How were you created?

1. So far as we are able to determine, every highly complex object with intricate moving parts is a product of intelligent design. (The only such objects whose ultimute origin we are sure about are artifacts designed by people.)

2. The universe is a highly complex object with intricate moving parts. (from observation)

Therefore,

3. Probably, the universe is a product of intelligent design. (from steps 1 and 2)

4. No one could design a universe but God (its a big job)

Therefore,

5.Probably, there is a God. (from steps 3 and 4)

The visible order of the universe proclaims a supreme intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

1. So far as we are able to determine, every highly complex object with intricate moving parts is a product of intelligent design. (The only such objects whose ultimute origin we are sure about are artifacts designed by people.)

2. The universe is a highly complex object with intricate moving parts. (from observation)

Therefore,

3. Probably, the universe is a product of intelligent design. (from steps 1 and 2)

4. No one could design a universe but God (its a big job)

Therefore,

5.Probably, there is a God. (from steps 3 and 4)

The visible order of the universe proclaims a supreme intelligence.

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Your logic train started at the station, and then crashed horrifically the second it left.

What if everything we see here, right now, was created by intelligent aliens? That would explain the intelligent design, and derail a portion of your arguement.

Essentially, it all comes back to, how did God come to be?

Its has been stated by some here, that there is no way that everything we see in life happened by random, its too complex, and there is too much of it to have just happened by chance. But then, the only being that would be able to create such a thing, well... we dont have to explain that one. We can just say it existed, with no explaination of what created it. Something infinitely more complex then everything we have seen or ever will see, by the definition you and others have given, doesnt need an explaination on how it was created... do you see the problem with the logic there?

What/Who created God? If everything we see here is intelligent design, and required an omnipotent omniprescent being to create it, what created such a being?

And personally, I think that believing in something because if you are right you get rewarded is a bunch of bullshit, to put it lightly. That goes against EVERYTHING that chrisitanity and other religions teach. Its not do good in your life for the chance of infinite candy, its do good for no other reason then to do good, and then you will get candy.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

The existence of God is intelligible not because it was caused by anything or anyone, but because it flows from his essence. God cannot fail to exist. God exists necessarily. It is God's essential nature to exist. And in this regard, God is very different from anything in the universe. God's existence logically follows from God's essence.

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i believe the big bang theory

which means we evolved from a pool of bacteria and evolved over millions of years into smaller mammals and then so on

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

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What created gods essence?

We can play this game forever, but linking gods existance back to god itself doesnt work for this excercise, sorry.

What created WHATEVER it is that you have to explain gods existance?

Saying that he is required, or always existed, just cant work logically with all the conclusions you yourself made earlier about this universe. Something so complex, so amazing on every level, had to have been created by something, right? Well I cant think of anything, by definition, more amazing and complex then God, so what created him, since anything so complex and amazing had to have been created by something?

If god can just exist, why cant this universe just exist?

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Originally Posted by imitator

What created gods essence?

We can play this game forever, but linking gods existance back to god itself doesnt work for this excercise, sorry.

What created WHATEVER it is that you have to explain gods existance?

Saying that he is required, or always existed, just cant work logically with all the conclusions you yourself made earlier about this universe. Something so complex, so amazing on every level, had to have been created by something, right? Well I cant think of anything, by definition, more amazing and complex then God, so what created him, since anything so complex and amazing had to have been created by something?

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Exactly, saying that God is necessary is the same as saying the universe is necessary, or the atom is necessary.

You can play madlibs and make the same argument.

i believe my god created me...of course after my mom and dad did the nasty

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Originally Posted by water

i believe the big bang theory

which means we evolved from a pool of bacteria and evolved over millions of years into smaller mammals and then so on

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1. what started the big bang? what was there before hand?

2. have you read about the big bong yet?

I myself believe that the evidence for God lies primarily in inner personal experiances. It is the heart which experiances God, and not with reason.

1. Every being is either dependent or self-existent.

2. Not every being can be dependent

Thus,

3. There is a self-existent being.

Because of the principal of sufficient reasoning, step 1 rules out ther being anything that is explained by nothing. A dependent being is explained by something else. A self existent being is self explanitory, or necessary.

Step 2 results from this reasoning: If all beings were dependent, then there would be one positive fact--that these beings exist at all--that would have no explanation, and this is ruled out by PSR also; that fact can only be explained by a nondependent being, thus 2 is true.

