Iran slams Obama's nuclear vow as 'unacceptable'
lol calm down dude, its a debate not a fight here. Alright lets see here:
"So the question is in knowing this.. do you please that crazy fanatical 10-20%... or do you try to please the majority 80% and then try to combat the terrorism?"
If you were referring to the 80 percentile to be Americans then sure, but essentially we're talking about a foreign country. Who cares if 80 percent want change. If they want it then their either gonna have to go through bloodshed or deal with it. I don't wanna have to suffer because some poor people in Iran thousands of miles away are suffering.
"Secondly.. you are seriously overthinking the situation. Car bombs, Soldiers getting scared and acting rash. Aren't you getting detailed. A little too detailed. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk... Meaning a course of action has to be determined first before you can start thinking as far forward as you are."
You're right in the sense that I'm acting a little presumpious considering no course of action has yet to be taken but the way things are looking one can certainly say that it is in the realm of possibilities. Depending on what happens depends on what it will be like you're right, however, someone who is intelligent will at least attempt to draw out all of the likely scenarios as to plan ahead to make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible. I'm not saying its definitive but thats just one of the likely scenarios that could unfold as time progresses.
"First off I never suggested that we go to War with Iran. Obviously, if you've been reading ANY of my posts, I have personal reason for NOT wanting the US to invade Iran."
Oh really? So then please enlighten everyone on this forum as to how America could possibly put a Shah in place when there is already a government set in place that will do everything in their best interest to stay in power. I mean there's a possibility to avoid a war, but it's going to be very hard and more than likely there's gonna be some conflict going on over there involving some bloodshed.
"Lastly, if you've read any of my posts you'll know I do NOT support Barack Obama."
Lastly, I never said you were a supporter of Obama I was just pointing this out to the other members who were supporters of him.
Iran slams Obama's nuclear vow as 'unacceptable'
[quote=Dream of the iris]
Quote:
lol calm down dude, its a debate not a fight here. Alright lets see here:
I wasn't aware I wasn't calm or fighting. Please let me know your technique to determine a persons demeanor across the internet as you seem to have mastered it. Yes that was sarcasm.
Quote:
If you were referring to the 80 percentile to be Americans then sure, but essentially we're talking about a foreign country. Who cares if 80 percent want change. If they want it then their either gonna have to go through bloodshed or deal with it. I don't wanna have to suffer because some poor people in Iran thousands of miles away are suffering.
Why would I be talking about 80 percent of americans when we are obviously talking about Iran. I never said that we should go to war with Iran. If that remark wasn't directed at me then why quote it? Maybe I misunderstand your intentions but it seems that you are implying that I think we should go to war when I've said the opposite.
Quote:
You're right in the sense that I'm acting a little presumpious considering no course of action has yet to be taken but the way things are looking one can certainly say that it is in the realm of possibilities. Depending on what happens depends on what it will be like you're right, however, someone who is intelligent will at least attempt to draw out all of the likely scenarios as to plan ahead to make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible. I'm not saying its definitive but thats just one of the likely scenarios that could unfold as time progresses.
Actually with the way that things are going I would say it is probably one of the least likely possibilities. We've just pseudo gotten out of war. George W. Bush has the longest disapproval rating ever in the history of the office. Combine that with a Democrat controlled House, massive amount of debt and the amount of military we would have to redeploy and I would say it's a safe bet that we will not go to war with Iran. Especially when there is still a mess in Iraq.
No candidate is going to make a decision right now in regards to Iran. It's too early for them to take a definitive stance on the matter. With a general population who is tired of the war in Iraq I would have to say that whoever is elected is going to opt to stay out of Iran after seeing Bush's popularity plummet and go crashing through the ground. No one is going to risk their chances at re-election unless absolutely necessary
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Oh really? So then please enlighten everyone on this forum as to how America could possibly put a Shah in place when there is already a government set in place that will do everything in their best interest to stay in power. I mean there's a possibility to avoid a war, but it's going to be very hard and more than likely there's gonna be some conflict going on over there involving some bloodshed.
