Health Reforms

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

I do not really understand what you mean by this or what it has to do with the quote it is referencing.

"If a public option is created, that does not mean that people are going to have to give up their current insurance and go on the public plan. If you are happy with your current insurance plan, a public option is not going to effect you in any way." If your employer stops providing coverage you WILL have to give up your current coverage.

You are right dental is not included, I did not mean to write that. However, I do not understand what you mean when you say I will have to pay thousands to get on the public plan. I am well aware that it is not completely free, but I know its not going to cost thousands of dollars.

you know this?????????You better have a talk with Max Baucus then. The fine for not buying insurance if your family income is 60k is set to be about $3600

First of all, there are at least 46.3 million uninsured in this country. That is more than the combined populations of 24 smaller states. So how do you propose we get these people covered?
I don't. 12 million illegals, 10 million people that are only temporarily uninsured due to job changes or other short term circumstances. Another 6 million that choose to not take the employer plan.

It is also not going to cost trillions, it is going to cost $900 billion over the next 10 years, the majority of which will pay for itself by getting rid of wasteful medical related spending.

If you bet your life on this you will be dead. The Fed has NEVER been correct in ANY prediction of cost on anything. They have underestimated EVERY time

That is also not including the billions that are going to be saved by simply putting the uninsured on an insurance plan so that they can receive preventive care and not cost the state thousands of dollars when they end up in the ER and cant pay for it and end up in debt.

This has repeatedly been debunked. Preventive care does not save money since it is given to everybody and everybody would not come down with the illness.

Yeah, and then you go into debt. Over 60% of all the bankruptcies in America stem from medical bills. That is thousands of people who's lives are ruined because they got sick and could not afford insurance. No matter how you look at that statistic, it is fucked and at the very least a sign that something is not right with our current health care system. So yeah, nobody is going to drag you out of the ER your just going to have to spend years working to pay back the bills. I also never claimed that Emergency rooms denied people care.



Right, because the founding fathers were psychics who could read the future and know everything that this country was going to go through for the next 220 years. It is called an amendment dude.

Yes it is, I agree with you. But the Fed is not trying to amend the Constitution, they are trying to change it without an amendment.

Things change, the world evolves, and the American government needs to evolve with it. I am not gonna bash the constitution, because it is an amazing document, but it does not have all of the answers.

It has a mechanism spelled out specifically in the document to address this. It does have all the answers!!!!!

Do you think that people who are 18 should not be able to vote? Do you think you should be denied the right to vote if you cant pay a poll tax? Do you think the president should be able to run for as many terms as they want? If you said no to any of those things, you are against the constitution as it was originally framed. They are called amendments and they are what happen when our government realizes that the constitution is not perfect.

They do not just "happen", THERE IS A PROCESS SPELLED OUT IN THE CONSTITUTION. Ask yourself why they do not follow that process?



"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom."
Martin Luther king Jr.

Sounds like a mixing of church and state to me. And I am not sure I agree with it anyway.

"An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity."
Martin Luther king Jr.

This is a choice to be made by the individual, not forced upon him by some bureaucrat. That is tyranny.


"We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all
mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each
man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while
with others, the same word may mean for some men to do as they
please with other men, and the product of other men's labor. Here are
two, not only different, but incompatible things, called by the same name
- liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties,
called by two different and incompatible names - liberty and tyranny."
Abraham lincoln

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I don't agree with Abe. When the Gov't forces somebody to give up the product of their labor (money) for the benefit of "other men", THAT IS NOT LIBERTY.

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

.....this issue is kind of more important than your personal political ideology.

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one's ideology is more than a badge or banner that identifies you as being on one side or another. it is the determining factor in how you live your life and what you are willing to do for the society around you. what could be more important than how you live your life? a life of slavery, whether to another man or to the state, can never be preferred over a life of freedom. that difference is a matter of ideology, the same ideology you consider so unimportant.

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In the end,it all comes down to how you view America. Conservatives see a country where everybody looks out for themselves and the federal government does not exist. Liberals, however, understand the lessons taught to them by people like Martin Luther King Jr. and Abraham Lincoln, which is that this country cannot survive unless we look out for one another.