And step 3 follows from 1 and 2. There is no reason to think that anything in the universe, or the total composed of these things, is self existent, thus there must be a GOd outside the system of dependent being who created them. The universe doesn't exist necessarily, it is not the universe's essence to exist. It's concept does not logically imply its reality in all sets of possible circumstances. And that is different from the concept of God as a greatest possible being.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

1. Every being is either dependent or self-existent.

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Where did you get this from?

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Step 2 results from this reasoning: If all beings were dependent, then there would be one positive fact--that these beings exist at all--that would have no explanation, and this is ruled out by PSR also; that fact can only be explained by a nondependent being, thus 2 is true.

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If a microscopic being comes into existence (chemical reaction maybe), it either eats or dies. Therefore it is entirely possible that dependant life is the first life

[quote=Reefer Rogue]There is no reason to think that anything in the universe, or the total composed of these things, is self existent, thus there must be a GOd outside the system of dependent being who created them. The universe doesn't exist necessarily, it is not the universe's essence to exist. It's concept does not logically imply its reality in all sets of possible circumstances. And that is different from the concept of God as a greatest possible being.[quote=Reefer Rogue]Where did you pull that from? Since when did you know the reason for the universe? Why doesn't every philosopher come to you for answers, since you know so much about the necessity, or lack thereof, of the universe?

My mom and dad combined their egg and sperm.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

But of course God doesn`t need a creator. God is the only thing that gets a free pass on this implication because it suits your view. Why does the rationality stop at god, why can it not stop at the existence of a universe?

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It doesn't stop at God. If I didn't believe that God created the world, I could easily accept that the world has always been.
But since I know that God created heaven and the earth, and the world was formed by God, I know that God existed before the heaven and the earth.

But who's to say that the universe hasn't always been? God is invisible. Why can't Gods' existence consist of the universe? To me, it's very logical that the universe is a part of God's existence. I mean since God always existed, didn't he need to be somewhere? I think God always existed in the universe. I think that if God is eternal, so is the universe. Food for thought. :jointsmile:

Imagine that you're walking along in a field, and you come upn a watch on the ground. You pick it up and admire its complexity, apparently contrived by an intelligent designer for a particular purpose - that of telling time. It would not occur to you to imagine that such an object had literally been there forever and had never been brought into existence at all. That would be ludicrous.

Nor would it enter your mind that such a complex set of interworking parts just happened to come into their structural relationship and thus come into being as a watch merely by the outworkings of chance.

You'd assume instead that the mechanism had been designed and assembled by a highly intelligent and very skilled being - a person - and that it was such a being who most likely was responsible in some way for its being in the field.

The natural world around us contains many apparently complex and seemingly well-designed working structures that appear to serve well various purposes. Again, it is improbable that these natural processes and structures have been here forever or ot have been produced by blind chance, as it would the watch to either lie in the field forever, or to have come together by chance. The conclusion, is there is a divine watchmaker, a divine designer, behind the mechanisms of nature responsible for the designs we see there.

As a house imples a builder, and a garment a weaver, and a door a carpenter, so does the existence of the Universe imply a creator.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Imagine that you're walking along in a field, and you come upn a watch on the ground. You pick it up and admire its complexity, apparently contrived by an intelligent designer for a particular purpose - that of telling time. It would not occur to you to imagine that such an object had literally been there forever and had never been brought into existence at all. That would be ludicrous.

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But if I walked through a field and picked up.... let's say, a rock, would I come to the same conclusion? One could literally come to the conclusion that "Wow, this thing seems like it's been here forever!" Your example only works if one picks up an object that they deem to be complex.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Nor would it enter your mind that such a complex set of interworking parts just happened to come into their structural relationship and thus come into being as a watch merely by the outworkings of chance.

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Given billions of years (and billions more), sure. Since time keepers exist naturally in the real world (like the quartz from a watch), why can something not happen accidentally? there have been many inventions that happened from accidents, not every invention was thought up for a specific purpose.

Would a watch be crafted the way a human would make it? probably not, but could something arise that has the same function. Again, quartz is a good example. it keeps time because of its vibrations. our invention turns the quartz' vibration into the way we keep time.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

The natural world around us contains many apparently complex and seemingly well-designed working structures that appear to serve well various purposes. Again, it is improbable that these natural processes and structures have been here forever or ot have been produced by blind chance, as it would the watch to either lie in the field forever, or to have come together by chance. The conclusion, is there is a divine watchmaker, a divine designer, behind the mechanisms of nature responsible for the designs we see there.

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Again, complex is generally subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

The wheel could be viewed as complex, yet can occur naturally. A somewhat straight tree, on its side, functions as a wheel.

