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Well, if you're handy in the workshop, should be OK. Zandor's looks fairly mechanically stable.
I'm only planning one alteration to Z's work- will be using silicone sealant instead of self-adhesive foam on the tube ends where they meet the sheetmetal. I think the foam would degrade from heat & UV and might indeed become loose. Silicone is an instant rubber gasket which will handle 500F all day for years.
I don't have enuf experience with exhaust fans to recommend one. Sorry.
I found 6" od bake-a-rounds on Ebay.
Dude - cooltubes ain't rocket science. You think they are, I know I did, until you install them and then you think, "I could have made this myself." There's a couple of good cooltube DIY's - Al posted one link above. If you're trying to save a few bucks, make it yourself.
That's a fairly long run, particularly if you're using flexible duct.Quote:
Originally Posted by criom
Axial blowers can't push into a lot of static pressure (backpressure). Air pressure leaks backward between the fan blades. Axials won't meet their CFM ratings if there's a lot of flow resistance/backpressure downline. Example of an axial fan.
Centrifugal types are better when you have to push air down a long run, through a few 90 bends or through a carbon filter. Example of a centrifugal blower.
I'm probably not giving you any good news as centrifs tend to be more expensive than axials. Sorry!
If you can shorten your duct run or replace long straight sections with plain steel duct, it'll move more air.
On the BGH cooltube the socket is connected to an L bracket which is attached to the sheet metal. The L bracket is attached with an eye screw & nut which is also used for hanging that end of the cooltube. So, essentially, the bulb is directly supported by the hanger. It would take a major calamity for that part to come disconnected and fall. It's, like, almost impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al B. Fuct
The above mentioned mounting hole isn't air-tight. Since I'm sucking air thru the tubes, I don't care if it's air-tight. This whole cooltube concept doesn't require air-tight. It only requires that sufficient air be sucked past the bulbs to transfer the heat.
If the duct run isn't too long, I think this one will do it (edit: for 4" tubes). Rated 40CFM. We're only cooling one light, not venting an entire grow op. Presuming you already have a main exhaust fan.
For 6" something like this will do, but we're back to $57 and 250CFM (also presuming short duct)
If you bring in air from just outside the op and dump it just outside as well, it won't need any scent treatment. You'll only need to use care not to allow warmed air to get sucked right back into the op.
Airtightness depends on how you organise your airflow and scent control.Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmaCan
If you push 'clean' air from outside the op thru the cooltubes, they're at positive pressure compared to the op. Any cooltube air leaks will just vent 'clean' air into the op airmass, which will then leave the op through the main exhaust blower. No wucking furries.
If you suck air through your cooltubes, they will be at negative pressure compared to the 'stinky' air in the op. 'Stinky' air can then enter the cooltube via leaks and will exit via the cooltube fan. That air then has to be scent treated via filter, ioniser, etc.
I'd prefer to have fans upstream from the tubes for 2 reasons- the fan doesn't get exposed to the warm airstream from the lamp and the tubes run at positive pressure.
wow Al B. Fuct thanks for the examples and the link
that 6-In 250CFM is a great deal, but yea needs wiring and stuff...ill still try to get the shortest ducting possible (maybe i can get it down to less then 10 feet total)
also for me air leaks in the cool tubes does make a huge difference because co2 is involved. so i believe i would run them at positive preassure/upstream to be more effective?
great info :)
Al - you make a good point about the air pressure. I'm using the cooltube to exhaust the cabinet w/ fresh, air-conditioned air coming from inside my house. Since this is a veg cab, I wasn't worried too much about the smell. However, I am using a big exhaust filter.
Criom - Why do you need such a long run on the duct?
coolio. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by criom
no worries :)Quote:
also for me air leaks in the cool tubes does make a huge difference because co2 is involved. so i believe i would run them at positive preassure/upstream to be more effective?
great info :)
I think a bead of silicone sealant would make a leak-free connection.
