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Where does Christ state that he was God? I'm aware of the "I Am" references, and fully believe that Christ had the fullness of God within him bodily, but did he speak of himself when he taught, or of the father that dwelt in Him?
The Word was before Jesus [The Man] it is my opinion that the Word is eternal, unlike Jesus whom was born of a woman. I believe the Word is God's Spirit, that which was made manifest in Christ, and decreed before the beginning of the world.
junkyard said:
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You believe Jesus was the Word; does this mean you also believe Jesus was God, then? I'm somewhat in agreement, jd. Only I view the Word to be what he possessed rather than what he was. Was Jesus [the man] in the beginning, or the [Spirit] that manifest itself in Christ bodily?
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John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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John 14:10-11, 16-18.
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake....
...16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
[QUOTE
John 1:1-4
]1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ is God in th flesh, just as the bible says. He is the word of God. He is one both with the father and the spirit. The word is Spirit, and is a manifestion of God's Spirit.
Gandolf said:
That's because God is eternal.Quote:
Well, what I usually hear is that god was already, existing forever without beginning. Of course then theists insist that the universe couldn't have existed forever, that it must have had a beginning, and a beginning must have a creator. But the creator himself.... on no, that just works out by itself, nobody had to create him.
junkyard:
several times. How about I am the way, the truth and the light. And the I am statement, he conceded right there. And in the above post I made. And others I believe.Quote:
Where does Christ state that he was God?
It says he is the word not has the word.Quote:
The Word was before Jesus [The Man] it is my opinion that the Word is eternal, unlike Jesus whom was born of a woman. I believe the Word is God's Spirit, that which was made manifest in Christ, and decreed before the beginning of the world.
â??God is loveâ? (1 John 4:7-17) Love is the very essence or â??Spiritâ? of God, and Christ was the manifestation of that essence. Jesus was Godâ??s only begotten son; the fullness of God dwelt within His human body. (Colossians 2:9) This does not suggest that Christ was God himself, but rather a vessel of Godâ??s spirit. Born of the flesh and of the Spirit, Christ possessed both a divine nature and a human nature. He experienced the human struggle fully, yet through the indwelling of Godâ??s Spirit, he was able to conquer the carnal attributes of his flesh .Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
(John 1:1-14)
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The scripture quoted above speaks of the Word of God and its manifestation in Christ, the only â??begottenâ?? of the father. When reading these passages, it is helpful to keep in mind that when Christ taught, he did not teach of himself, (The man) but of the father that dwelt in him. (The Spirit) This helps to form a more accurate view when discerning Johns teaching on the Word, imo.
Christ himself speaks of the Word as being something he possessed rather than something he was; this suggests to me that Jesus was not the literal Word, but rather a vessel for the Word.
John 5:24 24.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 8:31-32
31. Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples;
32. and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Christ speaks of Godâ??s â??Spiritâ? in John 14, which again, is the fullness of God that dwelt within him bodily. Christ and the father were in complete unity through this spirit, and of one accord. (See also: John 10:30)
(John 14:10-11)
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Those who embrace Godâ??s word are made clean through its power. Christ speaks of this to His disciples whom had received it in heart. They followed Christ in truth, becoming one with Him, and in unity with the spirit that dwelt in Him. We are to do the same, becoming Christâ??s disciples also. We are to worship God in the beauty of holiness, and in spirit, and in truth. Only with a pure love can we do this.
(John 15:1--17)
1. "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.
4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
7. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
8. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.
9. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.
10. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
11. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12. "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14. You are my friends if you do what I command you.
15. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
16. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
17. This I command you, to love one another.
Christ tells us above to abide in his love, which is Godâ??s â??Wordâ?, whereby we are made clean, becoming his disciples. This was stated previously by Christ in John 8:31-32 "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." Godâ??s word is His Spirit, which manifest itself in Christ. Born of this Spirit, (Godâ??s essence) Christ commanded that we love one another as he has loved us. Paul also speaks to this in Ephesians:
(Ephesians 3:14-19)
14. For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15. from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,
16. that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with might through his Spirit in the inner man,
17. and that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18. may have power to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19. and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
The only way to comprehend Godâ??s fullness, is by experiencing His love on a personal level. Through His love we die to our natural selves and become a new man â??createdâ?? in the likeness of God. We die to that which harms us inwardly, and to the things which cause us to offend others. We in short die to sin, and to the roots thereof. We can accomplish nothing of ourselves, but through the Spirit, we become new creatures in Christ.
Christ is our salvation, but he wasn't God, imo. He was God's only 'begotten' son, full of God's Grace and Truth.
Junk
Jesus is the Father
Jesus is the Son
Jesus is the Holy Spirit
I can back it up with scripture if you like. :jointsmile:
Where have you been? I haven't seen you around for a while. then again, I do frequent the boardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
And when has anyone ever had a problem finding scripture to back up their view? :p
My wife and daughter just got back from France this week. I've been spending time with them. :thumbsup:
And you are correct about backing it up with scripture. The bible appears to contradict itself, but it really doesn't.
People use scripture to say what they like, but we need to compare scripture with scripture to come to the truth.
The word fits together perfectly like your favorite puzzle. :jointsmile:
I'd love to have a discussion on this, if only to expand my own view. :hint hint:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
We're bringing out the Big Book boys!! :D
Btw, how are the ladies? Your decorated WW looked pretty good last christmas. :cool:
Junk
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"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."
--MATTHEW 1:23
He didn't say I have the light of this world. He said I am. God is the light of this world.Quote:
John 8:12
12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
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Jesus]...author of eternal salvation...
-- Heb 5:9
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"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11
Jesus is the only Saviour.
...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18
...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1
...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42
...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4
a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4:12
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Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; .....
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
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I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24
U]nto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10
[B]y him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
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I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
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"[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5
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... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18
And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6
And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
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...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6
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I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
[A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23
But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
[O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2Quote:
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
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[Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25
[T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22
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[T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26
In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
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"...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
--Philippians 2:5-8
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"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7
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"Hereby perceive we the love of GOD, because he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for us...
--1 John 3:16
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"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon GOD, and saying, LORD JESUS, receive my spirit."
--Acts 7:59
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"GOD...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his SON...who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON..."
--Hebrews 1:1-3
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"For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
-- Colossians 2:9
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"The voice of him [John the Baptist] that crieth in the wilderness, PREPARE ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway FOR OUR GOD."
-- Isaiah 40:3
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"The Jews answered [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
-- John 10:33
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2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1 John 4:2-4
I confess that Jesus Christ is God, that he is come in the flesh.Quote:
Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.