Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
haven't done much research on this but this is how I understand it
the people who worked for ACORN in registering new voters in poor communities padded their registration numbers so they would get paid more money at the end of the day, which is somewhat understandable since many of them came from the same communities and probably need the extra cash. while this is definitely fudging their new registrants numbers it isn't considered voter fraud until someone actually tries to vote using these fake names, and if they did it to get more money I very highly doubt anyone will try to even use them making their potential impact on the election almost nothing
as for Ayers, Rezko, Wright and maybe others whose names I've forgotten
so the fuck what?
I hear this come up everywhere nowadays and I have to know this, how exactly does an association with these people, however major or minor that association was, influence the decisions or policies of a potentially Obama administration?
because honestly I'm dying to know, what specifically does anybody think will happen that will honestly have any impact on the lives of Americans through an association with these people? do you think he will include them in his cabinet to help make all his decisions? will he try to appoint one of them to the Supreme Court or other government offices? will he grant them favors and abuse his power? will he pardon them should any of them get caught with their hand in the cookie jar?
how exactly have these people influenced him to the point that he is forever stained by their radical beliefs and would make decisions that would fall in with these beliefs that will effect the rest of America?
and don't give me some bullshit that it affects his integrity or image, because image and perception can be bought through the media, as for a problem with his integrity, well... integrity and politician shouldn't even be in the same sentence in the first place
this is nothing but guilt by association, but I guess at this point it's all the McCain supporters have
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
Here's the reel clip of a spokesman of the black panthers commenting on the weather underground.
They didn't say they were dangerous.. they said they were culturistic in that the leaders take their people into situations to where they will be massacred. There was a slew of other comments the Panthers guy said that were far from good.
YouTube - Black Panthers on the Weather Underground
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
Quote:
Originally Posted by issachar
as for Ayers, Rezko, Wright and maybe others whose names I've forgotten
so the fuck what?
I hear this come up everywhere nowadays and I have to know this, how exactly does an association with these people, however major or minor that association was, influence the decisions or policies of a potentially Obama administration?
Sigh, that's just it. Individually these people mean nothing. When William Wright first came on the scene.. I gave Obama a free pass because we all have someone crazy in our lives. Then came Ayers, Rezko, Chris Dodd, Jim Johnson, and the list continues on and on...
Individually they mean nothing. Combined they show a history of extremely poor judgement.
It is this poor judgement and decision making that is the problem; not so much the individuals themselves.
And contrary to popular belief.. Obama wouldn't be strong on the Economy (neither would McCain). So really what does Obama have left?
Health care? Sorry I'm not for socialized Health Care, at the same time I could care less about McCains plan either. They're both pretty crappy if you ask me.
Taxation? Up until recently Obama planned to raise taxes on incomes 200k and above (maybe it was 250k) which would include many small businesses. Recently (I believe yesterday) he said he plans to now give them tax breaks that would be immediatley available. This is after he caught flak for his tax plan.
There are many reasons that people do not like Obama and it's those same reasons that Obama only has a single digit lead.
Zogby International
Presidential poll tracker - USATODAY.com
Obama's lead is not that great.
In either case; I'm sorry you feel people are picking on poor old Obama, but I assure you that if you looked beyond the surface of things you would find that it is not the case.
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
I agree, Ayers should be in prison. He broke some serious work and endangered lives. But he isn't. Bush (yup, bringing in bush) should also be in prison, or at least impeached, for falsifying evidence against Iraq (dont gimme that "bad intellogence" bullshit either). The point is, theres tooooooo many people that should be in jail that aren't, refer to this whole bailout situation and how we PAY the people who fucked us.
As for the tax plan, its nothing but he said she said anymore. Obama says he'll raise taxes for people who make 250k or more a year, give back to us who make 150k or less, and nothing for the in between. He claims most small businesses fall into in between. I'm willing to believe that. McCain just keeps saying Obama's gonna raise your taxes, which just isn't true. Also, now there's the Troopergate thing, which isn't gonna go anywhere because no one wants to think she could actually be spiteful and vengeful.
Personally, I'd probably pick Ayers if he ran for President than Palin if she ever did. Having her anywhere even within a mile of the White House is honestly terrifying to me. I think Sarah Palin will do far worse for the world at large than any of these other politicians, maybe even in history, and it seems like a lot of Americans are hoping it happens too. She really has nothing to offer. But yeah, I digressed a bit there.
