I would say that murder is universally recognized as evil by all mankind (I omit self-defense or war). Do you not agree?
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I would say that murder is universally recognized as evil by all mankind (I omit self-defense or war). Do you not agree?
Murder is another term that is relative and instead of there being a fine line, it is bordered by a hazy gray area.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajMike
I disagree that murder is universally recognized as evil by all mankind, however. What Hitler did was not just murder.. it was genocide. Yet he believed it was the right thing to do, that he was doing the world a favor.
I personally would label that "evil" without a seconds hesitation, but there are neo-nazis and white supremacists worldwide that would repeat the process if they could.
Serial Killers murder people without remorse simply because it fascinates them, they dont view it as evil even though you or I would.
If you were to ask me to define "evil" I would say:
Evil is the absence of all love and compassion. An evil act would be one completely devoid of any love, compassion or empathy for the target of the act.
So instead of evil being a "thing" it is more of a "void." Thats one perspective at least.
GraziLovesMary, that was the most eloquent and poetic way i have seen that explanation given, you're good...
Thanks man it just kinda came to me after many years of having it on the cerebral backburner. Eloquation is somewhat of a hobby of mine, as is poetry and music. They are all inexorably connected.
i can understand your love of eloquence, i'm a writer, preferably as profession-
poetry is quite enjoyable to write as well. :)
Yeah I started reading when I was three and just went crazy with it. My college english papers usually took me about an hour to write. No outline, and the first draft was the final one. I was never corrected on any of them either. I used to write my ex's papers too lol. I wrote a 10 page expose on the effects of Cocaine use on the human body, especially on teenagers, in full medical format for her nursing final. Took me a day lol.
i hate people like you :wtf:
makes me look bad, stop being so good at writing!!!
lol
(jks)
hahaha thats the cool thing about writing, its mostly done in private so unless the writer talks about it nobody knows how long it took him :p
lol
That anything other than Hydrogen exists in our Universe is the ultimate example of evolution, the very atoms that make up our bodies have lived through several generations of star birth and death.
I am a Christian, but I believe that evolution is simply a natural law used by God in the process of creation. To deny it's role in the grand scheme of things is ridiculous, and only makes one seem intractably ignorant.
I agree with you MajMike. Why is it the people seem to think they must choose either science OR religious faith? Make your own version of faith and tie it in with your own scientific beleifs. thats all anything in your mind realy is anyways, just a belief.
the world is flat... well that's what they used to think , based on the best available evidence. What the scientific community perceive at any moment in time is based on the tools available to science at that point, and the language available to express that perception. Then, sooner or later, something comes along to blow that perception out of the water, the old rules are suddenly seen to be flawed or inadequate. All of which probably means that we will never know, at least not in our current state of existence, whatever that is.
Ever changing our beleifs and perceptions
That constant changing of our beliefs and perceptions is our personal evolution, and on a macro scale the societal evolution we see taking place before our eyes both here in North America and (through CNN and the web) in the rest of the world.
The only constant is change, adapt or die.
I dont think the majority of the people here responding are using the idea that only one or the other can exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
The problem lies in the fact that you ask how we got here if God didnt put us here, which would be a valid question if you werent using a non proven dependant as the basis for your question.
You have no proof that God exists. God could very well be an idea in your head, or a magical little leprechun, or any other number of things. We have no proof, you have no proof, no proof has been brought to the light of mankind to prove God's existance, or lack thereof.
As a wise cartoon character voiced by Samuel L Jackson once said...
"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."
Granted yes it does work both ways in this situation, but I would imagine most people who take any real time to look into this age old question would realize this. There isnt an answer for or against God(s) or Big Bang theory.
Science does not claim to have any real facts. In essence, all we have are a bunch of things that we have noticed throughout our existance which have happened the same way since we started observing them.
Just because the floor underneath your bed has always been there for you to put your feet on when you get out of bed each morning doesnt mean it will be there tommorow. Most scientific "fact" exists only as long as it takes for our understanding of the matter to expand enough to allow us to see said "fact" more clearly.
The problem lies in one main thing IMO, that man has a hard time grasping the unknown. Man doesnt like not having the answers, and has been known throughout history to use what later on is viewed as false information to explain things that happen that they dont understand. These days we dont have too many God(s) of the Tide/Ocean, or of the Harvest, or any other number of things that existed in quite a few periods in human history.
We dont know what tommorow will show to us in regards to science and all the things that are being researched. Tommorow might show us the true existance of a(n) God, or it might be the same as yesterday. And when we have what we view as a "fact" its beyond most of us to comprehend that being fundamentally wrong, because if we knew why it was wrong, we wouldnt view it as a fact any longer. Just as the earth was flat, but is now round... just as the sun revolved around the earth, and now the earth revolves around the sun... just as gods controlled the tides, and now the moon and other various things do... We are constantly learning, constantly expanding our knowledge of the things around us, which allows us to constantly modify that which we had known before with new knowledge as it becomes available.