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so; it's rather obvious that you see the nation's compassion as flowing only from the bosom of the state. your view of american compassion as only a matter of how much we give to the government for their various do-nothing social programs is the typically narrow attitude ground into us by the liberal establishment and reinforced by a media determined to ignore the charity of the individual. last year's official tally of charitable donations was over $300 billion and that is only what is reported. that is an average of over $1,000 for each man, woman and child in the country. even as our economy came crashing down around us, we managed scrape together a higher percentage of our wealth than any other country on earth to just give away and i don't think all that giving was restricted to the liberal layabouts that love to lay claim to their compassionate attitude.

conservatives see a country where the individual is responsible for the betterment of society, where government's role is to protect the rights of its citizens so that they may be better able to build a greater society. liberals see a nation of sheep that must be forced to do what is right, where the desires of the many are empowered to infringe upon the liberty of the few.

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

You are right dental is not included, I did not mean to write that. However, I do not understand what you mean when you say I will have to pay thousands to get on the public plan. I am well aware that it is not completely free, but I know its not going to cost thousands of dollars.

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how do you figure it's not going to cost you thousands of dollars? what do you think your tax money is going to? so besides paying for yourself you'll be paying for others.

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

First of all, there are at least 46.3 million uninsured in this country. That is more than the combined populations of 24 smaller states. So how do you propose we get these people covered?

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where did you come up with this 46.3 million people? i've heard closer to 30 million and that's a high estimate. most think it's closer to 20 million. regardless of the actual number how many of those CHOOSE NOT to have insurance?

how many of those in that estimate are illegal immigrants? i know for one that i am NOT going to pay for illegal immigrants health care.

do you also not think about the fact that we only keep about 70% of our income and the rest is paid into taxes? you are okay with this? perhaps if they let us keep all of our wages they we could afford insurance?

the current bill alters the tax code so that if you don't have insurance they can fine you and put you in jail. this is the same IRS that owes back taxes. that doesn't sound like choice to me.

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

It is also not going to cost trillions, it is going to cost $900 billion over the next 10 years, the majority of which will pay for itself by getting rid of wasteful medical related spending. That is also not including the billions that are going to be saved by simply putting the uninsured on an insurance plan so that they can receive preventive care and not cost the state thousands of dollars when they end up in the ER and cant pay for it and end up in debt.

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who exaclty is gonna get rid of wasteful spending? the govt? they've done a good job of that up to this point. how can you put so much faith into a govt that obviously can't run shit right. our national budget is $4 Trillion and we are taking in $2.5 Trillion. and obama said it would be that way for at least the next four years.

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

Yeah, and then you go into debt. Over 60% of all the bankruptcies in America stem from medical bills. That is thousands of people who's lives are ruined because they got sick and could not afford insurance. No matter how you look at that statistic, it is fucked and at the very least a sign that something is not right with our current health care system. So yeah, nobody is going to drag you out of the ER your just going to have to spend years working to pay back the bills. I also never claimed that Emergency rooms denied people care.

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so why hasn't the govt stepped in before? they could have regulated the industry long ago. why now? the insurance companies have been fucking people over for years. dropping people when they get sick. refusing to pay. the govt sat idly by and let this happen because why? because those companies lobby millions if not billions.

why does america pay the most in the world for prescription medications?

they wave a bill in front of your face and you jump at it.

do you want to govt to have real-time access to your bank account? you are okay with this?

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

Right, because the founding fathers were psychics who could read the future and know everything that this country was going to go through for the next 220 years. It is called an amendment dude. Things change, the world evolves, and the American government needs to evolve with it. I am not gonna bash the constitution, because it is an amazing document, but it does not have all of the answers.

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how many amendments have we had in since the constitution?

there are 27. once which abolishes slavery. one that gave rights to women. one that allows them to collect a federal income tax. one that was for prohibition and one that repealed that amendment. there are no fewer than six that have to due with the legal process. (perhaps part of the problem in this country is that we are too litigious?)

perhaps part of the problems is that we are one of only a few countries that ELECTS judges. how much sense does that make? who do you suppose the judges back? oh yeah, the companies that donate to their campaigns?

i'd say overall that constitution is a solid document and our forefathers were smarter then than we are today. they wrote the constitution in such an open ended fashion because they KNEW it wasn't perfect and that this country would, in fact, go though growing pains if you will.