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Sigh, that's just it. Individually these people mean nothing. When William Wright first came on the scene.. I gave Obama a free pass because we all have someone crazy in our lives. Then came Ayers, Rezko, Chris Dodd, Jim Johnson, and the list continues on and on...
Individually they mean nothing. Combined they show a history of extremely poor judgement.
It is this poor judgement and decision making that is the problem; not so much the individuals themselves.
I think you're jumping the gun a little in saying poor judgment, there is alot of spin from both sides that it may be years before we ever know the full extent of his involvement with these people and how close he was to them, but I'll bite and say that yes, it probably was poor judgment on his part. Then again hindsight is always 20/20, at the time he probably wasn't considering running for president and didn't believe it would come back to haunt his campaign. Also who's to say that he didn't learn from his (maybe) mistakes?
But even with his poor judgment and decision making abilities it's not as if he would make all the decisions by himself, a president has his cabinet, staff, and any number of advisors that would specialize in different segments of the government and give their opinion on any major decision a president would have to make, and a good president would take that advice into consideration. At least that is how I understand it to work.
If you find a persons judgment and decision making that important then you might want to look closer at McCain, he was a POW for 5 years and tortured (probably) daily for a good deal of that time. By the time he came back to the states he couldn't lift his arms above his head and his hair had turned white. You can't go through that kind of experience and come back the same person you once where, none of us have any idea of the kind of things that he might have seen. I'm positive that to this day he suffers from at least one kind of mental disorder, but of course we can't be sure since he hasn't released his medical reports. His "erratic" behavior and some reports of "extreme rage", along with the increasingly nasty way his campaign has been conducting itself just reinforce it in my eyes. Either McCain has developed a win at all costs mentality, or his campaign managers have convinced him that this is the way he would win, which just makes me believe he's susceptible to manipulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
And contrary to popular belief.. Obama wouldn't be strong on the Economy (neither would McCain). So really what does Obama have left?
I think you're right that both of them aren't strong on the economy, but when something like this happens the incumbent party is the one that takes the fall, even if they're weren't totally responsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Health care? Sorry I'm not for socialized Health Care, at the same time I could care less about McCains plan either. They're both pretty crappy if you ask me.
Again I think you're right, though I do believe the government should try to help provide coverage for low income families, but that's a different debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Taxation? Up until recently Obama planned to raise taxes on incomes 200k and above (maybe it was 250k) which would include many small businesses. Recently (I believe yesterday) he said he plans to now give them tax breaks that would be immediatley available. This is after he caught flak for his tax plan.
I also think the majority of people who make the 250k a year are small businesses as well, other than high ranking corporate positions I know of no jobs that pay a salary of 250k+ a year to a single person. What bothered me about his tax plan was that he never specified if these new taxes would be applied to gross income, meaning the total amount of income a small business would make, or net income of the business owner after they paid their employees along with all the taxes required; a higher tax on gross income could very easily cost many jobs. Either way this country is too deep in the hole to cut taxes for anyone I'm afraid, maybe now politicians will take a closer look at the amount of money possible with full legalization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Exactly, there are enough issues that people can take to both sides which is why I'm annoyed whenever people try to play the guilt by association game. As for polls people can argue whether or not their techniques are still relevant, but in general I think they are fairly reliable, but the electoral college decides who wins and they don't always go with the popular vote. I like to look at the swing state map on politico every few days to see how the polls for each state are doing; up until a few weeks ago both McCain and Obama were nearly dead even in predicted electoral votes, but after the economy started falling nearly every state on McCains side has leaned to Obama.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
In either case; I'm sorry you feel people are picking on poor old Obama, but I assure you that if you looked beyond the surface of things you would find that it is not the case.
I found that somewhat condescending but whatever it isn't a big deal.
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
The man should be in jail. The only reason he is not in jail with his buddies is because he got off on a legal technicality. I'm sorry, but Charles Manson hasn't killed anyone in over 30 years (to my knowledge). Does he deserve a second chance?
I hate the argument that it's ok because he hasn't done it in 30 years. If the man were in jail no one would be saying that. The audacity of what he did would be amplified for the simple fact that he would be in jail. It's gives false perception that "it's ok" that he was a terrorist over 30 years ago.
Guess what, it's really not OK. And the fact that Obama is friends with him is not the root of the problem. It's that what kind of message does it send across when he says he's tough on terrorism but then he's friends with a former terrorist.