Levers can occur naturally. A Tree that falls onto a rock can become a lever.

So wheels and levers have existed for quite some time, man just figured out how to use what was already there.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

As a house imples a builder, and a garment a weaver, and a door a carpenter, so does the existence of the Universe imply a creator.

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do you copy and paste this?

I have no problem in someone believing that the universe was intelligently, that's fine. But to say that it was the *only* way, and then to say that you know *for sure*, and then proceed to *know* what is in this beings heart, drawn on conclusions based from assumptions... that is something that I have a problem with.

I was just saying that since God is omnipotent, he is the universe. The universe is filled with his presence. There had to be substance and evidence of his existence. I'm not saying that the universe is where "God dwells", I'm saying that he was always there. Therefore his existence (substance and evidence) was always present. You can't put a beginning to his existence, nor did he need anything for him to exist. I'm saying that what we see as "life" has always been, cause he has always been. I'm reasoning because the word "universe" is not in the bible. I think that what man has labeled universe, has always been there. This is different than him creating the heavens and the earth. I'm just saying that his presence was always there, so why do we have to put a beginning to the universe?

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Yes, jokes mean immaturity. none of us have discussed this much at all in this section of the website. And besides your poll asked how I was created, not people or life in general.

Having said that, my mom and dad boned each other, :D

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boned each other?? only men can bone...am i missing something ??daddy/ daddy=mommy?? who knows

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Originally Posted by Hardcore Newbie

Given billions of years (and billions more), sure. Since time keepers exist naturally in the real world (like the quartz from a watch), why can something not happen accidentally? there have been many inventions that happened from accidents, not every invention was thought up for a specific purpose.

Would a watch be crafted the way a human would make it? probably not, but could something arise that has the same function. Again, quartz is a good example. it keeps time because of its vibrations. our invention turns the quartz' vibration into the way we keep time.

Again, complex is generally subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

The wheel could be viewed as complex, yet can occur naturally. A somewhat straight tree, on its side, functions as a wheel.

Levers can occur naturally. A Tree that falls onto a rock can become a lever.

So wheels and levers have existed for quite some time, man just figured out how to use what was already there.

do you copy and paste this?

I have no problem in someone believing that the universe was intelligently, that's fine. But to say that it was the *only* way, and then to say that you know *for sure*, and then proceed to *know* what is in this beings heart, drawn on conclusions based from assumptions... that is something that I have a problem with.

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really anything worth using was crafted by people, and with out manipulation of diffrent things nothing would exist. so wrong again as usual, cause it takes something with a brain or higher knowledge to try diffrent things out or there would still be just trees and rocks.so from the way u believe if we wait long enough buildings will build them selfs like humans evolved into them selfs right i mean if u wait long enough the food will cook it's self too i bet the bottom line is if sumthing with a higher knowledge does'nt manipulate "matter" meaning god then none of this would be here now.name 1 thing that man has not touched that has advanced humans foward in anyway??

You want deep, Reefer Rogue?

I merely cultivated from the land. I'm a biological product of the planet's waste. Actually, no. I was hand crafted by the Lord. He stuck his mighty fingertips into clay, brought them to a point and viola! A spiritual being was created.

God created Adam out of the dust of the ground and we are all offsprings of him. :s2:

How was the universe and humanity created except for God? Has it been here forever? Has humanity? What was before the big bang? It seems illogical that i was simply thrown into existence, on a whim, on a chance.

I coallesced into existence some 3.4 million years ago from hydrogen and oxygen.

Whoa I reckon Iâ??m going to have to smoke a bit before I can join this conversation. Glad I found this place. Good ADULT conversation. On the other message boards that I am a member of must of the conversations seem to revolve around stupid childish mess, and most of the posters are adults. This topic is something I have thought long and hard about.

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Originally Posted by palerider7777

really anything worth using was crafted by people, and with out manipulation of diffrent things nothing would exist. so wrong again as usual, cause it takes something with a brain or higher knowledge to try diffrent things out or there would still be just trees and rocks.so from the way u believe if we wait long enough buildings will build them selfs like humans evolved into them selfs right i mean if u wait long enough the food will cook it's self too i bet the bottom line is if sumthing with a higher knowledge does'nt manipulate "matter" meaning god then none of this would be here now.name 1 thing that man has not touched that has advanced humans foward in anyway??

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This post is a disaster for your argument. First off, trees and plants are very complex organisms, and since you seem to be able to grasp the idea that they are the offspring of the earth there should be no problem seeing how humans came from the same place.