If there's lots of airflow, such as in PharmaCan's case (he's got a bigmuthahompin' centrif on his cooltube), each cubic foot of air passing over the lamp tubes has to absorb less heat and has less time to do so than with smaller fans, so the actual tube output air temp won't be very high for him. He can get away with having his blower downstream, sucking air through the tubes. Betting his cooltube air exhaust temp isn't over 90F, probably less.
If you're not moving air at huge rates, it will get warmer as it spends longer in the cooltube. Fans of lower capacity should be placed upstream, blowing air first over the socket.
"Criom - Why do you need such a long run on the duct?"
because i was planning on mounting the intake duct to my air conditioner which is about 9 feet away, i could just intake from the room and use 3-4 feet.
"I think a bead of silicone sealant would make a leak-free connection."
should i be using this for every connection made even to the fan?
"If there's lots of airflow, such as in PharmaCan's case (he's got a bigmuthahompin' centrif on his cooltube), each cubic foot of air passing over the lamp tubes has to absorb less heat and has less time to do so than with smaller fans, so the actual tube output air temp won't be very high for him. He can get away with having his blower downstream, sucking air through the tubes. Betting his cooltube air exhaust temp isn't over 90F, probably less.
If you're not moving air at huge rates, it will get warmer as it spends longer in the cooltube. Fans of lower capacity should be placed upstream, blowing air first over the socket."
hm if i am going to get the smaller fan, and as you say it should be mounted blowing over the socket...would it be a bad idea to mount the fan right on the cooltube ? or maybe with a small piece of ducting in between it so it was blowing as hard as possible directly up the socket and over the bulb.
im not sure if the vibrations from that would damage the bulb or not, could block the light a little too i guess
Yep, you're quite right, vegging plants don't stink much. Your filter may not be needed, but soon as you removed it, some nosey-nose would pick it up. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmaCan
My cooltubes are for a pair of 1000s in a flowering area. They are getting a completely independent air circuit- cool 'clean' air in from outside the op airmass, pressurised tubes with blowers upstream, dumping air also outside the op airmass of course. No filtration needed as I'm not drawing 'stinky' air through the circuit.
Sure can't hurt. If you have to disassemble at a later date, you'll have to cut the stuff free with a razor knife, but that's no biggie. It doesn't harden like epoxy or caulk.Quote:
Originally Posted by criom
Remote mounting the fan will provide some vibration isolation, good idea.Quote:
hm if i am going to get the smaller fan, and as you say it should be mounted blowing over the socket...would it be a bad idea to mount the fan right on the cooltube ? or maybe with a small piece of ducting in between it so it was blowing as hard as possible directly up the socket and over the bulb.
im not sure if the vibrations from that would damage the bulb or not, could block the light a little too i guess
Criom - I doubt the occasional cool air you might suck from the a/c duct would be worth the loss of flow due to such a long duct. Also remember, that a/c duct is blowing warm air some of the time too.
This probably goes without saying but, wherever you mount the fan, be sure to take into consideration if you want the light to be moveable.
Damn glad you mentioned that, PC. I would have forgotten to take that into consideration (but I just blew a cone, too :D ).Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmaCan
"Criom - I doubt the occasional cool air you might suck from the a/c duct would be worth the loss of flow due to such a long duct. Also remember, that a/c duct is blowing warm air some of the time too."
it would not be occassional cool air...i would litterally seal the duct directly to the output on my window air conditioner and run that 10 feet to the intake on the cooltube. in addition i could boost that flow with the Suncourt 6 Inch, i think that plus the high powered fan already built into the air conditioner unit would create a pretty strong flow..
or i could use the fan to suck the cool air towards and out..
edit: said air conditioner runs 24/7 at the highest cooling rate...
criom, like PC, I think ducting a/c over the lights is overkill. I think you'll keep the surface of the cooltube very cool compared to op airmass temp just by pumping ambient temp air through the tube (unless it's summer and you live in Las Vegas ;) ).
That's your goal, BTW- stopping transfer of heat from the lamp to the room airmass. Cooling the surfaces exposed to the op airmass is how this is accomplished.
You won't stop the radiated shortwave IR with a cooltube- your hand will still feel warm in direct light- but you will stop the longwave IR that normally heats your op airmass.
