Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
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Originally Posted by jsn9333
Before you go and say what crazy motherfuckers like the Westboro Baptist people do "makes sense from a Biblical perspective" how about you read the Bible yourself. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but have you ever read the entire New Testament of the Bible (that is the part Christians primarily follow)? Have you?
Well, yes, as a matter of fact I have. It is from the New Testament that Christians get the idea of hell, this idea that sinners deserve to be tortured forever, which I think is a lot of the source of intolerance. Jews don't believe in hell, because they read only the Old Testament. Hell was a concept introduced by Jesus, and it is without a doubt the most baneful idea in the whole damn book. Nobody deserves eternal torture, because we are only capable of doing a finite amount of bad things in our finite lifetimes. Anybody who inflicts eternal torture on anyone is committing the most immoral act imaginable.
You mention that the New Testament is the part that Christians primarily follow, and I wholeheartedly agree (although people nowadays are willing to ignore those bits of the New Testament that promote things like slavery and women's subjugation). The reason Christians don't take the majority of their holy book seriously is because the Old Testament God is such a malevolent prick.
The Westboro Baptist Church is honest enough to say "Well, if we're publishing this book here and calling it sacred, we ought to take all of its contents seriously." Unlike the average Christian who only believes Biblical morality only insofar as it agrees with his already-formed pre-theistic morality, these people actually believe the Bible is more authoritative on morality than any of their preconceived notions of what is right or wrong. And that's the logical point of view to take, if you believe God is infinitely moral and if you believe the Bible is an accurate portrayal of that God's morality.
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Because if not, I suggest you do before you go saying what makes sense "Biblically". Anyone can rip out of context one passage about what behavior may or may not be a sin and use it to justify yelling insults at people. But read the Bible as a whole before you say that is "biblical" behavior.
Well, there are some verses whose meaning cannot really be contested, if you take the verse seriously. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13) That can only mean that God considers gay male sex a crime worthy of death. What justification does a Christian really have to take God seriously in Exodus 20 (the Ten Commandments) but not Leviticus 20?
You can say that this is just the laws of an ancient barbaric tribe of nomads who lacked modern sophisticated moral philosophy, which they wrote into a holy book and falsely attributed to the mouth of the creator of the universe. I would agree with you, but I would go further and say that this is the origin of all Mosaic law, not just a few verses that don't mesh with our modern understanding of ethics.
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Most Christians in America hate the Westboro assholes. And most Christians don't hate homosexuals.
Right, because they don't take the Bible nearly as seriously as they do.
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Most Christians in America are not even fundamentalists.
Well, it may not be "most" but fundamentalist Christianity is no tiny fringe group. A surprising percentage of the American population believes in a literal six-day creation.
Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation
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Its the idiots like Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson that give Christians a bad name. And to be quite honest (since I am a "fundamentalist Baptist"), most fundamentalists don't even like half of what Falwell or Robertson say!
Good.
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Sure, God hates sin, and "fundies" like me see the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. But that doesn't mean God hates homosexuals any more then he hates a kid who tells a white lie. And that especially doesn't mean we're called, as Christians, to hate anyone.
No, sorry, you're wrong, and you need to re-read your Bible. God never calls for the execution of kids who tell white lies (although he does call for the execution of disobedient children in Deuteronomy 21). God does say that all gay men should be murdered, that their activity is a sin, and that sinners deserve everlasting punishment. If you honestly believe that my gay and lesbian friends deserve to be tortured for all eternity because of what they do in the bedroom, then you obviously hate my friends. That's like saying Jews deserve to be burned in gas chambers, but it's up to a higher power (like Hitler) to dish out the punishment, so it can't be said that you personally hate the Jews. Bullshit. If you think Jews deserve to be burned in gas chambers, you hate the Jews, and if you think gays and lesbians deserve to be burned in hell, you hate gays and lesbians.
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
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Originally Posted by jsn9333
Sure, God hates sin, and "fundies" like me see the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. But that doesn't mean God hates homosexuals any more then he hates a kid who tells a white lie. And that especially doesn't mean we're called, as Christians, to hate anyone.
Did he condone what they did as far as their sin (be it prostitution, homosexuality, stealing, whatever)? No. But he gently, through simply friendship and discussion, tried to point them in the right direction.
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
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Originally Posted by jsn9333
If you think the Westboro crazies are following the Christian Scriptures, please show me the verses. It should be easy since you're saying they are just following the Christian Scriptures "literally".
^^^Sadly I did just that :-(. I mean no disrespect just quoting the "word of god"
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
The "word of God" is by far the most controversial literature known to man. By the way, you pointed out old testament scriptures. The new testatment is a "new" message. It's about hope. Hope in the LORD. Jesus is our HOPE. His death and resurrection was witnessed by man. That's why this man still has followers until this day and will forever. So for those who look for historical proof, the proof is in the pudding. It's in just about every household. Where do you think these religious traditions come from? Are they not based on actual events in history?
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
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Originally Posted by Pass That Shit
So for those who look for historical proof, the proof is in the pudding. It's in just about every household. Where do you think these religious traditions come from? Are they not based on actual events in history?
Proof of what? Appeal to common belief is a logical fallacy if thats what your trying to do. Only about 33% of the worlds population are classified as Christians anyway. I agree completely that religious traditions are BASED on some actual events in history and the resulting interpretation and embelishment of that history largely for political purposes.
