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If you believe the GOP lies about how health care will be worse, I'll sell you the Golden Gate Bridge....cheap.
Health care is the next looming bubble that will let the rich redistribute money from poor and middle class to their pockets.
The past eight years have been nothing but lies, torture, illegal spying, wars based on ego, and rich getting richer and bailed out after they lost our money. Wake up, these are the same people who profit from our loss, you can't believe their lies.
i found it interesting that 1% of the country has 50% of the wealth. time for a revolution!
-shake
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Originally Posted by eastbaygordo
that's why we can't trust them to run health care, lol, they're all nothing
more than prostitutes in suits, Obama included!
First of all, you obviously did not read any of the information which you asked for and I provided for you. If government involvement in the health care system leads to private insurance companies going out of business, then how come the Netherlands have such a thriving private insurance industry? I do not know how to have a debate about this subject if you are not going to actually look at the facts that I provide and offer some sort of rational counter argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
You are really going to have to come up with something better than this. This is just a video of soundbites from "Ronald Reagan speaks out against socialized medicine" imposed over an Obama town hall meeting. Now I have already listened to the entire album before and everything he says is just reused republican talking points that have been debunked for decades. Ronald Reagan is one of the most twisted, horrible motherfuckers to ever walk this planet and the economic reforms he put in place are still fucking this country over. Now I have already addressed most of his points in my previous post but if there is anything in particular you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
The first thing I want to make clear is that the current legislation proposed by Obama is not perfect. I myself have some problems with it and am not opposed to taking a little more time and working out the details. If we are going to have real health care reform in this country it is going to need to be done right or not at all. So as it stands right now, I agree with many of the progressive congressman opposing the current plan because it is not substantial enough. I will also not even attempt to defend some of these "blue dogs" who are impeding the process not out of any rational disagreement with the plan, but simply because their election campaigns were funded with millions of dollars in insurance money.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
What is important to remember is that the current health care reforms are not going to turn us into Canada. Obama is not going to outlaw private medical practices. We are not all going to have to be on a government health care plan. If you want to pay to see a doctor sooner that is perfectly possible. Now on my previous post I posted a similar story about a Canadian in need of an MRI who received it within a perfectly reasonable amount of time. I also made it clear in my previous posts that these systems are not perfect. No government is going to be able to provide world class health care whenever anyone needs it, for free. When you are giving an entire country free health care there are obviously going to be waiting periods. There are only so many doctors. However, I will admit that I do feel sympathy for this man and his situation. I also wont deny that this is an example of how the Canadian health care system is not perfect. But this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Canadian citizens are capable of visiting a doctor without ridiculous waiting lists for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
I don't even know what you want me to say about this because there are so many elements about this video that are total bullshit. But I guess I will try.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
1. Nothing that happens in this video doesn't happen in America.
2. I am sure people who cannot afford medical care do not have a problem waiting a few hours considering if they didn't have government care they would "never" see a doctor.
3. These guys bitch about not being being able to get a blood test for no reason.
4. They go to a gigantic hospital on a "Sunday" and are surprised when they have to wait in line for a few hours.
5. The hundreds and hundreds of Canadians commenting about how they have never experienced anything like what happens to this guy.
This dudes a fucking moron. If there is any particular point you want me to address, let me know because this guy has no idea what hes talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
I have a great deal of respect for Ron Paul and I agree with many of his policies and ideas but I obviously disagree with him in regard to what form of government best suits this country. You picked a really bad segment with him because all the points he makes I have already addressed in one way or another. I am really disappointed to see Ron Paul spouting out talking points like this and kind of wish I had never seen this clip.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
The democrats holding up the process aren't real democrats. They are pro-business moderates whose campaigns were funded by insurance companies. Regardless of how "good" the reforms are they are not going to vote for it because if they do, they don't get reelected. As for the progressives who are against the bill I have already said that I agree with many of their complaints and have no problem with them taking the time to produce a truly comprehensive reform deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by headshake
apparently your mind is made up so there is no need confusing you
with the facts.
you go drink your kool-aid and we'll stop socialized health care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramulux
I'm just trying to have some sort of debate about socialized medicine and I have offered up responses to your statements and examples. Show me the facts you speak of and I can actually give some sort of response to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherbozo
what? every democrat got campaign funds from somebody with an agenda. so we just get to pick and choose who is a "real" democrat? well if that's the case, from everything i've heard, barack has had nothing to do with the bill besides saying that he will support it. he's not been responsible for anything in the bill. how many pages is it? like 2000 or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramulux
can you please explain to me what a real democrat is? are they they ones who vote for bailing out large corporations with our tax dollars?
we need less government not more. currently the us is ranked 37th by the WHO on it's list of health care systems. right between costa rica and slovenia. what do you think this legislation will do to those statistics?
we are 24th in life expectancy. i believe that we are already second on the list of total health expenditure as a percent of the GDP, around 15%.
and supposedly we have the best healthcare system in the world. i hate to see what happens when the govt get's involved.
since they are taking away the incentive to be a doctor (capping pay) do you think this might have a negative impact on medicine here? perhaps they will go to other countries to practice medicine?
