loose change

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Originally Posted by khronik

The airplane's wings broke off before making that hole, obviously. Anyway, here's a page that explains a lot of why that video is nonsense:

Loose Change 2nd Edition Viewer Guide

If we tighten border security too much, that hinders international trade. Al-Queida's main goal when attacking the World TRADE Center was screwing with international trade, not killing Americans. Anyway, it hardly seems right to further the goals of Al-Queida in order to protect the US from terrorism. Besides, most people that are proponents of border security have ulterior motives (ie, they don't like mexicans coming into the US) that have nothing to do with terrorism.

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Then where are the wings - they are nowhere to be seen in the photos or videos taken immediately after the crash.

There is no ulterior motive in wanting to protect our country from an invasion of third-world trash. If I wanted to live in Mexico, I would move there. Mexico and Mexicans are invading our country and trying to turn it into another third-world latin american shit-hole. If you like Mexicans so fucking much, go live in Mexico. But secure our borders and keep that filthy trash on their own side.

And terrorists are entering our country across the Southern border. This is proven fact.

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Originally Posted by PharmaCan

Then where are the wings - they are nowhere to be seen in the photos or videos taken immediately after the crash.

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They were in many pieces, wedged inside the pentagon on the first floor. The photos in the loose change video have smoke and fire-retardant foam obscuring the part where the wings hit. Anyway, you can see the damage and the trajectory more clearly in this picture than in the picture in the loose change video.

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There is no ulterior motive in wanting to protect our country from an invasion of third-world trash. If I wanted to live in Mexico, I would move there. Mexico and Mexicans are invading our country and trying to turn it into another third-world latin american shit-hole. If you like Mexicans so fucking much, go live in Mexico. But secure our borders and keep that filthy trash on their own side.

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Well, at least we've established that the main reason you're concerned with border security has little to do with terrorism. Bush doesn't care about mexicans coming to the US because they help our economy. Illegal immigrants pay taxes, but don't get any benefits, and they'll work for very little. As is the case with most republicans, he cares more about businesses than individuals. Anyway, our country has had plenty of waves of "trash" from ireland, poland, china, italy, eastern europe, etc, and they've all pretty much assimilated into our society now. I imagine it'll be the same for mexicans.

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And terrorists are entering our country across the Southern border. This is proven fact.

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Do you have any details? I know terrorists have tried to come through canada via the UK, but I don't recall anything about terrorists coming through mexico.

One person mentioned that you'd have to be insane to think the government orchestrated the whole 9/11 events simply because they can't keep a CIA agent's name secret yade yade. Chew on this for a sec: what makes you so sure 1,000's or even hundreds of people were involved with this? The less people that know the better. Obviously an attack of this scale would need as few people as possible. It could have been pulled off with as little as 10 or less people knowing the real truth inside inner circles. In fact, it is not even likely Bush knew about it since the president has historically been merely a puppet.

If you think it is so far fetched read this snipped from wikipedia about the reichstag fire during Hitler's rise to power:

"Having become Chancellor, Hitler foiled all attempts to gain a majority in parliament and on that basis persuaded President Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag again. Elections were scheduled for early March, but on February 27, 1933, the Reichstag building was set on fire.[27] Since a Dutch independent communist was found in the building, the fire was blamed on a Communist plot to which the government reacted with the Reichstag Fire Decree of February 28, which suspended basic rights, including habeas corpus. Under the provisions of this decree, the German Communist Party and other groups were suppressed, and communist functionaries and deputies were arrested, put to flight, or murdered.

Campaigning continued, with the Nazis making use of paramilitary violence, anti-Communist hysteria, and the government's resources for propaganda. On election day, March 6, the NSDAP increased its result to 43.9% of the vote, remaining the largest party, but its victory was marred by its failure to secure an absolute majority, necessitating maintaining a coalition with the DNVP."


The global police state is upon us my friends.

You have to admit, there is a lot more freedom of information in the US than in Nazi Germany. Anyway, it surprises me that anyone would believe a video with heaps and heaps of proven misinformation, rather than the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I will give you, the Bush administration very well may have ignored CIA intelligence regarding a terrorist strike, figuring that a terrorist strike might work to his advantage if it did happen. But that's a long way from saying the government planned the whole thing out.

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Originally Posted by khronik

T

Well, at least we've established that the main reason you're concerned with border security has little to do with terrorism. Bush doesn't care about mexicans coming to the US because they help our economy. Illegal immigrants pay taxes, but don't get any benefits, and they'll work for very little. As is the case with most republicans, he cares more about businesses than individuals. Anyway, our country has had plenty of waves of "trash" from ireland, poland, china, italy, eastern europe, etc, and they've all pretty much assimilated into our society now. I imagine it'll be the same for mexicans.

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These statements are sooo naive. The third-world trash from south of our border has no intention of assimilating into American society and they have stated as much. If you have never heard of Reconquista or Aztlan, you need to have your eyes opened. This is not immigration, it is an invasion! And the stated purpose is to turn the American Southwest in an Hispanic territory.

Illegal immigrants are a tremendous burden on American taxpayers - i.e. American citizens and legal immigrants. They pay little or nothing in taxes and collect immense amounts in benefits. The Heritage Foundation has calulated that the cost of the amnesty currently being considered in the Senate will be 2.4 Trillion dollars over 20 years - NET COST TO AMERICAN TAXPAYERS.

Get your facts straight before you make statements like this 'cause right now all you are doing is repeating liberal propaganda for which you have neither substantiation nor basis in fact.