I suppose you've never read anything through out history about countries backing nations of interest with Rebels and to overthrow their own government? You've never heard of covert ops or assassinations? It happens. While I don't necessarily agree with disrupting a government in place I do believe in helping the people to help themselves.
Your bit of sarcasm at the beginning of this statement is condescending and not appreciated. Instead of just stating your opinions they would be better served if you would back them with political and military reasoning or even use a reference from history to back it.
Statements with no content behind them are exactly what they sound like.. empty and without value.
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Lastly, I never said you were a supporter of Obama I was just pointing this out to the other members who were supporters of him.
Point taken
Iran slams Obama's nuclear vow as 'unacceptable'
"I suppose you've never read anything through out history about countries backing nations of interest with Rebels and to overthrow their own government? You've never heard of covert ops or assassinations? It happens. While I don't necessarily agree with disrupting a government in place I do believe in helping the people to help themselves.
Your bit of sarcasm at the beginning of this statement is condescending and not appreciated. Instead of just stating your opinions they would be better served if you would back them with political and military reasoning or even use a reference from history to back it."
Alright well lets see here. America was responsible for the Bay of pigs invasion which ultimately led to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Of course nothing happened as we all should know, however, something really really bad could have gone down and at the time people really thought this could be it. Because we played our cards right we avoided a nuclear war but you can't rule out that it wasn't going to happen. Now here's something you might remember. The assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand by a Serbian Terrorist from the Black hand. Guess what they tried to assassinate a leader to achieve what they wanted but essentially they started WWI. Of course you could also point out a number of other coups that went very smoothly such as the Glorious Revolution led by William of Orange or when Napoleon and other officers ousted the Directory out of France. The point I'm trying to make is that in spite of the fact that getting rid of the Iranian government through the methods which you described could result in peace, it could just as equally fall the other way and ultimately mean war. History shows that things don't always go as planned. Did we expect the Bay of pigs invasion to fall under and cause the Cuban Missile Crisis? No. Did those Serbian terrorists know they would start WWI? Absolutely not, and yet it happened just as ridding the Iranian government could prove fatal. And if you want to look at recent history just look at society around you. If you wach old videos of Bush when he first ran for president many of the things he said sounded similar to Ron Paul. Democracy, constitution, less foreign conflicts blah blah blah. Guess we didn't expect him to fight a war in Iraq. Only time will tell buuuuuuuuuudy.
Iran slams Obama's nuclear vow as 'unacceptable'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dream of the iris
"I suppose you've never read anything through out history about countries backing nations of interest with Rebels and to overthrow their own government? You've never heard of covert ops or assassinations? It happens. While I don't necessarily agree with disrupting a government in place I do believe in helping the people to help themselves.
Your bit of sarcasm at the beginning of this statement is condescending and not appreciated. Instead of just stating your opinions they would be better served if you would back them with political and military reasoning or even use a reference from history to back it."
Alright well lets see here. America was responsible for the Bay of pigs invasion which ultimately led to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Of course nothing happened as we all should know, however, something really really bad could have gone down and at the time people really thought this could be it. Because we played our cards right we avoided a nuclear war but you can't rule out that it wasn't going to happen. Now here's something you might remember. The assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand by a Serbian Terrorist from the Black hand. Guess what they tried to assassinate a leader to achieve what they wanted but essentially they started WWI. Of course you could also point out a number of other coups that went very smoothly such as the Glorious Revolution led by William of Orange or when Napoleon and other officers ousted the Directory out of France. The point I'm trying to make is that in spite of the fact that getting rid of the Iranian government through the methods which you described could result in peace, it could just as equally fall the other way and ultimately mean war. History shows that things don't always go as planned. Did we expect the Bay of pigs invasion to fall under and cause the Cuban Missile Crisis? No. Did those Serbian terrorists know they would start WWI? Absolutely not, and yet it happened just as ridding the Iranian government could prove fatal. And if you want to look at recent history just look at society around you. If you wach old videos of Bush when he first ran for president many of the things he said sounded similar to Ron Paul. Democracy, constitution, less foreign conflicts blah blah blah. Guess we didn't expect him to fight a war in Iraq. Only time will tell buuuuuuuuuudy.