Your examples to try to make hardcore newb look dumb actually sort of make you look dumb. Buildings and food are not living organisms so they will never in millions of years be able to build themselves or cook themselves.

I think the belief in god is a by-product of our powerful brains. Humans are so smart that they are able to stop and think "what am I doing here? What is this for?" No other animal (as far as I know) has this ability. They all just live and keep on living.

I think this is the same reason only humans commit suicide. Our brains can comprehend what life is to the point that we realize we don't have to live, and we don't have to push forward. Animals, who act mostly on instincts and cannot think about their lives introspectively don't realize this. All they know is that they are alive and they want to stay that way.

So when humans need a way to explain why we are here and how we are here, the idea of an all powerful god who created us seems to answer those questions fairly easily.

just to prove that us christian also have a sence of humor, let me say this.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................and thats all I got to say about that.

i had a sense of humor, it was my 8'th sense.

everyone has a 6'th sense, it's called communication.

my 7'th sense was, and now it isnt.

but i dont know what.

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Originally Posted by 40oz

This post is a disaster for your argument. First off, trees and plants are very complex organisms, and since you seem to be able to grasp the idea that they are the offspring of the earth there should be no problem seeing how humans came from the same place.

Your examples to try to make hardcore newb look dumb actually sort of make you look dumb. Buildings and food are not living organisms so they will never in millions of years be able to build themselves or cook themselves.

I think the belief in god is a by-product of our powerful brains. Humans are so smart that they are able to stop and think "what am I doing here? What is this for?" No other animal (as far as I know) has this ability. They all just live and keep on living.

I think this is the same reason only humans commit suicide. Our brains can comprehend what life is to the point that we realize we don't have to live, and we don't have to push forward. Animals, who act mostly on instincts and cannot think about their lives introspectively don't realize this. All they know is that they are alive and they want to stay that way.

So when humans need a way to explain why we are here and how we are here, the idea of an all powerful god who created us seems to answer those questions fairly easily.

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Palerider seems to have a grudge with everyone that disagrees with him on anything, i honestly don't even bother reading his posts anymore.

I did read it in the quote tho, and i was amusing.

Food can't cook itself? Ever heard of a fire? :p An animal just needs to be dead and near fire to cook itself, maybe even alive.

Dwellings exist naturally as well (caves)

And catapults even exist in nature, by chance. Do I expect to see houses build themselves? No. But if we live in an infinite universe, then of course it's possible. If you disagree, then you have no understanding of what the word infinite means.

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name 1 thing that man has not touched that has advanced humans foward in anyway??

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how can something "advance" humankind if we don't touch or use it?

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

How was the universe and humanity created except for God? Has it been here forever? Has humanity? What was before the big bang? It seems illogical that i was simply thrown into existence, on a whim, on a chance.

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You've gone from making faulty step by step conclusions to this? I guess if there are no steps, there's less to pick apart :p

And I'm just curious, why is it that if you are not created by god, then you are thrown into existence? it seems to me to be created by god just as aptly describes the action of being thrown into existence. What if god decided that he wanted to make popples instead of peoples because he wanted a laugh? Wait, maybe that's why he did create us :P

The thing is, i've given many arguements, logical ones in my opinion, as to why i believe there is a God. It's easy to criticize but it's a lot harder to propose your own theory isn't it?

Being created and thrown into existence are two different ideas. One is saying I was created by a divine being and explains how i am here today. The other is saying that it is by chance i am here and really explains nothing imo. I used those words carefully in my poll because they are the words of athiest existentialist Sartre and notions from Kierkegard, whom i disagree with on this respect but agree with others.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

The thing is, i've given many arguements, logical ones in my opinion, as to why i believe there is a God. It's easy to criticize but it's a lot harder to propose your own theory isn't it?

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You know what's easier? admitting that you don't know and just think about it. Remembering that you don't know, and that you (nor anyone else) probably never will. Discussing what you don't know as a matter of opinion, and not a matter of fact. And have some fun conversations with those that do not agree, but have no facts either. Just a collection of ideas to share with each other, and burning some herb.

Yes, I'm very high right now, this shit gets me thinking sometimes :p

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Being created and thrown into existence are two different ideas. One is saying I was created by a divine being and explains how i am here today. The other is saying that it is by chance i am here and really explains nothing imo. I used those words carefully in my poll because they are the words of athiest existentialist Sartre and notions from Kierkegard, whom i disagree with on this respect but agree with others.