Reserve drawing air from the a/c as a last ditch trick if the cooltubes don't get your room temps down to the necessary 80F max- but don't put it on the lights, put it on the plants.
here's an interesting read on thermal radiation on Wikipedia.
i guess thats part of my problem is that im trying to setup a sealed room and i cant have any intake or exhaust...so i cant put the AC right on the plants...or anything else really.
but i will definitely keep that in mind...hopefully like you say it wont come to that
damn thanks for the wiki link, now ill be up all night doing math :)
mmmm... there's gotta be a 'gozin' and a 'gozout.'Quote:
Originally Posted by criom
Nothing gozin if nothing gozout.
I hate to spring this on ya, but if you can't vent the space, you can't grow in it. You must have an effective way to bring in fresh, CO2 laden air and exhaust humid, CO2 depleted air (and leaving a closet door open a couple of hours a day doesn't count).
The air volume requirements for a grow op far exceed the size of the building you'll use to house the op. Can't grow in a totally sealed room, simple as that- unless you happen to live in a blimp hangar...
haha im aware of that
god id love to live in a blimp hanger on a side note...
i can vent the space whenever i want, and co2 would be constantly pumped in...but for the most part it would stay more or less sealed, aside from whatever way i find to insert the 2 duct tubes into the room...
which im not really sure how to do yet. there is a small 1x1 opening hinge door at the bottom of it and ill run them both through there....but i have no idea how to fill in the space between the duct tubes since theyll be in a square opening.
i ussually flood the op with a fan using that square hole but since ill be putting 2 duct tubes there that will pretty much take up the space ill have to find a new way to exaust..
Croim - what is your "grow room"? A room? A cabinet?
Here's a DIY on a cabinet I just built. Maybe you can get some ventilation ideas from there.
BTW - two 6" ducts won't fit through a 1'x1' square hole. If you're using 4" duct, use a hole saw and cut two 4" holes in a 1'x1' piece of plywood then seal with silicon.
1x1- feet?
OK, let me see if i have this right...
You want to use a closed-path cooltube, drawing air from outside to cool the lamp and then dumping it outside the op airmass.
You're supplying CO2 in hope of not having to draw air in for the op- right?
Where is your transpired moisture going?
Is there no ventilation path for the op airmass?
Am I missing something here?
pharmacan-your cabinet is amazing, i wish i had seen that thread a few hours ago, some great pictures there. it definitely gives me some vent ideas... had no idea i was talking with a professional builder...jeez.
mine is a closet with an access panel to the attic in the ceiling that is currently sealed shut, but i could mount a squirrel cage fan onto it i guess and use that as an exhaust. which would go perfect with
"use a hole saw and cut two 4" holes in a 1'x1' piece of plywood then seal with silicon". then it could be completely light and mostly air sealed...great!
btw-that story you told your neighbor is brilliant, and if i were him id probably believe that mylar was anti-microwave film if you started going into tech specs :error:
al b fuct-
"You're supplying CO2 in hope of not having to draw air in for the op- right? " no im using co2 for increased yields.
"Where is your transpired moisture going? " i exhaust it with a strong fan, so out of the op and into my room. if i answered that wrong please clarify
"Is there no ventilation path for the op airmass?"
as per the hydrofarm instructions i clear the room out every 3 hours, and run co2 with it sealed the rest of the time.
1x1 feet is just the small access door i made at the bottom of the closet door, it is not the actual size of my growspace lol
what am i doing wrong here?
your correct when you say i want a closed path cooltube drawing air from outside op and dumping it back outside. the ventilation path for the op airmass would be the every 3 hour exhaust cycle with the strong fan.
from your questions it sounds like im doing something very very wrong here
what is it?
criom - Yeah, I'm a noob a growing but an ace at construction. I just took my first clones today and I'm hoping all goes well with them. I followed Al's cloning instructions to the "T", so if the clones fail at least I have someone to blame it on. LOL
Anyway, as you can see all that vent stuff takes up quite a bit of space and I don't have your intake duct.
How big is your closet? Are you running your cool tube vertically or horizontal?
Have you seen this thread - The sealed room 3 lbs. per light you might get some vent ideas from there.
haha good backup plan on blaming Al im sure thatll go well :O
they look great to me, although huge!
yea i was amazed at how much work and design goes into wiring the venting ducts and such...but that home made carbon filter you have is so slick, looks store bought.
the closet is 3 wide 2 deep and 7 high, although i have another 3x3x7 space too. at this point though im thinking of just converting my entire 10x12 bedroom and sleeping in a big carbon filter
im not sure how im going to run the cool tube yet. since everyone says the reflector sucks maybe i should go vertical?
god this 3lbs/light thread is insane....what is it 14 1k lights? if he can figure out how to keep that cool i should be able to learn and handle 1 bulb hehe thx for pointing this out
i wanna see your cab in action though during flowering, be sure to bring your neighbor over to show him the servers
just tell him Dell went all organic
So, what happens to the temps and particularly the humidity in the room over the 3 hours that no air is moving through it?Quote:
Originally Posted by criom
That's just a vegging cab. By the time the clones are vegged I will have built a 10' x 10' flowering room. I'm growing mmj (medical) for my sis and I and the number of plants I can have is limited - but the size of the plants isn't. So I'm leaning towards larger plants.
Al's instructions said to take big clones so that's what I did. If this comes down to the blame game, I'm not leaving him any outs. LOL
That's one hefty filter. I had to buy real thunder-thigh tights to get around the eight inches. But it only cost about $25 - I already had the wire so maybe $30 - but hell I saw the same thing online for $250.
I'm going to see if I can find a thread about a guy's verticle cool tube grow. He had about the same size op as yours and his results were damn fine. Ya know, when see a thread on this board that you think has good info that you might want to refer to later, it's a good idea to make some comment on the thread, even if just "way cool", then you can find the thread again by searching your own name.
the humidity stays at 45% (i dont know why) and the temps rise to about 90-100, it has one small fan circulating air...comparable to a large computer fan.
the temp is the main reason im getting the cooltube, that and i want more lumens so the co2 is better used.
ive done one run with it and seen a 30-40% increase, so it seems like i could really pull alot if i had that last lumen/temp golden number dialed into my space.
what should the temp/humidity be at in your book?
i imagine if i put the tube in the temps would at least drop to 85F or less, and thats perfect. hopefully...
According to those much wiser than me, temps in the 90's are just fine if you are using co2. As far as humidity goes, one needs a dehumidifier in a sealed room.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al B. Fuct
...but criom loves buying equipment so that will surely come as good news to him.:D
pharmacan-
thats insane, your plants are going to be so huge you prolly wont even be able to see the light! are you going to build it in the same room as that one or another room in your mansion? seems like you have a really big house from the pics
i cant believe they even make tights that big, a person could fit inside that friggin thing. why dont you sell them on ebay or something? id buy one.
i would very much like to see that thread, i think ive searched the forums for every cool tube post ever but i dotn think ive seen that one you speak of.
will do on the "way cool" technique, my bookmark file is getting waaay tooo big.
that is awsome that you can grow for medical reasons (awsome that they allow you, not that you have medical reasons) are you going to mount vertically for flower? or stick to the same setup as your veg cab only a bit bigger?
and wtf you gonna tell the neighbors about that one? that you run your own isp now? :)
cant wait to see that build thread...ill be printing that one out for sure
hahaa i love buying equipment....NO :P
ive heard that temps in the 90s are ok for co2, but this summer it is really hot and it easily slips into over 105+ if i dont keep an eye on it. i dont think that is safe really...considering the wood on the outside of the closet gets so hot it almost hurts to touch.
the plants can barely handle 95+ too....last time i didnt have to trim the top fan leaves off after harvest....because they burnt off..
so yea i think i need it a little colder...
is a dehumidifier needed for 45% humidity even in a sealed room? i thought that was ideal. maybe i got bad info...
This isn't the one I was looking for, but check out this giy's verticle garden.
....still searching for the one....
holy crap
that grow is nuts! it better end with an outside shot of the ufo he built that in....
my god..