Your arguement originally is that we should not go to war for other people because it's not our responsibility and that they would have more incentive to fight than we would.
So I explain how we can still support the ousting of the Iranian Government without our direct involvement. Like all things there is always risk factors. Nothing is perfect, but it would remove our direct involvement.
It seems that you want to argue just for the sake of arguements.
Like I've said before from the posts I've read from you it seems that you are thinking too far into the future. Before you can determine the risks and consequences you must first determine a course of action and how you intend to meet those goals before you can determine the risks and how to avoid them.
One step at a time. :thumbsup:
btw: good references. I like seeing that more than empty arguments/debates. I know most people on here are very intelligent and enjoy/prefer seeing people's mind in full gear as opposed to just making empty statements. Understand that I was never trying to pick on you but instead draw out something deeper from you.
Thanks for taking the time for the good response. :thumbsup:
Iran slams Obama's nuclear vow as 'unacceptable'
Quote:
Originally Posted by daihashi
The only other way to change a government is to overthrow it either through a covert op or through support of a group inside Iran's own country who will stand up and oppose the current regime. Which I am definitely in support of over the US going to war with Iran.
Looking at this from a pure news standpoint.... How can we feel safe on the streets with crips and bloods flinging bullets around in broad daylight on busy public streets?
How can we feel safe with police supported mafia?
How can we feel safe knowing that cults are manipulating people (we've had two here in texas in the last 15 years)?
What about with serial murderers or rapists?
Or even PETA for that matter (don't get me started on these guys).. their legal form of terrorism is horrible.
Good points!:thumbsup: I could imagine in the eyes of some in other lands, our streets must seem VERY dangerous to travel also.
What are your feelings regarding the nuclear issue? With the current leaders in charge there I myself can't see them being allowed to carry through with their program. I'm not talking of a full scale invasion but maybe some strikes on their facilities to set the clock back on their program. We all know this will eventually be done by Israel whether or not they have our backing, cooperation, or world support.
Have a good one!:s4:
Iran slams Obama's nuclear vow as 'unacceptable'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho4Bud
Good points!:thumbsup: I could imagine in the eyes of some in other lands, our streets must seem VERY dangerous to travel also.
What are your feelings regarding the nuclear issue? With the current leaders in charge there I myself can't see them being allowed to carry through with their program. I'm not talking of a full scale invasion but maybe some strikes on their facilities to set the clock back on their program. We all know this will eventually be done by Israel whether or not they have our backing, cooperation, or world support.
Have a good one!:s4:
Regarding the nuclear issue I feel it needs to be put on halt. Their argument for trying to create energy for their people is a bit far fetched when they are sitting on probably one of the worlds largest oil supplies.
There are definitely other motives at work here, at least in my eyes and would not mind seeing the facilities shut down or even destroyed.
I feel a number of Iranians share similar sentiments.
Keep in mind that I'm pretty much a brown colored white boy. About as American as the next guy.. so I'm not sure if other Persians share the same sentiment or not but from my past interactions with them we generally tend to be on the same page.
I would not mind a nuclear program in place under a stable Republic or Democratic government.
I do see the benefit of a nuclear program there, but not under the current powers that control the region. I do not trust them.
Iran slams Obama's nuclear vow as 'unacceptable'
In regards to Israel.. ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I really hope they don't strike as this would open up a giant can of worms.
As much as I hate supporting Israel I strongly feel that if Israel does make a move that it should not do so without the backing of a strong military power like United States.
Moving on their own would open the door way to their own demise, would create a situation where we have to go in to back them up and overall it would be a larger mess than if we acted together.
If you can't tell I'm disgusted with Israel and Palestine.
While I don't like it, I understand the need for the US to side with Israel in this situation.