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I have no idea who those guys are, but the idea I get of creation is *POOF* magically appearing. Kind of a silly sight :)

I know i don't know for a fact there is a God, what i propose is rationally philosophy as to explain why i think my beliefs are justified. However, i do not have to justify my beliefs to myself, I know what i believe and am content in life. Some may see the idea of creation as silly, yet i think a lack of creation is silly, lol. We can only continue to ponder until death, which all men face, no matter how rich or poor. This is inevitable. For the athiests, what is the meaning to life, why and more importantly how are we here? I've said it before but believing in God is believing that there is meaning to life, i completely reject nihilism.

My parents went on vacation to New Zealand. They relaxed and had a "good time".

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

I know i don't know for a fact there is a God, what i propose is rationally philosophy as to explain why i think my beliefs are justified. However, i do not have to justify my beliefs to myself, I know what i believe and am content in life. Some may see the idea of creation as silly, yet i think a lack of creation is silly, lol. We can only continue to ponder until death, which all men face, no matter how rich or poor. This is inevitable. For the athiests, what is the meaning to life, why and more importantly how are we here? I've said it before but believing in God is believing that there is meaning to life, i completely reject nihilism.

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I can't speak for all atheists, but I believe the meaning of life is to live. that's it. enjoy it while you're here, you might not get a second chance.

You cannot disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Oh I love him and believe in him so. I challenge any other religion to disprove the existence of the FSM. Ramen.

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Originally Posted by angry nomad

You cannot disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Oh I love him and believe in him so. I challenge any other religion to disprove the existence of the FSM. Ramen.

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A fellow Pastafarian! Good eats to you my friend. I take it you've been touched by his noodley appendages?

After 14.6 billion years my soul decided to settle on this planet to live out multiple lifetimes. My existence has been, and always will be. I am more than just my body, I am an ethereal being that has traveled to this planet to learn. We come and go, until our human consciousness has faded and we become aware of all that is (enlightenment). Until my shells die, and my ego released...I will stay on this planet for generations to come. Then I will return to what was, and be used to support the wholeness of this universe.





Just a lil' sumthin' inspired by the words of David R. Hawkings ( I )

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

For the athiests, what is the meaning to life, why and more importantly how are we here? I've said it before but believing in God is believing that there is meaning to life, i completely reject nihilism.

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Why does life need predetermined meaning? I think the point of life is to just live. You can find your own meanings along the way.

I guess it is hard for some people to swallow but maybe there is no reason we are here. Maybe there is no greater purpose for our existence. This could be depressing to some, but think of it this way; all this life is is what you get out of it. It's a chance to actually see what the sunset looks like, a chance to experience what love feels like, a chance to explore the physical world and to find all the beauty it has to offer.

If you know anything about existentialism, them you know that you should reject nihilism. I believe the meaning of life to be subjective. I believe we create our own meaning of life through the choices we make. I believe the meaning of life is to live in peace by following the philosophy of Jesus Christ, Jah. No one has convinced me that there is not a God or ever shall. All things speak of God. I find in the universe so many forms of order, organisation, system law, and adjustment of means to ends, that I believe in a cosmic intelligence and I concienve God as the life, mind, order, and law of the world. Let us weigh the gain and loss, in wagering that God is. Consider these alternatives: if you win, you win all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Do not hesitate, then, to wager that He is. When you have succeeded in enshrining God within your heart, you will see Him everywhere.

'It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe without the agency of a supreme being.' - George Washington

I disagree with existentialism as it has been summarized to me. To not care about life because you believe in nothing afterwards seems silly to me. If in fact there is nothing after this, then you should cherish life while you have it.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Let us weigh the gain and loss, in wagering that God is. Consider these alternatives: if you win, you win all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Do not hesitate, then, to wager that He is

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please please please don't use this argument. We are both gambling in regards to faith and gods, I just believe in one less God than you do. And the "gambling" aspect only works if the faith you choose is true.

It's entirely as conceivable that there is a God that wants people to realize morals on their own, rather than through fear. God may or may not punish anyone based on their beliefs if such a God exists. So to say that betting on God is the winning bet, would be the exact same as me saying that disbelief and scepticism are the winning bet(s).

'Anything is possible' - Me.

I had a funny thought with the gambling thing.

imagine going to a casino with some chips, waiting to play the million numbered roulette. You want to bet on a few numbers to increase your odds, but the casino tells you that with certain numbers, you can only bet on those numbers and no others. If you do, you automatically lose the bet. And they tell you they'll let you know if you've won when you die :p

This isn't meant to illustrate anything really, it was just a funny thought.

I was planted by aliens, man:hippy: