Communism

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Originally Posted by Transition Force

Eeek heavens no!

I believe in private property and the freedom to conduct my buisness as I see fit so long as I do not coerce others or cause damage to their things (without their permission)

Go libertarianism!

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Pure form of libertarian thinking is the concept of "caveat emptor" or let the buyer beware. Flat tax, or no tax, survival of the fittest.

To apply the concept of the differences between capitalism and socialism simply:

You have 10 workers being paid $10 an hour, working 10 hours a day for a 5 day period. $5000 is the weekly budget to pay those 10 workers. Let's say revenues drop and the budget is reduced to $4000. In a more free-market economy, you would lay off 2 of them. In a more socialistic economy, you would retain 1 or all workers, but reduced their salaries as well as their happiness, and those released would be let-go with all kinds of social protection, such as unemployment benefits, or job-placement. Also the government plays a bigger role in managing the entities.

However I think bong is a little misunderstanding when he says socialism doesn't work, since concepts of socialism is used in America. Subsideries, worker-protections, welfare, providing roads & services, military, even your bank account up to $100,000 is insured by the FIDC. These are socialistic protections.

More socialistic countries with a hybrid free-market thrive everywhere in the world. France, Germany, The Netherlands, Sweden, China are just a few examples.

Free market isn't necessarily the best thing, because the extreme of that would be economic anarchy. That means you have to provide for your every need with no government assistance. It wouldn't be such a bad thing if there weren't socialistic controls, but imagine economic anarchy with social suppression. The world hasn't seen this extreme yet, but with the world embracing the power of the free-market, it is bound to happen.

The best is to have a mix of the two, like America, and Switzerland.

We have a long, long way to go before we all "know the rules" and play by them... that's why communism isn't ready for the general population. If you want to see a working form of communism (albeit, with divine authority), look no further than some of the pacifist religious sects.

Communism has been tried and it simply doesn't work. At least not on a large, nation wide, scale. It could be done with a small group of like minded people, such as in a '60's style commune, but everyone participating would have to not only agree to the principle, but also agree 100% to what everyone in the society should or shouldn't have. Not many couples can achieve this goal let alone an entire country.

Contrary to what Oneironaut ,and his anarchistic dreams, believes it does go against human nature. People work in order to satisfy their wants and their needs. Those who work harder have more of those needs satified. It only makes sense. Why should person a work his ass off if he gets the same thing as person b who slacks off all day. Why should someone go to school, get an advanced degree, and become a technological innovator if, when all is said and done, he's going to get the exact same thing as the guy selling hot dogs on the street? He/she won't, it's that simple. Eventually everyone will just slack off and the society will collapse.

Unlike most of you I have actually lived in a "communist" country-China. Although in modern day China bears very little resemblance to true communism, when I lived there 10 years ago you could still see some of the negative effects. I would go into any of the state run department stores and see hundreds of people working there, and I mean hundreds. Funny thing, even with all those employees it was hard to get help. Most just sat around chatting with each other and would ignore you if you asked for help. Some would literally shoo you away. If you did manage to get someone to help they did it with a frown and as little effort as possible. Why? Because it didn't matter. If they acted that way they'd get their pay. If they busted their ass, had the best customer service, and the top sales they'd still get the same pay. Go to China now, however, and walk into any of the privately owned stores and you'll see something entirely differnt. You'll see employees jumping over each other to get to you and willing to do whatever it takes to get the sale. Why? Because there's an incentive to do so.

Bottom line: inanimate objects roll downhill. Unless there's some reward at the top of the hill, people will do the same.

THank you Fengzi.............. you put it pefect.


Why do kids these days think it can work?

They have no Idea about a free market system...........NONE.

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Originally Posted by Fengzi

I would go into any of the state run department stores and see hundreds of people working there, and I mean hundreds. Funny thing, even with all those employees it was hard to get help. Most just sat around chatting with each other and would ignore you if you asked for help. Some would literally shoo you away. If you did manage to get someone to help they did it with a frown and as little effort as possible.

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Sounds like todays Wal-Mart, Canadian Tire, Zellers, and every other big box store.

Fengzi, granted, human motivation and behavior is skewed toward external rewards and reinforcement, more money, more recognition etc. I suspect that even the large scale communist experiments caved to the simplicity of getting people (some) to do something through such devices. Capitalism resorts to the incentives bag of tricks to get people to do more, do it better, faster, and cheaper, and then do all of it all over again by outsourcing everything to capitalist start-up countries.

For what it's worth, communism and capitalism share a common problem with regard to human behavior: Neither system has figured out how to get people to do something for the intrinsic good of doing it while being a good person doing it.

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Originally Posted by graymatter

For what it's worth, communism and capitalism share a common problem with regard to human behavior: Neither system has figured out how to get people to do something for the intrinsic good of doing it while being a good person doing it.

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Agree 100%. If governments had figured that out we wouldn't have any need for religion. Then again, religion hasn't really figured that one out either.

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Originally Posted by dopesmoker

Sounds like todays Wal-Mart, Canadian Tire, Zellers, and every other big box store.

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LOL how true. Ironically, I've gotten better service in the Xiamen, China Walmart than any here in the U.S. Go figure:confused:

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Originally Posted by thcbongman

You have 10 workers being paid $10 an hour, working 10 hours a day for a 5 day period. $5000 is the weekly budget to pay those 10 workers. Let's say revenues drop and the budget is reduced to $4000. In a more free-market economy, you would lay off 2 of them. In a more socialistic economy, you would retain 1 or all workers, but reduced their salaries as well as their happiness, and those released would be let-go with all kinds of social protection, such as unemployment benefits, or job-placement. Also the government plays a bigger role in managing the entities.

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In a truly free market (one where you can make any choice you wish), that is only one scenario that is possible. But thousands of other scenarios are possible. It would be equally possible for the latter to happen. On the other hand, perhaps the managment would work on reducing workplace efficiency in other areas instead of laying off or reducing the salaries of some of their workers. And depending on who owns the place (and yes, I know this isn't realistic in the majority of situations), the owner could even decide to cut his profits in order to keep his employees well paid.

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Originally Posted by thcbongman

Free market isn't necessarily the best thing, because the extreme of that would be economic anarchy. That means you have to provide for your every need with no government assistance.

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Yes, I agree. That is what I am striving for.

Besides, as Katrina proved very, very well - Private Charities are far more effective (and generous) than the government is.

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Originally Posted by thcbongman

It wouldn't be such a bad thing if there weren't socialistic controls, but imagine economic anarchy with social suppression. The world hasn't seen this extreme yet, but with the world embracing the power of the free-market, it is bound to happen.

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Free-Staters like myself are working to get rid of those as well :rasta:

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Originally Posted by CultureCherryPopper

...but...

...power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. May not be a factual quote, but it applies none the less.

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Uhh, exactly, that's the whole point of communism. Communism is a stateless, classless society in which nobody has the power to enforce their ideas on other people. Decisions on how workplaces and societies should be run are made democratically by their members. Under capitalism you are subject to governments and bosses with the power to write the rules and tell you what to do, hence all the corruption we see.