You will need to do better than gives "HOPE" and appeal to common belief (more people disbelieve than believe anyway) to have a logical argument for the idea of a christian god (I assume this is what your attemting).
(awaits the use of pascals wager):D
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
I saw this a while ago on Break.com, those people are fuckin' assholes...
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
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Originally Posted by OniEhtRedrum781
I saw this a while ago on Break.com, those people are fuckin' assholes...
I agree. Sick sick family. I feel sorry for the kids.
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
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Originally Posted by Oneironaut
Well, yes, as a matter of fact I have... If you think Jews deserve to be burned in gas chambers, you hate the Jews, and if you think gays and lesbians deserve to be burned in hell, you hate gays and lesbians.
The fact that the Christian Scriptures teach that sinners who haven't received Christ's forgiveness go to hell doesn't mean they also teach Christians should scream insults at them and mock their dead. Its that simple. In fact, in my post above I already showed two verses from the New Testament that teach just the opposite... that we are to be gentle, kind, loving, and respectful toward non-Christians. It is possible to believe someone is committing an action which may lead to severe punishment and still be gentle, kind, loving, and respectful toward them. And in fact, that is exactly what the Christian Scriptures call us to do. And you have yet to show otherwise. The entire point of Christianity is that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament. It is based on the teachings of Christ and his disciples (hence "Christ"-ianity) found in the New Testament. Christ changed things. We no longer follow the Old Testmant unless its commands are repeated in the New (as is the case with the 10 commandments you bring up).
The animal sacrifices are not repeated in the New Testament... hence no Christians practice that. Killing people for sexual sins is not repeated hence Christians don't practice that (and Christ even stopped people from stoning a woman for sexual immorality in the New Testament).
God teaches that those who rebel against Him and his morals go to hell. But He also teaches that Christians should be gentle, respectful, kind, and loving toward those who are rebelling... in order to hopefully persuade them that God has their best interest in mind and does not want them to go to hell. 1 Tim. 2:4 says God wants "all men to be saved," and the verses I cited above say we're to be kind and respectful to non-Christians to hopefully persuade them of the truth.
You can cite all the Old Testament verses you want to prove your ill-conceived misconceptions about Christianity... but again, the Old Testament isn't what Christianity is based on. And the Westboro Baptists are not what Christianity is based on. It is based on the New Testament. And you have not been able to answer my New Testament verses showing that love, gentleness, respect, and kindness are the ways Christians are called to treat non-Christians. You haven't even produced a single applicable verse.
I've got family members I love who are homosexuals. They know where I stand (only because they've asked). But they also aren't idiots. They know that it would be just as "intolerant" for me to misrepresent and/or disrespect them for their religious and sexual beliefs as it would be for them to disrespect me for mine. Arguing about whether or not the belief in eternal hell is a "moral belief" (and for that matter, whether or not beliefs in and of themselves can even be moral or immoral) is pointless... without an authoritative moral Being or Guide we both submit to, neither of us can be sure the other is right. All we can do is co-exist peacefully and respectfully.
Also, I didn't say God ordered the execution of kids who tell white lies. I said he doesn't hate homosexuals any more than he hates people who tell white lies. He hates sin, but loved the world so much he died for it. He wants those who are disobedient to turn from their sin and be forgiven. While you (along with the Westboro crazies) focus only on the "hate" of God, you ignore the ultimate act of love God committed on the cross... and in doing so you make yourself look as close-minded and blind to love as you try to make Christians out to be.
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
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Originally Posted by The Green Reaper
Kill Homosexuals
... Infidels and Gays Should Die... etc.
See my post to Oneironaut literally right above this response of mine. He made a lot of the same points you made.
The only difference being that you at least cited a New Testament verse. But again, I've already given two verses showing Christians are called to be respectful, kind, loving, and gentle in their interactions with non-Christians. Sure, you've shown a verse in which God says homosexuality is a sin that he hates, and that it is evil in the same category as lying, murder, greed, etc... we all know the Bible teaches that it is a sin (in both the Old and the New Testaments).
But that doesn't negate the fact that the Christian Scriptures call Christians to treat homosexuals and any other non-Christian with respect, kindness, love, and gentleness when we interact with them. What we believe about the morality of their lifestyle and how we treat them personally are two different things.
I approached everything else in your post in the response to Oneironaut just above this one.
Westboro Baptist Church: The Most Hated Family In America
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Originally Posted by jsn9333
But that doesn't negate the fact that the Christian Scriptures call Christians to treat homosexuals and any other non-Christian with respect, kindness, love, and gentleness when we interact with them. What we believe about the morality of their lifestyle and how we treat them personally are two different things.
But did Jesus not say "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)?
When Jesus himself says that not one jot or one tittle of Mosaic law can be changed, what justification do Christians have for rejecting the Old Testament laws that say to perform ritual animal sacrifices, kill homosexual men, kill disobedient children, kill adulterers, and kill people who work on the Sabbath? How could God possibly change his mind on what we are supposed to do in these situations, if he is infinitely wise to begin with? If you believe the Old Testament (which includes the Ten Commandments alongside those other, more barbaric laws) to be the word of an omniscient God, then that word ought to be eternally true.
"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." (Psalm 119:160)
