Bush's success in Iraq.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by medicinal

I'm curious, outside of cut and run or stay the course, what is your esteemed solution?

---

while the hawks are drooling over the prospect of the annihilation of the enemy and the doves are screaming for us to pull out at any cost, most folks just want to see a rational and honorable end to our iraqi debacle. a gradual reduction in force coupled with a strengthening of the iraqi forces would seem to be the logical conclusion and this is what the current administration claims to be their goal.

anyone who believes that this war can be won by an indefinite occupation is a fool and those that advocate immediate withdrawal are heartless. the former is a sure fire recipe for decades of pointless bloodshed with our occupation as the rallying point for terrorist organizations around the world. the latter course would only serve to embolden the enemies of the west and further destroy our already tarnished reputation. to abruptly pull our troops out of the area would be to abandon our few friends in the middle east to a bloodbath such as we saw on our departure from vietnam and to add cowardice to the long list of american sins.

though our sojourn in iraq was both ill advised and poorly planned, we bear the responsibility to complete the mission to the best of our ability. even those of us who opposed this fiasco from the beginning are responsible for the actions of the government we created. in short, there is no simple answer. we should have burned down this monstrous bureaucracy long ago and taken back control of our own destiny, but we didn't and fools like baby bush and his crusade are the price we now have to pay for our self-centered apathy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by delusionsofNORMALity

while the hawks are drooling over the prospect of the annihilation of the enemy and the doves are screaming for us to pull out at any cost, most folks just want to see a rational and honorable end to our iraqi debacle. a gradual reduction in force coupled with a strengthening of the iraqi forces would seem to be the logical conclusion and this is what the current administration claims to be their goal.

anyone who believes that this war can be won by an indefinite occupation is a fool and those that advocate immediate withdrawal are heartless. the former is a sure fire recipe for decades of pointless bloodshed with our occupation as the rallying point for terrorist organizations around the world. the latter course would only serve to embolden the enemies of the west and further destroy our already tarnished reputation. to abruptly pull our troops out of the area would be to abandon our few friends in the middle east to a bloodbath such as we saw on our departure from vietnam and to add cowardice to the long list of american sins.

though our sojourn in iraq was both ill advised and poorly planned, we bear the responsibility to complete the mission to the best of our ability. even those of us who opposed this fiasco from the beginning are responsible for the actions of the government we created. in short, there is no simple answer. we should have burned down this monstrous bureaucracy long ago and taken back control of our own destiny, but we didn't and fools like baby bush and his crusade are the price we now have to pay for our self-centered apathy.

---

So in other words, you have no solution, Just hang out and let more Americans get killed while the Iraqis fiddlefuck around and have no political validity. The Iraqis are not going to sanction those oil laws drawn up in washington by Standard oil and Condi rice and the gang, so there is a Mexican (Iraqi) standoff where Americans are dying in the hundreds monthly, Brilliant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by medicinal

You don't get it! We, the taxpayers, are funding the war so the elites, captains of industry, and the oil barrons can reap the rewards. You and I will never see a nickle of the profits made on this war, but we and our great grandkids will be paying for it for a long while.

---

thats for sure. thats the sole reason i will never join the military, im not about to put my life on the line for federal reserve dollars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by medicinal

So in other words, you have no solution, Just hang out and let more Americans get killed while the Iraqis fiddlefuck around ....

---

i guess i just wasn't obvious enough for you. how about replacing "strengthening of iraqi forces" with "force the iraqis to take control of their own defense through a series of time lines and decreases in american forces". did you expect there to be a solution without further bloodshed? fat freakin' chance, we're gonna be stuck in that damn sand box for years to come. in case you have forgotten them, i will reiterate two basic truths of the grand bureaucratic farce. first, governments start wars (this is one of the few things they are good at and you should always play to your strengths). second, children die in wars (i have nothing even close to witty to say about this depressing fact).

this tendency that so many have to harp on the half-truth that this is a war for oil is just about as useless as balls on a priest and about as honest as the entire "bringing democracy to the middle-east" myth. this was always a war about protecting american interests. financial, political, philosophical, societal etc. etc. etc. for decades it has all been about the westernization of the globe and the expansion of the "american way of life". so it really doesn't matter that there are a number of "solutions" when none of them serve the underlying agenda.

i find myself reminded of the reason i dropped out so long ago and why i insist on playing these silly games of devil's advocate here. there is nothing more asinine than politics and politics seems to make the world go 'round. well, have fun and good luck.



i seem to be feeling particularly apathetic today or maybe i just need to get laid. perhaps i should just over-medicate and hope things look better when i come to, if i come to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by medicinal

If you are referring to Iraq, I would get all the transportation I could find and gather up all the Americans and head for Kuwait to await transport back to the world and fuck the crazy Iraqis and their infernal sectarian war. when they sort it out, then we can Begin to negotiate for the oil reserves. We both know this is about the oil, so let them get their war over with first, the oil will remain in the ground just waiting for our Oil Barrons to show up and secure it. as far as the damage we've done to Iraq, when the oil begins to flow, they will be the richest nation on earth. Every man woman and child will be well off. The oil sharing laws are designed to share the wealth. The US and Briton are trying to write themselves into the laws and that is what is causing the governmental turmoil in Iraq. When we leave, there will be a much higher chance of making the government work. there will be some disturbances and I'd bet a new president and a few other members of parliment or whatever they call their government, but we are the main problem. So my first priority would be to get the fuck out.

---

This war was started to keep Iraqi oil in the ground. Saddam's biggest crime was not WMDs - it was developing Iraqi oil fields.

This was never about getting Iraqi oil. Their fields/oil rights were divided in the 1920's, with the intent to keep the oil in the ground to keep supplies down.

PC:pimp:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PharmaCan

This war was started to keep Iraqi oil in the ground. Saddam's biggest crime was not WMDs - it was developing Iraqi oil fields.

This was never about getting Iraqi oil. Their fields/oil rights were divided in the 1920's, with the intent to keep the oil in the ground to keep supplies down.

PC:pimp:

---

Maybe that is the deal they had worked out with Sadam, or his predecessors, But this is now and the oil Barons are lunging at the gates. With 3.00++ a gallon gas, you better believe this is about oil. With the oil contracts the US has forced on the Iraqi government, the Iraqis only get 15% of all the new reserves, the largest in the world, maybe 2nd largest, but huge. So if you are trying to convince me that they want to leave this oil in the ground when they will make 10 times the profit on it than say the Saudi oil, get real. All they have to do is extract the oil, it's like drilling for water, it's everywhere, then transport it to the docks, and Viola, instant profit.

medicinal, et al

While most folks want an 'active' solution to the war (i.e. major change), some sort of slow changeover as described by delusions is really the only way it can realistically be done given the current level of conflict.

Our national leadership from both parties endorses this solution, their only real (hyped to the max) differences are in troop levels to authorize and the timeline for completion [even if we don't call it a 'timeline'].

Also, as you pointed out, Big Oil has a vested interest to protect no matter who's in the White House or in control of Congress. There's more to the Iraq war than oil, but you can be assured it underlies ever aspect of our policies.

Lastly, I am as unhappy as are most about this 'war', from the lies told us to start it to the quagmire we find ourselves in now. But, I have seen firsthand the horrors of genocide in Bosnia and Africa, and cannot condone a sudden departure from Iraq without some hope of stability for it's people.

Peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by medicinal

Maybe that is the deal they had worked out with Sadam, or his predecessors, But this is now and the oil Barons are lunging at the gates. With 3.00++ a gallon gas, you better believe this is about oil. With the oil contracts the US has forced on the Iraqi government, the Iraqis only get 15% of all the new reserves, the largest in the world, maybe 2nd largest, but huge. So if you are trying to convince me that they want to leave this oil in the ground when they will make 10 times the profit on it than say the Saudi oil, get real. All they have to do is extract the oil, it's like drilling for water, it's everywhere, then transport it to the docks, and Viola, instant profit.

---

And, under your scenario, oil prices plummet. Meaning more oil has to be pumped and sold to make the same profits as now.

Google "Royal dutch shell, mr. 5% and Iraq" together. Then do your research. Then you will have a much better picture of the "why" about Iraq.

PC :pimp:

Ah, "Bush's Success in Iraq...", one of the shortest books ever written.

It's up there with "Victories of the War on Drugs", "Catholic Tolerance", "The Sahara-a Tourism Guide", etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PharmaCan

And, under your scenario, oil prices plummet. Meaning more oil has to be pumped and sold to make the same profits as now.

Google "Royal dutch shell, mr. 5% and Iraq" together. Then do your research. Then you will have a much better picture of the "why" about Iraq.

PC :pimp:

---

I read that crap, that was when oil was 5 bucks a barrel. The Oil companies would get as much out of the ground as they could and bring it here and put it back in the ground. Have you heard of storing oil in our depleted oil fields, a real safe way to ensure they have plenty to sell when it hits 5-10 bucks a gallon. They aren't going to be paying more that 10 bucks a barrel + transport and extraction costs if that much, and don't you think they will even be trying to screw the Iraqis out of as much of that as they can