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Originally Posted by khronik

You have to admit, there is a lot more freedom of information in the US than in Nazi Germany. Anyway, it surprises me that anyone would believe a video with heaps and heaps of proven misinformation, rather than the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I will give you, the Bush administration very well may have ignored CIA intelligence regarding a terrorist strike, figuring that a terrorist strike might work to his advantage if it did happen. But that's a long way from saying the government planned the whole thing out.

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How many pilots and Boeing engineers need to say that a 737 (or whatever it was) cannot be flown in the manner it would have had to be flown to impact the pentagon before you believe that the aircraft cannot be flown that way?

Provide photoevidence that it was a boeing aircraft that strck the pentagon. Not hyperbole, EVIDENCE! Even one or two photos showing pieces of the aircraft outside the pentagon will do. (The wings would have sheared off and remained outside the building if the official story were true.)

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Originally Posted by PharmaCan

These statements are sooo naive. The third-world trash from south of our border has no intention of assimilating into American society and they have stated as much. If you have never heard of Reconquista or Aztlan, you need to have your eyes opened. This is not immigration, it is an invasion! And the stated purpose is to turn the American Southwest in an Hispanic territory.

Illegal immigrants are a tremendous burden on American taxpayers - i.e. American citizens and legal immigrants. They pay little or nothing in taxes and collect immense amounts in benefits. The Heritage Foundation has calulated that the cost of the amnesty currently being considered in the Senate will be 2.4 Trillion dollars over 20 years - NET COST TO AMERICAN TAXPAYERS.

Get your facts straight before you make statements like this 'cause right now all you are doing is repeating liberal propaganda for which you have neither substantiation nor basis in fact.

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Heh, well I guess you're right about the cost of illegal immigration, although to be fair, the cost is generally associated with their US-born children, and not the immigrants themselves. To be fair though, I was spouting conservative (libertarian) propaganda, not liberal propaganda. :thumbsup:

Anyway, saying those groups you mentioned represent all illegal immigrants is like saying groups like NAMBLA represent all gays. Most immigrants, both illegal and legal, are just concerned with providing for their families.

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How many pilots and Boeing engineers need to say that a 737 (or whatever it was) cannot be flown in the manner it would have had to be flown to impact the pentagon before you believe that the aircraft cannot be flown that way?

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Originally Posted by Loose Change

"[Flight 77] could not possibly have flown at those speeds which they said it did without going into a high speed stall."
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"The airplane won't go that fast when you start pulling those high G maneuvers. That plane would have fallen out of the sky..."
-Russ Wittenburg, commercial and Air Force Pilot who flew two of the planes used on 9/11, WingTV

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Russ Wittenburg did not fly two of the planes used on 9/11, he flew Boeing 757s and 767s -- two of the types of planes used on 9/11. Wittenburg may be correct that flying a 757 at 532 mph at low altitude -- the approach speed given in FEMA's Pentagon Building Performance Report -- would precipitate a high-speed stall. However, that doesn't support Loose Change's conclusion that the attack plane was not a 757. Perhaps it was flying at only 400 mph. At that speed, it would only have been pulling about 0.57 Gs -- well under the performance ratings of a 757.

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Originally Posted by Loose Change

"The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought ... all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane"
-Danielle O'Brien, ATC at Dulles International Airport ABCNews (9/14/01)

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This is misleading because it omits context. In the ABCNews article, O'Brien goes on to say "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe," making it clear that the air traffic controllers' opinion was based on the way the plane was being flown. The implication that the maneuvers were beyond the capabilities of a 757 is false.

I was going to post some more quotes from this debunking site, but maybe it'd be easier to read it yourself.

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Provide photoevidence that it was a boeing aircraft that strck the pentagon. Not hyperbole, EVIDENCE! Even one or two photos showing pieces of the aircraft outside the pentagon will do. (The wings would have sheared off and remained outside the building if the official story were true.)

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The wings were pulled with the plane, and folded back some, kind of like what would happen if you tried to push an open umbrella tip first into a hole. The wings are connected very strongly to the body, after all they have to hold it up, so they wouldn't just shear off like you said. I worked as an engineer for Honeywell, which makes a lot of aviation subsystems, so just so you know I'm not pulling this out of my ass.

Well, KhroniK, neither of us is going to change the other's mind. Just to be clear, I'm not claiming to know what happened on 9/11. However, there are so many unanswered questions that the official explanation just isn't believable.

I remember sitting in front of my TV on 9/11 and watching the twin towers collapse and wondering what had brought them down because it was obvious that it wasn't the aircraft or the fires.

Most people don't know that jet fuel is just kerosene. They think it's some kind of super exotic fuel. If people were told from the start that the towers were doused with kerosene and lit on fire and that made them collapse, the whole country would have collectively said, "Yeah, right." because it is just so unbelievable. But "jet fuel" oooohhhh - that must be really powerful stuff.

...and I can see why P4B has to rule this area with an iron fist. You get into these kinda discussions and you just wanna scream, "Well you stupid SOB yada yada yada" - and I'm sure the person on the other end of the conversation is thinking the exact same thing. LOL

Live long and prosper

PC :pimp:

Heh, alright, I can't stay here too long, I told my girlfriend I'd be over tonight, but I just wanted to touch on the kerosene deal.

First, there was a lot of the stuff, and it was burning inside the building. Second, although it takes a lot more heat to melt steel than kerosene can provide, if you heat steel to the temperatures they calculate it approached, it loses a lot of its strength. If just a few key beams yield, the weight from the floor above it causes it to collapse, pretty much like what happened on all the videos of the towers collapsing.

If there were bombs, the towers would have collapsed right after the explosions, but the kerosene had to burn for a while before the towers collapsed.