If you had mentioned the entire idea behind a computer to someone from the 1400's, they would believe that it was not possible, it was incomprehendable, or so I would imagine. Yet computers exist today. Hell, back in the 80's a certain prominent tech person stated that there would never be a need for more then a certain amount of RAM.. yet today we see computer programs that require 1-2gb of RAM. But just because they couldnt comprehend such things, doesnt mean they wont exist, it just means that it perhaps is beyond our reach with our currently intelligence and information.
"The only thing we can know for certain, is that we know nothing for certain..."
I have heard that quote from somewhere, but cant seem to find who to attribute it to from a quick google search. Most likely a prominent philosoper, although I could have just made it up and not realized. Either way, its point is pretty clear, and I think makes alot of sense, especially in relation to what is being discussed in this thread.
Ive rambled enough for now, and to think that im not even high... well, not THAT high anymore.
Ok God may not be a provable thing, but the word still exists. Perhaps instead of taking a scientific factual aproach to the word lets look inward for a personal subjective meaning for God. Iv got a belief that everything happens for a reason, that there Is Meaning. God is me proving to my self that there is reason. Heres an intresting thought as well, dont think of God as the Creator but rather as Creating. And not as a person because a person is only a part of the picture God would be the picture, photagrapher, frame and wall the pictures on, if you ask me :P.
I think modern religion is like the greek and roman gods. The scientist had to some how explain to the common people why things like natural disasters and other natural things happened so they wouldnt freak out. And the odd greek stories were made so there was some type of code of conduct for the people to live by. I think that modern religion is just made up to explain why things happen because they didnt have the knowledge or technology to scientifcly explain things. The bible is a good book to read on how to life your live, but i prefer non-fiction. :jointsmile:
I think science is great, but i also believ in somthing beyond reason.
We might just be a dream that some spiritual energy is having. That is just one idea and it makes as much sense as the idea that there is a god. And as far as ideas go there are an infinite number of them. You could choose one. You could choose many. I choose to be agnostic. I have no idea what is going on other than what I sense both externally and internally. And all of that is the best guess my brain can make... maybe;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
The key thing is recognizing that it is a belief, and nothing more. Too many people seem to confuse beliefs with "facts" and truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by AtmanWalter
You believe that there must be something beyond what we can see right now. Bob over there believes that this is it, what you see is what you get, nothing more nothing less.
Both of you are equally right, same as all shades inbetween are equally right. And by equally right I mean that neither side is wrong, because we have no means to prove either.
And ironically, at least to me, the only way to prove there is a God(s) is by use of science. Sure a shiny being popping up would convince some people, but others would want hard substantiated data. Which I think makes sense if you are truely religious and part of the Catholic/Christian faith. That whole making sure not to worship false gods and whatnot.
I <3 the Dreamer's theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by bhouncy
...if we never try.Quote:
Originally Posted by fauxsho
If you have a negative connotation towards anyone or anything including yourself, there is no possible way you qualifiy to answer the question,"Is God real?"
I just want to point out we are continuing a discussion older than civilization, and one which will continue as long as the species does.
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible. St. Thomas Aquinas "
"The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven. John Milton"
I like those quotes Maj. Try to think about God in this way ( im not saying this is the only way or even true ), its a totaly subjective word getting all of its meaning from the percivers inward meaning of it lacking any provable objective existence.
But the thing is, how do you honestly expect anyone in this world to fully understand YOUR inward meaning of god.
No one in this world will ever comprehend fully what you think and feel. The only thing available is your ability to communicate said things to us as best as possible.
Maybe you found God, have undeniable proof and everything else. But right now, what you speak of, and how you speak of it, is no differen then any of the other things that people have said in relation to God(s)/deities.
People have had this debate for century upon century upon century. The great philosophers of greek and roman times had these debates, people in all the well known era's in early european history have had them, not to mention countless people in modern time as well.
And the reason the question still remains, and people still debate it, is that there is no known way to prove or disprove the existance of a God(s).
And, technically, God isnt a subjective word. No religion that I have read about yet refers to it as such. God in any religion is a definable, non-subjective "being", that does not change based on who thinks about him. That is why religions have war against other religions... because each believes that their idea of God(s) is the correct one, that there is no subjectivity at all, and the other person is wrong, commiting what amounts to blasphamy, and should perish for their sins.