Well, I couldn't find the thread I was looking for. This guy had a closet about the same size as yours and he had four or six plants and a vertical cool tube and when he was done the entire closet was packed with plant growing right up to the cool tube.
But your closet is tall enough you'd probably want two vertical lamps. LOL that pesky equipment thing again.
My "mansion" - roflmao. I've got a three-car garage and I'm using one the spaces for my grow op. A lot of my neighbors have built offices and shops in their garages, so there's nothing out of the ordinary to be building in my garage. From my garage, the only thing you will see of the grow room will be the walls, a door and the backside of the air conditioner.
I'm not exactly sure what the grow room will be. It might be a "clean room" for semi-conductor assembly. I'm not quite sure what a semi-conductor is, or even if I'm spelling it right, but they sure sound like something that need to be put together in a "clean room, don't they?
"But your closet is tall enough you'd probably want two vertical lamps. LOL that pesky equipment thing again." AHHHHHHRRrrrggggggg
3 car garage is still bigger then some houses ive seen...but thats an awsome space to have for sure.
ahahaha yea a "clean room" for your semi-conductor sounds right
although they could take that to mean your making porn in there....
which is another good exuse too...
vertical is starting to make more sense to me since the footprint from the tube seems to be alot wider then a normal reflector...not that ive ever seen what it looks like on a large open space.
but i like the way it looks too, like part of a space ship.
thanks for digging for that thread neway, itll pop up again i hope
Hey Al - check out this page. Rock.Steady figured out how to post pics in-line, the way you want to for your cloning photo-essay. He's the guy to ask about it.
Hey, this is SoCal - one's as good as the other. :pimp:Quote:
Originally Posted by criom
jeezus, I take the Queen's flamin' birthday off and I come back to 240 message per hour scroll! :D
If big clones with thick stems don't work better for you than tiny little snips with the leaves cut in half (the only POSSIBLE way cloning can work, I was told 10-odd years ago... :D ), I'l eat my hat and BBQ a couple of felt fedoras for dinner. :D Fat stems root faster and more profusely. Thing is, the old (pre-HID lighting, mainly outdoor) grow guides didn't want you taking cuttings from mainstems as those would produce the best buds. Cuttings were best taken from lowers that wouldn't produce much anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmaCan
If you have a second hygrometer lying around, do a quick comparison, make sure none are lying. Happens from time to time.Quote:
Originally Posted by criom
Could also have an awful lot to do with this curve.
Notice what happens to RH when you're approaching 38-40C (100-105F). The amount of water you need in the air to increase humidity rises logarithmically.
The air just might be able to hold all the transpired moisture the plants can put out between 3-hourly ventilations and yet not exceed 45% at 90-100F. :jawdropper: (but it's a dryyyyyyyyyy heat! :D )
Astonishing. Wouldn't have expected that.
I've run CO2 before, but always have had dedicated aircon units set for about 85F, which dealt with the humidity- or so I thought. Seems high temp alone may have been enough to control the RH... but these ops were 8 and 10kW, impossible in the spaces used without aircon, so I don't have a comparison base.
Sounds like it!Quote:
ive done one run with it and seen a 30-40% increase, so it seems like i could really pull alot if i had that last lumen/temp golden number dialed into my space.
With CO2, 85F, 90 max.Quote:
what should the temp/humidity be at in your book?
If the heat produced by the dehumidifier (and they make a fair amount, they are little aircon units) doesn't tip the room over 85 avg 90 max, it'd be a solution for a ventless grow. I rely on my dehumidifier to warm up my op in winter during lights off as well as keep RH under control.Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmaCan
Walmart has a cute little a/c unit that sits entirely in the room with a small exhaust vent to outside for the excess heat. Naturally, with the cooling coils inside, it's a dehumidifier too.Quote:
If the heat produced by the dehumidifier (and they make a fair amount, they are little aircon units) doesn't tip the room over 85 avg 90 max, it'd be a solution for a ventless grow. I rely on my dehumidifier to warm up my op in winter during lights off as well as keep RH under control.