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

Do you think that people who are 18 should not be able to vote? Do you think you should be denied the right to vote if you cant pay a poll tax? Do you think the president should be able to run for as many terms as they want? If you said no to any of those things, you are against the constitution as it was originally framed. They are called amendments and they are what happen when our government realizes that the constitution is not perfect.

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you don't have to love your govt, you just have to love you country. i think you'll find that american's are finally getting tired of having the wool pulled over their eyes.

again, if the health care bill was all that it was cracked up to be it would have been passed in august. it's not and it didn't.

it's our RIGHT and DUTIY as the people to hold the govt accountable for it's actions. check the quote it my sig from the declaration of independence. it basically states that those that have the ability to change something have the RESPONSIBILITY to change it. and if we have a govt it place that no longer works for the people it is OUR job to throw off that govt and put a new govt in place for our future security.


-shake

The latest quote from the messiah

Mr. Obama said legalizing illegal immigrants is a way to take the sting out of the entire issue.

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Originally Posted by McDanger

The latest quote from the messiah

Mr. Obama said legalizing illegal immigrants is a way to take the sting out of the entire issue.

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well he can't take that and shove it right up his ass! i don't understand how we are just handing out invitations to the party. what about all the emigrants that come before them that EARNED it? why would he just wave his hand and make them legal? there is no repercussions for the billions of dollars that leave our economy every year? a lot of those people don't care about this country, they just care that it's better than theirs. isn't the money that they already get enough? hell, i can't qualify for govt programs, but they get all of it and they just keep on popping out kids. then their husbands work under the table, so no taxes are paid. and i can't get a job. then americans have the audacity to say that they are jobs that americans don't want. wrong, the fact of the matter is that the business owners would be forced to pay acceptable wages. they can't get away with low-balling people.

sorry for the rant! this shit just really pisses me off. i have nothing against emigrants that do it the RIGHT way, and come here to become AMERICANS! if you come here, you are an american first and foremost, not a mexican-american, african-american or anything else! we don't call white people european-americans. once you decide that, your loyalties lie to america (our country and no where eles. don't get this confused with our govt. i don't condone our govt in any way, shape or form. again, if your (insert emigrants country here) is so great then go the fuck back! we should buy them a one-way ticket and that's the ONLY money that illegals should EVER GET!

and by the way, in texas, where i live white people are the MINORITY! do we get any special privileges or treatments? any "equal opportunity"? yeah right!


-shake

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Originally Posted by headshake

i don't understand how we are just handing out invitations to the party.

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don't be so naive, an amnesty program has always been a part of the obama/democratic agenda. how the hell do you think these bastards managed to get such a huge chunk of the hispanic vote? an agreement between this administration and the mexican government has always been in place, even before we voted this fool into the white house, and they know that they'll soon have to live up to their end of the bargain. despite the fact that handing citizenship to illegal immigrants is the one topic against which the american people stand united, our government will still hammer an amnesty bill through whether we like it or not. poverty is the liberal establishment's greatest ally and the thought of twenty million more ignorant and impoverished voters under their thumb has them drooling like pedophiles at a nursery school. our economy being in the toilet gave them a little breathing room after the election, but not a day goes by that they aren't fine tuning another amnesty bill to give them a little more power and the rest of us a little less of everything.

british style of health system.
like where you gotta wait 8 months for keemo therapy when your termanly ill, because its rationed and your on the bottom of a list.

Obama can bite a big one.

Nothing will change, I havent noticed a change since Carter Theres always rumors that stuff will change but nothing ever does. I say this because the point in my life where I remember who the president was start with him.

The Democrats have already lost this debate pretty bad over the past 6 months. They will pay dearly in 14 months.

Tort Reform

Remove Fed Laws and open up all the states to all the insurance companies

Stay out of our lives

I voted for Obama and I made a huge mistake. I will admit that right now....so I aplogize. It's been one screw up after another.