This is what smoking weed is all about. God. You look inside yourself with a third-person perspective. You look at your God, no matter what way you look at it.
initator im not trying to be some mesiah and end the great philisophical question of all time, im just trying to share my view. And what your saying about God in religion is defineable, first lets draw the line between religion and spirituality. Religion is an organization that uses god for its own reasons, that are often corrupt. Spirituality is the faith in the religion that makes the organization possilbe, it is the belief in a god that can offten be conformed to a relgion. I personaly am not part of any religion but im a very spiritual person. What im saying is try to find your own meaning for God, if it requiers science and proff more power to you. But that is your own meaning for god. Another person may say God cannot be proven and that statement, like yours, is a reflection of their own belief of god. All objective statments, books, forum threads and so on about God are refelctions of the writers and sayers inner meaning of God.
The thing is though, those "religions" wouldnt exist without followers who prescribe to at least the majority of the beliefs of said religion.
Even in your own words, God is very definable, because you can tell us at least in part what God means to you, how it is for you. The fact that you can use anything to describe it means that it is definable.
But I understand what you are saying, and to a large extent I agree with you... but without disagreement and discourse and discussion, everything is so bland.
Never can really fully expand your knowledge and horizons if everyone always agree's with everyone on everything, or at least thats how I always look at it.
I like the argument :) , hence why i continue. It is true that God is definable, the definition is a reflection of the inner meaning. All inner qualites has exterior corrilates and vise versa.
'The thing is though, those "religions" wouldnt exist without followers who prescribe to at least the majority of the beliefs of said religion'
Yea but it seems most of the time that there are the masses and there are the leaders. The leaders usualy have goals and intentions that are hidden from the masses. And thus the leaders use the masses for those goals and intentions.
boiler... i think string theory is a great theory and very well could prove more accurate than some current theories (relativity and quantum) but it is far from "proven" or even accepted by the larger scientific community
if god DOES exist answer me this... why hasn't science even been able to ever think of explaining it or proving it?
we're alot closer to proving big bang and evolution then god...
very few scientists have discovered that the application of God to science will enable the creation of technology far beyond what we have created thus far. btw i use the word god loosely to describe all spirituality because god is not just one entity it is everything real...ok it is one entity, but we are all that entity and the earth is that entiy, so it gets a little complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by slipknotpsycho
Very few? Care to name which ones have discovered this fabled information?Quote:
Originally Posted by PureEvil760
Anything, any information on this revelation that science will suddenly become so much better if people infused God into it.
Nevermind the fact that some religions state that science and the things it has discovered are all untrue, while others work so closely with theorietical physics and quantum mechanics that its not even funny.
And just living in general will enable us to create technology far beyond what we have created so far. Look at the leaps that were accomplished without any inclusion of God(s) in the past 100 years.
Not to mention, how do you apply something that is by all accounts completely random and unpredictable at best to an art that is based entirely on things being precise and predictable. Is this where whenever we find a problem with a theory or something, that we can now say .. "musta been god" instead of taking the time to try to discover what is causing the problem and resolving it? Can the String/M Theorists immediately validate everything they have been working on by taking the parts that dont add up and invoking the new god rule?
Belief has no place in science. Science has no place in belief. They work on two entirely different principles, and combining them will only make both near impossible to use.
Here is a question:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
If god created earthly time, and therefore transcends it, it would stand to reason that he knows all things, past, present, and future. So he knows which of us are "saved" and which of us are condemned before we are born. We would have virtually no free will. So for anyone who believes in this type of Christian god, and his bible, answer:
If god knows this, why would he even create a bible instructing us on how to be a good person and get into heaven? It would be utterly futile. He would already know.
And to answer the original question of this thread, I will start by saying that the universe is infinite. If it is NOT infinite, that would imply that something exists outside of it. But the word "universe" includes all things in existence. So if anything did exist outside of the universe, it would also be part of the universe.
In an infinite expanse of space, time and matter, there is an infinite array of matter composition, combination, organization and placement. Some of these are inevitably going to BE in such a manner that they will produce what we all galaxies, solar systems, and our own ecosystem.
If there is any chance of something happening, no matter how infinitesimally slight, it will happen. Over and over and over, and infinite amount of times. We just happen to be the result of one particular occurrence that happened to produced viable, intelligent life.
Making any effort to believe in God(s) would be futile, as if you were meant to believe, then it would be destined. Thats the bitch about predestination... it removes any need to have will to live and act... as if you were meant to do something, you will do it, wether you intended to or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by powair
God would like everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth. He allows us to do what we want.Quote:
Originally Posted by powair
He's not controlling us, he knows what we're gonna do.
Are you saying that everything you do is an act of God?
Not only that, but an all knowing god is incompatible with an all powerful god. God can either know everything, past present and future while being powerless to stop it, or he can be all powerful, changing time on a whim, while not having knowledge of what happens next.Quote:
Originally Posted by powair
If you read what I actually wrote, you will notice that I did not say god is controlling us. You did not even come close to a rational answer for my question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit