Jews Wake Up !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zimzum

Torog or anyone who wants the use of nukes I ask you to watch an old 80's movie called "The Day After". Not everyone is hell bent on wiping out our existence. Even a small scale nuclear war would have a huge environmental impact And what about the ideology that says there can be world peace? Ideology of democracy?

You and your Christian right friends can go play in the sand box with your holy war toys.

---

Howdy Zimzum,

I've seen that movie,a couple,three times and I'd urge my fellow Americans to watch it an see what happens when ya ain't prepared - as we all should be. Another good show,is "Jericho".

I realize that not everyone is hell-bent on wiping us out,just the muslim-jihadists and hard-line commies.

You and your 5th columinst friends,won't be playing in the sand box,you'll be filling it with sand,because of yer status as a dhimmini,because of yer failure to stand against the true enemies of freedom.

I will never rest comfortably,until everyone is free..why is it-that you sleep soundly,while so many languish under brutal tryanny ?

Have a good one ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrdevious

I agree that Iran must not build a single nuclear weapon, and war may even be necessary to stop them from doing so.

However, I also think the west needs to stop being hypocrites and dismantle their own nuclear program (after perfecting an anti-missile defense system). Whether or not western nations use such devices "justly", you can't expect to have thousands of nukes then tell everybody else they can't have them, then expect those nations to say "ok, that's fair, you keep the nuclear monopoly then."

---

I would agree with all that if, you "had to have" a missile to deliver a bomb. I think unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle on this. Sooner or later something very bad is going to happen, even if the world is successful in stopping Iran (and North Korea) this time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Torog

I will never rest comfortably,until everyone is free..why is it-that you sleep soundly,while so many languish under brutal tryanny ?

Have a good one ...

---

I rest comfortably because I know the terrorist have not won. When someone such as you and others go on a rant about an Iranian threats or extremest threats they have won. They caused you to fear there tactic of terror. If you do not fear these people they are no different then IMO early American colonist. We fought off the British and there tyrant rule on us.. Can not they feel the same way about US foreign policy? Whats right for you and me might not be right to them. So they fight for there beliefs.

I believe "we" as humans, not because of religious or political teaching should stand up for each other. End more important things in this world like starvation, genocide, racism, greed. Once those issues are met there will be allot less hatred in this world and more reason for peace. Simply throwing more war on top of war will only compound our currently overlooked issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Torog

Howdy mrdevious,

Well I'm glad that you at least recognize the threat that Iran is,to the Free World and especially Israel.

As for disarming ourselves,while hard-line commies and violent muslim-jihadists don't..no sane person,with common sense,would trust them with nukes. The 'everybody else' that you refer to,do not have a good system of checks and balances and they have piss-poor fail-safes,as it stands now-AQ elements are on the verge of gaining control of Pakistan's nukes.

There are 2 ideaologies in the world today,that aim to destroy democracy and freedom,that being Islam and communism. Despite Russia and China's appearance of being democratic,they are in fact-still in the grip of hard-line commies,they have a mutual defense pact,against the US and the Free World,and both of them,are building nbc shelters,so that they can survive our counter-attack,after they attack us first with nukes.

So put that in yer pipe and think about it,a bit.

Have a good one ...

---

Torog, I know what I wrote below is an exceptionally long read, but I'd advise you and everybody else to go through it if you really want to understand why I have such opinions regarding international conflict, and it should especially give you a much broader understanding of the threat facing us.


I think I understand where you're coming from , and I agree that those extremists must never have such weapons of mass destruction. All I'm saying is that, whether we're right to hold nukes or not, it's not realistic to have such a massive arsenal and expect such other nations to accept this as a just system. Every leader and their nation want's power and security, and when one has nuclear capabilities, all will want nuclear capabilities.

One intersting point in history to consider is the Cuban missle crisis. A lot of people look back on this as a day when communists arbitarily placed a bunch of nuclear warheads in Cuba and pointed them at the head of the United States. What most American media and (so called) historians fail to mention is that this was a tactic in direct response to a threat form America, intended to equal the playing field. The only reason it become suddenly necessary to place nukes in Cuba, right off the coast of Florida, is because only half a year earlier the United States put a bunch of nukes in Turkey pointed right at the head of Moscow, about the same distance. The nuclear arming of Cuba was actually a very proportionate response. Albeit it only compounded international tensions, and was probably not a good response, but an innevitable one nonetheless. Results are based on realism, not one-sided ideologies that see the power balances as they should be.

Furtheremore, I by no means believe we should "disarm" ourselves as you seem to think I was proposing. I only think we should minimize our nuclear arsenal to a few weapons tucked away just in case, and perfect our anti-nuclear defense system. Holding thousands of nuclear weapons and telling our enemies not to is obviously not a realistic request, and will only compound enemy propoganda that the west is an institution of hypocracy and a dangerous threat. Believe me, almost all terrorists organizations are filled with a majority of people who hate the west not because they "hate freedom" as we're propogandized to believe, but because they've been propogandized and conditioned since birth to believe that the west is a great satanic threat out to conquere and destroy the muslim way of life.

I half agree with your assesment of the 2 powers that threaten freedom, that being communism and islam, and would actually add a 3rd, that being totalitarianism.

Islam itself is not the sole threat comprising terrorism, it's more the recent extremist movement within islam that established sharia law in the late 1940's and sought to bring about the end of days fortold in the holy texts. There is indeed a huge movement of Muslim extremists seeking to bring about this apocalyptic outcome, but I know there are many muslims who want to live regular lives, hold down a job, and support their families like the rest of us. My dad actually had a friend who was from an Islamic branch from Africa that has several million followers. It's philosophy is strongly in support of perpetuating islam as a religion of peace, and spreading it throughout the world by example of universal peace, love, and compassion for all humanity. They believe that Jihad must be strictly forbidden, and that god can only be spread through love.
In fact, Islam does forbit Jihad and posits that war is only acceptable in self-defence. The extremists has twisted this into poor U.S. foreign economic and political policy, as well as western decedence, as a supposed "threat" to Islam as a whole, and therefor justifying Jihad as a form of "self defense", which is a load of crap.

Communism is a bit of an iffy one.
Russia seems to have not recovered since establishing a democratic society, and communism is once again growing in popularity. They still have the second most powerfull military (at least in supplies) in the world, and seem hellbent on maintaining it no matter what the cost. Both Russia and China have been caught with several spies in our countries as of late, and have been supplying the Iranian's (and possibly syrians) with huge armaments of weapons while making a nice profit themselves. Though while both employ communistic aspects in their social ideology, both are still pretty far from a true view of actual communism. Rather, I'd call China a totalitarian fascist government with state-centered capitalism, and Russia... that one's a bit more hazy, but definately Totalitarian at least. Cuba I'm pretty sure is content to be an isolated dictatorship with no interest in internation conflicts or conquestion these days, and as far as dictators go I'd say Castro is one of the better ones (but, like I said, that's as far as dictators go).
North Korea.... well Kim Jon Ill and his government are just damn insane, probably one of the biggest threats to democracy and human life in general. I don't blame the North Korean people at all, those poor people live under one of the most brutal and suppressive dictatorships in human history. North Korea could only be called communist in that everybody is kept equally poor, isolated, and starving unless they enlist in the military (1/3 of the population is enlisted for that reason). I think if anything North Korea would supply the majority, if not all of their nuclear weapons to Iran. And while Western power are struggling to keep their middle estern conflicts under control, NK will sweep in for South Korea and finally take it as they intended. Japan would most likely be next, and with such power further conquest would be limitless.

This is just one of the reaon's I disagree with the Iraq war. While Saddam was unfriendly to the US, he was rather isolationist and even more unfriendly to middle-estern powers such as Iran and would have been helpfull in keeping them in check, simply as an enemy of our enemy. Now we have far too many resources devoted to a needless war while real immediate threats such as Syria, Iran, North Korea, and possibly Russia and China are at our doorstep. Even if we win Iraq, all it will accomplish is a democracy held together by a weak military that will have no more ability to stand against the Iranian threat than Saddam's regime.

You have a good one as well my friend.

I think you sumed it up pretty squarely. The main instigator in Jihadism is US foriegn policy. Support of Isreal, troops in Muslim lands, support of dictatorial leaders, propping up the Saudi royals, Stealing the resourses, (the people don't see any of the oil money, only the opressive leaders). If you looked at the US from their perspective, you would probably feel the same way, Don't forget, these Jihadists are for the most part extremely poor and desperate, so their life doesn't seem like much compared to the rewards of martyrdom. Hell, 72 Virgins sounds like a lot of work to me, but to a desparate poor person, it probably sounds pretty good!