Here are full quotes from the pbs website which has the interview in it's entirety
"Bill Ayers: Iâ??ve thought about this a lot. Being almost 60, itâ??s impossible to not have lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of things, but the question of did we do something that was horrendous, awful?â?¦ I donâ??t think so. I think what we did was to respond to a situation that was unconscionable.
Two thousand people a day were being murdered in Vietnam in a terrorist war, an official terrorist warâ?¦ This was what was going on in our names. So we tried to resist it, tried to fight it. Built a huge mass movement, built a huge organization, and still the war went on and escalated. And every day we didnâ??t stop the war, two thousand people would be killed. I donâ??t think what we did was extremeâ?¦. We didnâ??t cross lines that were completely unacceptable. I donâ??t think so. We destroyed property in a fairly restrained level, given what we were up against. "
Independent Lens . THE WEATHER UNDERGROUND . Exclusive Interview | PBS
I posted that because it's an actual quote from him and not a tidbit like in the times piece, but here's the times piece:
No Regrets for a Love Of Explosives; In a Memoir of Sorts, a War Protester Talks of Life With the Weathermen - New York Times
In addition other radical groups at the time wanted nothing to do with the Weather Underground. The Black Panthers for instance, whom the weatherunderground thought they were friends with have been quoted as saying that they were immature and a dangerous group.
There's an entire news reel clip of this on the documentary "Weather Underground". I suggest anyone who wants to know more about Ayers and the organization he was a part of to go out and watch it. You can view it streaming on Netflix.
Anyway point being this. Ayers was a terrorist, nothing will ever change this fact nor the fact that he should be in jail along with Bernadine Dorn. His other partners in crime are. If he were then no one would be protecting him as they are today. The impact of what he did would ring across America simply because he would be behind bars, but because he's not people feel that he deserves a second chance. What about all of his comrades that are in jail. Do they deserve a second chance?
I'm sure you do thorough background checks on anyone you associate with. Never know in this day and age who's considered a terrorist.
This argument is absurd on all levels. But, if you want to say this shows a major lapse of judgment, then what about McCain and the Keating 5? Just because he got let go doesn't mean that he wasn't guilty of associating with the other scandalous senators.
I guess it's just not that political since it's easy to find out everything you want about the Keating 5, but Obama-Ayers is a mystery so it's more appealing.
Especially to attack-dog politicians.
Oh, by the way, I may support Obama but I'm still skeptical about any controversy either candidate has. I always want proof, not conjecture.
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMartinez
I'm sure you do thorough background checks on anyone you associate with. Never know in this day and age who's considered a terrorist.
Well considering that none of my friends or people I know are WELL KNOWN terrorists.. No I don't. You're right, but again There's a difference between a self acknowledged terrorist and someone hiding in the shadows. I'm not sure how you were trying to argue your point with this statement.
Quote:
This argument is absurd on all levels. But, if you want to say this shows a major lapse of judgment, then what about McCain and the Keating 5? Just because he got let go doesn't mean that he wasn't guilty of associating with the other scandalous senators.
Let's use people on cannabis.com in the legal forum as an example of poor judgement. "Should I drive with weed in my car?".... "Should I hire a lawyer?"... "Should I be driving while smoking at the same time.". Example of time after time of bad judgement. Sorry, but if you choose bad person after bad person to enter your life and then choose to leave them there then you are just asking for trouble. It doesn't mean that you yourself are a bad person, just pretty darn stupid for keeping them in your life.
And you're right, it doesn't mean anything just because he was let go. Maybe Obama should bring that up.
I get the sense that between this post and your post on the other thread that you are taking this personally. If you are and you continue you can't blame me if I decide to have a little fun with you. Keep it up ;)
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I guess it's just not that political since it's easy to find out everything you want about the Keating 5, but Obama-Ayers is a mystery so it's more appealing.
Which brings to question.. Why is it a mystery. Why would something so seemingly innocent have to be kept under wraps.
And again, how can you be tough on terrorism and yet be friends with a terrorist.
Probably more bothersome to me is that you defending an unrepentant terrorist, but that is neither for this thread nor these forums probably. I just feels it reflects on you poorly. However you're not running for any office so I could care less ;)
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Especially to attack-dog politicians.
Oh, by the way, I may support Obama but I'm still skeptical about any controversy either candidate has. I always want proof, not conjecture.