who's gonna pay for this? $900 billion over 10 years? supposedly there is 2/3 already accounted for by drug companies and the like. we are already in the whole. let's see the budget was, what, $4 trillion and we brought in $2.5 trillion. and barack said that it would be this way for at least the next four years. so how does this work out?
they plan on taxing small business, right? i heard the tax rate in new york was going to be 57%. (sorry, just the only figure i've heard.) so how is this good for america? isn't small business the backbone of america? we won't save them, but we save big business? why? because they are too big to fail? c'mon now. that's how capitalism works right? if you have no money you go bankrupt.
we aren't supposed to look at this as "socialized" medicine. yet they are going to fine you and throw your in jail if you don't get coverage?
well, the govt now owns 80% of AIG after giving them $85 billion (i think). the govt took over AIG with emergency powers from the GREAT DEPRESSION, over 70 years ago.
the govt owns 60% of GM.
they own numerous percentages of many banks after the "bailout" bill passed. i'm sure there is many more. they can give money to whomever they want, for whatever they want in return and don't have to tell you about any of it. the govt gave out over $800 billion in small bailouts before the "bailout" bill passed. who got that money?
the govt lied about what they were going to do with the bailout money. the original plan called for the buying of toxic assests from financial institutions "right now". once the bill passed, and the authority had been granted, the Treasurey postponed and then scrapped that plan.
the govt took over freddie mac and fannie mae, without congressional approval might i add.
sorry for the rambling there, my point is that the govt cannot be trusted. this is obvious. i think people are using the health care bill as a platform to fight against. (not those dems trying to get re-elected (including obama).) i think people are tired of being lied to and taken advantage of.
what's taken us so long to get around to healthcare anyway? how long have we been the only industrialized country to not have it? all of a sudden it's a priority.
-shake
you're wasting your time shake, this guy has already made up his mind!
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Originally Posted by headshake
It is not about getting to pick and choose,its about acknowledging which democrats stick to their beliefs and which ones do not. In the same way, you probably don't support everyone in the republican party I do not support everyone in the democratic party.Quote:
Originally Posted by headshake
Now listen I am not going to get into a discussion about the bailouts because we probably agree that they were a huge mistake. That money was pretty much stolen from us and handed over to the federal reserve, I am well aware of that. Being pissed off about the bailouts has nothing to do with the left or right. Providing insane amounts of money to the companies which caused all the economic problems is a bad idea regardless of where you are on the political spectrum. Any congressman or senator who voted for those bailouts are traitors to their respective political parties.
Dude, those are all examples of how our health care system as it exists right now is fucked. Those are statistics describing our "current" health care system, not what would happen if we went to a single payer system. If the government provided a public option it would revolutionize the health care industry. It would create real competition and force the insurance companies to adapt to reality. If we do not create a public option there will always be a significant percentage of our population without access to basic medical care.Quote:
Originally Posted by headshake
Private insurance companies do the exact same thing. If a doctor submits a claim for insurance reimbursement they are paid according to the pay rates set forth by the insurance company. That is all the government is doing. These rates put forth by the government are also generally in line with the standard market cost for health care services.Quote:
Originally Posted by headshake
Like you said, 2/3 is already paid for and the other third is gonna be spread out over ten years. So that is $300 billion for the most comprehensive social reform in our history. A reform that is going to provide every child born in this country with the ability to go to the doctor regardless of their parents income bracket. That is a beautiful fucking thing and you are bitching about $300 billion. We just had over a trillion dollars literally stolen from us in these bailouts. That is a trillion dollars that none of us are ever going to get back. But now we have a chance to spend $300 billion on something that is going to benefit millions and millions of people in profound ways, and you have a problem with that. The tax increases that have been proposed so far do not effect anyone making less than $350,00 a year and are pretty minor.Quote:
Originally Posted by headshake
This proposal you are talking about has nothing to do with small businesses. This would impose a surtax of 1% on couples making $350,00 to $500,000, 1.5% between $500,000 and $1 million, and 5% for couples making over $1 million. This is also just a proposal and it was introduced a while ago so I do not think it ended up turning into anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by headshake
I had also heard about how Massachusetts had begun fining residents for not purchasing health care, but that is under the current private system. However, I had not heard that you would be fined if you did not accept coverage with the public option. I do not really see how that would work but if you could provide some sources I would appreciate it because I cannot find any information about this.
have you read the bill? it's over 2000 pages long. and i heard about the new york tax for example the day that the president gave his speech about the healthcare reforms.
by the way, i'm not democrat or republican. i'm a best person for the job man.
if they fucked up the economy why do you think they can fix health care? look at the post office for example. the post office is nothing but a money drain. they are trying to take another day of the week off. and even with every law they want/need on their side the post office can't compete with ups or fedex (which are both profitable by the way).
do we need health care reforms, of course, but that's not the way to do it. i bet you also believe that the govt will sell their stock in the companies it bailed out too?
if you think shit's not about to hit the fan and you want to live in a world full of dillusions fine.
you probably don't believe that the barack administration wants to station 400,000 troops on the streets of the us. you can check it out here.
-shake