The interesting thing about the U.S. supporting Israel is that it was both the right and wrong thing to do. When Israel was first established, it was to give the Jews their own nation where they could safely steer clear of persecution and atrocities like the concentration camps. I absolutely support the notion. However how was awful, an atrocity of another great proportion commited against the Arabs when several hundred thousand were evicted from their legally owned land to make room for the Jews, not to mention siezing mass amounts of farm land and other private properties owned for many generations. Their justification of course was that the jews technically had it first, some-odd 1 and a half thousand years ago, but if we stole the land out from under anybody who lived where another ancestor used to, the whole world would be uprooted. And so because of the stupid means by which the Jew's new nation was formed, we have terrible conflict and civilian casualties to this day. I guess few people think ahead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zimzum

I rest comfortably because I know the terrorist have not won. When someone such as you and others go on a rant about an Iranian threats or extremest threats they have won. They caused you to fear there tactic of terror. If you do not fear these people they are no different then IMO early American colonist. We fought off the British and there tyrant rule on us.. Can not they feel the same way about US foreign policy? Whats right for you and me might not be right to them. So they fight for there beliefs.

I believe "we" as humans, not because of religious or political teaching should stand up for each other. End more important things in this world like starvation, genocide, racism, greed. Once those issues are met there will be allot less hatred in this world and more reason for peace. Simply throwing more war on top of war will only compound our currently overlooked issues.

---

Howdy Zimzum,

Of course the terrorists have not won,because we have chosen to fight them and kill them,I have no fear of them,I'm filled with a terrible resolve,instead..they best fear me and my fellow soldiers,who are not beguilled by their lies and propaganda,as you and yer fellow 5th columnists are,and whom spend their waking hours,coming up with apologies and means of appeasing them.

Nope,they can't feel the same way about US foreign policy,when what they offer,is brutal tryanny,if successful. What did the American colonist offer ? Individual rights,liberty,justice and a Constitutional Republic..there is no room for such,under Islamic law.

I see that yer one of them folks,who think that we must ignore an attack on our own soil,and solve all other problems first,before we hold the attackers accountable for their actions.

Have a good one ...

Howdy mr.devious,

I appreciate yer considered reply.

If our nuclear armed enemies have such good intentions,as you seem to suggest,then they should draw down their nuclear stockpiles first..while you may be able to trust their word,I cannot..nor should the rest of the world. Their brutal histories are written in many books..what reason is there,to trust them with our lives ? Yer asking me to trust the fox in the hen-house,the wolf , in the sheep-pen.

You are making a terrible mistake,in granting them moral equivalancey with us and the Free World.

This is the extent of my trust "Trust-but verify"

This is how we gain peace "Peace-through strength "

Have a good one ...

Ps:as for NK,if they're foolish enough to attack SK,en masse..we have the means to stop that advance-dead in it's tracks,thanx to our arsenal of nuclear weapons.

Torog, I don't understand how you got that idea that I'm claiming that Iran and the likes have moral equivilancy. Iran, North Korea, and many others would undoubtedly use such weapons against many people unjustly, hence why I say they have to be stopped even it it means war. All I was saying (I don't really know how else to say it) is that from their perspective, the mass nuclear weapon's build up of the U.S. is a perfect tool for anti-western propoganda, and it's not reasonable to assume that somebody is going to disarm when you refuse to do the same. I'm not proposing leaving ourselves defenseless, I'm proposing perfectin an anti-missile defense system before scrapping our nukes, then declaring war if it is so necessary to stop a nation like I Iran from building/using them. It's not necessary to have nukes to declare war, we have some amazingly powerfull non-nuclear weapons of mass destruction that could easly whipe out a nuclear site before they see it coming, shoot down a nuclear missile before it reaches the Indian ocean, and destroy conventional military's accordingly. Troops, special forces, guided missiles, smart-bombs, fighter and bomber aircraft, espionage, artilery, battleships and coastal bombardments... these are all very effective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zimzum

Torog or anyone who wants the use of nukes I ask you to watch an old 80's movie called "The Day After". Not everyone is hell bent on wiping out our existence. Even a small scale nuclear war would have a huge environmental impact And what about the ideology that says there can be world peace? Ideology of democracy?

You and your Christian right friends can go play in the sand box with your holy war toys.

---

My mom made me watch that when I was a kid. Scared the shit out of me.