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You need to buy alcohol because it only comes from stores.
But weed is a plant that comes from the ground. Whats the point in buying something that you can grow yourself? The only way that MJ could be controlled the same way alcohol is, is by only allowing government controlled companies to grow. Which would suck ass.
This is partly true, but not totally right.Quote:
Originally Posted by brainface
It's true people mostly buy alcohol, but you can make your own beer and wine, and some people do make thier own. I used to make my own beer, and it was cheap and really good --- just took a little time, effort and upfront expense for the equipment. I think you may even be allowed to make a certain amount of distilled spirits for your own consumption, but I'm not actually sure on that, and almost no one does make their own for safety and quality reasons.
On the subject of things grown in the ground, people mostly buy all their fruit and produce from stores, even though they could grow some of it themselves. Some people grow their own, but not many. For most people, the reason is probably convenience. You could grow your own tobacco in some parts of the country, but almost no one does. The main reason is probably convenience and quality.
So I think that if marijuana were legal and taxed, the government would mostly gain more control. They might not get control over people who just wanted to grow their own and some people who wanted to avoid paying the tax. But most people would probably want to buy it in stores for convenience, quality and legality, and the government would be able to gain control over that portion of the market.
When something is illegal and people want it bad enough, a black market will always emerge to provide it. And then it operates outside of the law, and the government has no control over it. Making it legal allows some kind of control, and people will generally prefer dealing with a safe, legal, and regulated industry rather than a black market one.
I'm almost surprised that some kind of large established industry, like the tobacco or liquor industry, hasn't recognized the potential profit in legal weed and pushed to make it legal.
shit, where can i sign up at?
the bit about alcohol production, not sure if this is exactly right, but I believe if you're an adult aged 18 or older, you can produce something like 5-10 gallons of your own booze every year...Problem with that is the knowledge, time and upkeep...Similar to that of growing pot...Sure people will do it, but I'll guarantee you the utmost majority is going to go to the corner store to pick up an 1/8th rather than waiting four months for that eighth...Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonrider
alcohol is a stupid comparison. and secondly, i dont know who said it, but legalizing would not help in generating revenue. and honostly would lost quite a bit, and create quite a lot of problems for the government in terms of law and prison/jail mates...
Are you saying that alcohol abolition is a bad comparison to marijauna criminalization? Because I think it is a very good comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by solid6
Alcohol abolition created an environment in which people were willing to pay a lot of money for alcohol on the black market. That is what created the gangster culture of the 30's --- Al Capone and the rest. And that amount of money going into the hands of organized crime led to police corruption, violent acts of murder over turf wars, and other forms of crime. Eventually the country decided that whatever evils were attributable to legal alcohol were far outweighed by the problems presented by the black market.
I think the same thing is true for marijauna criminalization. We innocent peace-loving pot smokers don't like to think about it, but unless you grow your own or buy directly from a grower, you can't be sure where your weed comes from. It may actually be supplied by orgniazed crime for all you know. Certainly the large-scale marijana smugglers and distribution networks make tons of illegal money and contribute to police corruption and violent crime. The governemnt has made some anti-drug propaganda messages linking drug use to providing money to terrorists. It's a bit of a stretch, but partly true. Of course, my conclusion would be that if it were legal, that money would not go to organized crime or to terrorists, so it's stupid to shift the blame to the customer. This country needs to decide whether the evils attributable to legal marijuana are equal to the problems presented by the black market, just like we did with alcohol years ago.
As for the issue of revenue. I guess it would be hard to say what the net effects would be, But I think the governemnt would make money if they taxed legal weed. They make a lot of money on alcohol and cigarette taxes. I wasn't sure what you meant by, "would lost quite a bit, and create quite a lot of problems for the government in terms of law and prison/jail mates..." It seems to me the government would make revenue on the taxes and would save money by not paying to catch, prosecute, and imprison people involved with the weed trade. I don't think it would solve the government's budget problems (I was joking about that earlier), but I think they would definitely come out ahead of where they are now.
If you wanted to expand on your idea, I'd be interested to hear it.
Well firstly I dont need a history lesson as I know as well as you do the effects of the prohibition, as does your former president from the Kennedy's.
And the alcohol was in reference to your comment now that I look back and re-read your previous post about making your own spirits post reference to government control.
but now lets elaborate on your theory that legalizing marijuana would reduce taxes and law enforcement against it. So pot is the only war on drug then? thats an interesting conclusion.
So when they stop sniffing out dope, you think there going to give all that money back and cut taxes for federal "war on drugs" campaigns and programs, giving it back to the people?
I dont think so..
Then you have all those drug offenders (marijuana) in those nice, tiny little steel cages. sitting patiently, brewing in hate and irritation, wouldnt that be swell, just letting them free back on the street. of course they will, what other option do they have? its legal now...
but besides that, theres a million things that could be adjudicated but its just not feasible. unfortunately our country is a bit lackadaisical and change is not a easy transition here. our culture, and society at that, is far to free and unafraid of consequence. the balls of steel mentality is quite abundant, whether you like, or believe it or not.
unlike other countries, we had made a choice against it, and it stuck, but luckily for those medical users, they got themselves a break. A much needed one for some, but only in the great state of California. We cant induce a lower drinking age or legalization of drugs, because people are irrational. they are inconsiderate and some are just plain ignorant. the effects of legalizing pot would excavate the fear from those whom hid in their bedrooms smoking spliffs and keeping their dark secret, others freely amongst friends and family, but in the public eye they knew would be blackballed.
I know this because I have seen it, I have lived in many countries, democratic and communist, and I know how changes like this effect its society.
Im a free loving smoker just like im sure all of you are, but unfortunately theres a saying in the army, "theres always one", and thats very true. because unfortunatley theres always going to be one, that fucks it up for everyone else.
But keep the peace, love one another and enjoy your lives. whether you smoke or not I to feel you shouldnt have to hide or be ashamed (in a figurative way) of the good buds you smoke. If it helps you for whatever reason I hail you, and hope that your troubles or conditions can like mine, be blown away by thick green smoke.
cheers
I certainly didn't mean to lecture you on history, but it sounded like you were questioning whether alcohol prohibition was a good comparison to marijauna criminalization. I just wanted to clarify why I think it was a good comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by solid6
When I wrote that, I was responding to the earlier post by Brainface, "You need to buy alcohol because it only comes from stores. But weed is a plant that comes from the ground."Quote:
Originally Posted by solid6
I was just saying you can make alcohol at home legally too. You don't have to buy it in stores. Most people do buy it in stores, but some make it at home. Probably the same thing would happen with marijauna if it were legal.
I didn't make that conclusion --- you made that conclusion. Please don't put words in my mouth and then say I'm wrong. I said that if weed were legal, then the governemnt would save money on catching, prosecuting and imprisoning people for pot crimes that would no longer be illegal. I think that is true. Even if the rest of the so-called "War on Drugs" were to continue the same as it has, it doesn't change the fact that there would be a savings from not having to enforce pot laws if pot were legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by solid6
Again, that's another thing I never said. I said the government would save money. I didn't say they would gve it back to us. I agree with you there --- I don't think they would necessarily give it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by solid6
Well, the fact is those people locked up for marijuana crimes are getting out eventually no matter what. I doubt there are many people in prison for life without possibility of parole for strictly pot crimes. So, yeah, they may be a bit screwed up after their prison experience, but in my opinion they should never have been in there in the first place. And I don't see any good reaaon to keep sending more into prison for the same crimes, just to get screwed up by thier prison experience and eventually be let back out. It is another one of the social costs of criminalization. We end up sending people to prison for relatively harmless marijuana crimes, and while they are there they get turned into REAL criminals and get let back out. I think we should stop doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by solid6
Well, you are probably right that legalization is not very likely. And you are probably right that it wouldn't suddenly make smoking weed socially acceptable. But that doesn't mean there are not good reasons why it should be made legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by solid6
Not everyone would grow weed. It takes a lot of time, money and effort, which are three things people don't really like to spend a lot of. If there were a situation where you could go to the store and get it or grow it yourself, 90% of people would just go to the store. How many people do you know that brew their own beer? Not many I bet. Same idea.
Also, all the government would have to do to make the most money is not only tax it, but also have some kind of fee to pay to be a grower. Some kind of annual fee for something like a growing license so you could grow it yourself and if you wanted to sell it to businesses or start you own to sell what you grow, they could require another license to do so. This would regulate quality by itself because people do not want shitty weed, so it would weed out poor products from shitty growers. Also, having a license required to sell the marijuana to make sure that they are not selling to minors, similar to a liquor store.
To argue that there's more money in keeping it illegal, how do you figure? Every time someone is charged with a crime related to marijuana, they have to take the time to book them, they have to show up in court, and a long list of things. I have never been busted (*knock knock*) but several people I know have and it is a long, drawn out, expensive process that the government pays for. Sure, the "offender" usually has to pay a fine, but the state pays the wage of everyone involved with taking the time out of their day to deal with a "crime" related to something that is as personal of a choice as choosing to drink alcohol. Also, this would not eliminate jobs from the police, it would just make them more productive in actually helping people and stopping crimes that matter rather than arresting marijuana users and causing more harm to their life than marijuana itself.
Most of the people in jail are non-violent drug offenders, so yeah, I'm sure they would be pissed if they were released since they knew all along it was no big deal, but I don't think it would really be a problem.
As far as overall legalization of all drugs, I really don't support it. I recently watched a video of Barry Cooper (Never Get Busted DVD) giving a speech in New Hampshire and he said he feels that if you want to snort meth and spend all day in a bath tub twacked out, then you should be able to. I don't agree with that because meth is a drug that will actually ruin your life, as well as the life of any children and family someone might have. Meth can and will kill people, which I guess is their choice, but they have to be a tweak for the rest of their lives before they die, and who wants to deal with a bunch of legalized tweaks? Marijuana on the other hand is safe and has never killed anyone. I realize that no one should make choices for other people, but I don't think freedom of choice should over ride common sense. Marijuana is a relatively good thing, with no real risks involved, whereas other drugs like meth, heroin, etc. can hook you and completely dominate your life.
Well those are just my thoughts on the subject. :stoned:
Peace.
^^^ You make some great points here. I totally agree.