Could've fooled me with your eagerness to defend a man without seeming to investigate any of the controversy surrounding him. Your arguments are weak and give the impression that you support Obama regardless of what questionable acts may arise.
Blind faith in democratic leadership.
You can say you want proof, but fact is that it doesn't matter what argument or evidence that's brought to light.. you will run to defend Obama. You have done it in just about every thread that might have something negative to say about him.
I on the other hand have called McCain a bumbling fool on several occassions.
Contrary to what you may want to believe I am not really bias'd. My candidate didn't win the major Ticket. I'll be hoping he chooses to run in 2012.
I'll be looking forward to your next defense for Obama. They amuse me :hippy:
Quote:
"NO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT ABOUT OBAMA!!!"
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
99% of politicians are criminals.
Most of them just haven't been caught yet.........
This election is doomed
Invest in soup
This blunts 4 you :tin foil hat:
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Well considering that none of my friends or people I know are WELL KNOWN terrorists.. No I don't. You're right, but again There's a difference between a self acknowledged terrorist and someone hiding in the shadows. I'm not sure how you were trying to argue your point with this statement.
I was trying to say that as far as terrorist connections go, this is one incident that, to me, looks like one of those random relationships that come and go through life. The ACORN group is corrupt, no doubt, but they're not terrorists (in the modern sense of the word).
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Let's use people on cannabis.com in the legal forum as an example of poor judgement. "Should I drive with weed in my car?".... "Should I hire a lawyer?"... "Should I be driving while smoking at the same time.". Example of time after time of bad judgement. Sorry, but if you choose bad person after bad person to enter your life and then choose to leave them there then you are just asking for trouble. It doesn't mean that you yourself are a bad person, just pretty darn stupid for keeping them in your life.
Are you referring to the trifecta of Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright and ACORN? You're right, these are suspicious connections. Hell, maybe Obama is a bit naive about the people around him. He'd almost have to be if he's really as hopeful as he makes himself out to be. At least he seems whip smart on law and government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
And you're right, it doesn't mean anything just because he was let go. Maybe Obama should bring that up.
I don't think he will because while he's leading in the polls the way he is, he has no need to resort to such volatile tactics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
I get the sense that between this post and your post on the other thread that you are taking this personally. If you are and you continue you can't blame me if I decide to have a little fun with you. Keep it up ;)
I'm sorry. I sometimes get angry in debates. I can be really impatient sometimes, so I end up making a fool of myself. One thing McCain and I have in common lol Other than that, I just like a good argument, no matter what subject it is. It's a great opportunity to learn, and from arguing with you, I've learned a lot about this election.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Which brings to question.. Why is it a mystery. Why would something so seemingly innocent have to be kept under wraps.
And again, how can you be tough on terrorism and yet be friends with a terrorist.
Probably more bothersome to me is that you defending an unrepentant terrorist, but that is neither for this thread nor these forums probably. I just feels it reflects on you poorly. However you're not running for any office so I could care less ;)
You're right, I'd like to know the truth of these connections to Ayers as well. I don't think we ever will, though, because there's too much bias on both sides to decide what really happened. And, looking at the evidence you gave, it looks like Ayers is an unrepentant terrorist. Oh well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
Could've fooled me with your eagerness to defend a man without seeming to investigate any of the controversy surrounding him. Your arguments are weak and give the impression that you support Obama regardless of what questionable acts may arise.
Blind faith in democratic leadership.
I don't know what I'm going to do this election. The democratic process seems pretty fucked at this point. It's hard to get over the emotions Obama's speeches stirred up in me, though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
You can say you want proof, but fact is that it doesn't matter what argument or evidence that's brought to light.. you will run to defend Obama. You have done it in just about every thread that might have something negative to say about him.
I on the other hand have called McCain a bumbling fool on several occassions.
Contrary to what you may want to believe I am not really bias'd. My candidate didn't win the major Ticket. I'll be hoping he chooses to run in 2012.
I'll be looking forward to your next defense for Obama. They amuse me :hippy:
I'd defend McCain if I saw hot threads about controversies around him. I think he's safe for awhile, though.
And cool, life would be shit without a good laugh :D
By the way, look! I figured out the multi-quote! *gasp*
Barack Obama's Involvement with ACORN
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeMartinez
By the way, look! I figured out the multi-quote! *gasp*
I love the multi quote. It makes addressing issues point by point so much easier and less chance of confusion between posts when discussing something with a person.
Make good use of it! I love it. :thumbsup:
