can see your a racist towards all americans especially non city dwellers
fuk it tellin ya this is a wiaste
Howdy and Good mornin,LT,Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Toker
Yeah..it's the same old ,same old..I'm a traditional values feller,in a sea full of amoral relativists...lol. In the brave new world of liberalism-there ain't no room for dinosuars like me,I should just git with the 'program'-and stop making waves...NOT !!
I believe that Delta9 said that if one is lying bloody and dying in the street-that a muslim would not sop to help-that's actually true..one of the our rules was-when I was in Saudi,was that even if we saw a traffic accident happen in front of us,and folks were injured-that we must not help them-because in Islam,the plight of the victims-is to be left up to Allah's Will..if we interferred with Allah's Will-then we could be thrown into jail.
Christians ain't strapping on bomb belts and blowing up school buses full of children..nor are we cutting people's heads off-either..yet these fellers claim with a straight face-that Christianity is no more or less-violent than Islam--HOGWASH !! The facts speak for themselves..in the Sudan and elsewhere-Christians are buying folks out of slavery-Islam is taking Christian slaves..the fact is-is that Islam is responsible for almost evry conflict taking place in the world at this time.
Well..I think it's time to wake and bake-I'll probably go into chat for a bit..Have a good one...Torog :D
If your not republican your liberal.............bullshit, they are like coke and pepsi. Skull and bones...............does that mean anything to anyone?Quote:
Yeah..it's the same old ,same old..
Some people just wanna see thru the bullshit, juggalo said that he's read both the bible and koran...........
Peace
brave new world...funny you mention that. kind of like bush's forced psychological testing of everything that already passed your congress? that's a hallmark of a dictatorship...did you hear about the new freedom initiative on fox news torog? does it even exist? yes, it does, but i'm willing to bet you have no clue what it is. ignorance is strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torog
and you rely on this let/right paradigm, why don't you check voting records torog? it's democrats that are voting for all o bush's big tyrannical government policies, and most of those who vote against bush in our congress, are republicans...
it's not a left/right issue. why do you deny the destruction of the bill of rights and constitution? we're turning into iraq.
Thank god there's other people who make sense in here....Quote:
Originally Posted by pisshead
Just a warning Pisshead, don't argue with LT, you can't win :D
I also heard about the forced psychological testing. That is one of the scariest things I have ever heard. Believe me, they will prescribe drugs to anyone who's not how the government would like them to be. The US will become a nation of brainwashed government puppets, much like Torog, LT and NowhereMan...
So much for your freedom, soon, you won't even have the freedom to think on your own, without your head being filled with chemicals. Congratulations, 4 more years.
many a time we've 'argued' on the other politics board here. it mainly consists of him saying no one can know anything for sure, i'm wrong, everything i say is bullshit, blah blah blah...history doesn't even matter, even when it's repeating to a T, yadda yadda yadda...no facts or information. he has no discernment and doesn't know how to "read" news, even mainstream, which doesn't lie all the time, they spin.Quote:
Originally Posted by F L E S H
they'll call torture 'abuse' and say it's not that bad, even while describing the horrible acts of 'abuse'. well i'm here to say torture is bad.
history is full of political conspiracies. it's full of people wanting more and more and more power and control, nothing is ever enough. but it can't be happening today. let's just let the giant electronic control and tracking and taxing grid be placed all around us, because we can trust the loving government. this world empire will be a lot different from those in the past, it'll be even more difficult for it to fall if we allow it them to further wall themselves off from the public and horde the suppressed technology.
it's also important to note that this would be going on regardless of which puppet is in office. kerry voted for the war and the patriot act and the police state and clinton started a lot of the programs that bush is continuing. there has been bascially one plan in this country for a long time, for a one world government. 20 years ago you were nuts to even insinuate that idea, now it's all over the news, but i'm still weird for talking about it...